"The Problem With Disney Fans"

Big Phil

Well-Known Member
I think people have to remember, the person who had the imagination to do all of these original ideas (non-IP) has been dead for 53 years. I wish someone else would step up, but it is like asking why there hasn't been a home run hitter better than Babe Ruth. He was the best at what he did, that's why. I did a list of things at Magic Kingdom that are current and beloved that had no movie tie-in:

Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Tom Sawyer Island, Liberty Square Riverboat, Country Bear Jamboree, Tiki Birds, Jungle Cruise, Carousel of Progress, Hall of Presidents (based off of Great Times With Mr. Lincoln from the 1964 World's Fair), Main Street USA, Small World.

These are all current things to do at Magic Kingdom alone, and they are loved to this day. These were pretty original ideas other than the Riverboat. Disneyland had Matterhorn as well to this day.

Epcot isn't what Walt wanted it to be, but anything in that park that is a non-IP attraction that is still original is still based on Walt's vision. American Adventure for example, none of that happens without Hall of Presidents.

What Disney needs is a bunch of minds to come up with that sort of thing again. They are timeless.
 

gustaftp

Well-Known Member
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I don't buy into the "Disney knows what they are doing" argument he presents, when it is so patently untrue. If they knew what they were doing, they wouldn't have poured over $1,000,000,000 into redoing DCA. If they knew what they were doing, they wouldn't have let EPCOT stagnate. Etc Etc Etc.
 

bUU

Well-Known Member
Not all of these dislikes are personal: many of these opinions that you detest so much are essentially consensus of discerning and loyal Disney fans who care about the parks from an aesthetic perspective (as opposed to a Wall Street perspective.)
That's self-serving claptrap. "My opinion and that of my few thousand friends is 'consensus' and 'discerning' and the opinion of the hundreds of thousand of other people isn't!" And that ridiculously egoistic attitude is a perfect example of "The Problem With Disney Fans."
 

bUU

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong here bUU, but this is exactly what they're talking about.
Correct: People twisting themselves into pretzels in a vain attempt to make their personal preference sound more important than it really is.

It's your opinion, so it matters more and is more right than someone else. Just because I enjoy the parks doesn't make me undiscerning. It means I have different preferences than you.
And as I indicated above, the fact that Disney is serving you and not them makes you the "winner" in what those twisting themselves into a pretzel have essentially made into a contest.
 

bUU

Well-Known Member
The consensus of connoisseurs? Please tell me that you're kidding.
Indeed. And yet we occasionally get the vapid rejoinder from the cabal claiming that no one thinks that way. Here we see the truth underlying "The Problem With Disney Fans" revealed.
 

bUU

Well-Known Member
I don't claim to have conducted any scientific polling, but having read various Disney discussion boards there seems to be broad consensus on a number of matters.
What is your political persuasion? Whichever it is, I can "read various discussion boards" of the opposing side and conclude that there "seems to be a broad consensus on a number of matters" contrary to your political beliefs. It's called "the echo chamber" and there's one for every absolutist and elitist perspective.
 

bUU

Well-Known Member
This assumes all people are equally qualified and capable - and they are not.
Another perfect example of "The Problem With Disney Fans".

The topic is theme park entertainment. Every guest is equally qualified and capable, even if you cannot bring yourself to admit it.
 

Tom P.

Well-Known Member
This assumes all people are equally qualified and capable - and they are not. Plenty of people form irrational opinions.. Plenty of people are unaware of their ignorance of a subject.. Plenty of people are incapable of seeing beyond the tip of their nose.

If all opinions were equal and as worthy - there would be no market for critics, reviewers, or specialists. You could ask random person and get just as good of an view on something. And that's not the case.

Everyone is on equal footing to give their opinion - but not all opinions are equally worthy or respectable. People can torpedo that quite easily.
If we were discussing opinions on the likelihood of a recession based on an analysis of key economic indicators, I would agree with you. But we are not. We are talking about what should or should not be in a theme park. There are no qualification or capability required to opine on that particular subject, and the opinions of critics, reviewers, and specialists are of no more value than those of Random Joe # 27 on the Internet.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
If we were discussing opinions on the likelihood of a recession based on an analysis of key economic indicators, I would agree with you. But we are not. We are talking about what should or should not be in a theme park. There are no qualification or capability required to opine on that particular subject, and the opinions of critics, reviewers, and specialists are of no more value than those of Random Joe # 27 on the Internet.
Completely incorrect. Success in consumer entertainment is not just blind random luck. There are principals and fundamentals in industrial engineering, psychology, storytelling, stage craft, and more. The fact this is an entertainment industry, and not something stuffy like econmics does not change anything.

You're confusing the idea of 'subjective conclusions'... if someone likes something or not... their opinion of something as it applies to their personal interests... with the more general idea of 'opinion' on other aspects.

And even still.. there is the idea that even subjective conclusions can be worthless... depending on who they come from. Some people are just irrational.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Another perfect example of "The Problem With Disney Fans".

The topic is theme park entertainment. Every guest is equally qualified and capable, even if you cannot bring yourself to admit it.
No, I'm pretty sure your posting proves yourself incorrect.

Not all customers are equals - some you just have to accept are impossible.

It's why every good sampling tosses out the extremes... because they are not representative of typical.
 
Reading this discussion led me to an article complaining about the IP problem. The article lamented that we may never again get non-IP attractions like Jungle Cruise (inspired by The African Queen, but without licensing that IP), Space Mountain (it and other Tomorrowland attractions were inspired by or created synergistically with the Man in Space specials) or Matterhorn Bobsleds (inspired by Disney's film Third Man on the Mountain).

The difference is one of subtlety, which the company seems to lack today. The re-skinning that has happened with Pixar Pier smacks of a Six Flags level of IP integration.
 

Hoopsters

New Member
There is definitely some truth to this video from Offhand Disney, and I have to agree with it to a degree:

I agree that we sometimes forget that IPs have existed for almost as long as the Disney parks themselves have existed, for starters. However, I really have nothing to say about Star Wars, mainly because I'm nowhere near as emotionally invested in it.

But anyway, I think this video has some truth to it.
BIGGEST TAKE AWAY: "EXPERIENCE IT YOURSELF BEFORE FORMING AN OPINION"....Change is not to be feared!
I think Imagineers do a commendable job. People complained when DL announced that they were upgrading Fantasyland in the early 80s. The changes they made were amazing. Proof of that is to compare WDW sad cardboard Fantasyland (new Dumbo area excluded) to DL Bavarian Village upgrade.
 

tl77

Well-Known Member
Wow there's so much to hate about this kid and his video I don't know were to begin... I love that it's 15 minutes of "people should learn to except everything the Disney company does" followed by "be sure to watch me on the Disney channel" ...the internet makes it's so easy to be a shill these days, how nice...

Anyway, the problem with Epcot is more a "generation gap" sort of thing. This kid looks way too young to have experienced The EPCOT Center of the 1980's, that's why he don't get it, but he's also the age that Disney is now targeting, so that's why he thinks Guardians of the Galaxy replacing Universe of Energy is "a good thing". Us old farts really do understand "why" Disney is doing what they are doing, we understand that popular movies are a low risk way to attract the public to the parks, and that's also part of the reason "why" we don't like it.

The problem with Galaxy's Edge is that it's only really geared toward people about the age of this kid in the video. Not just the fact that it only revolves around content from the current films, but it's basically Disney's attempt to cash in on the 20 something, comic con nerds, who like to play dress up and will pay $300 for collectible action figures and "merch". It's not a place where "the parents and kids can have fun together" which is actually the "original vision" Walt Disney had for his parks. I was at RetroCon this weekend in Oaks PA, in basically a warehouse type space, but inside there we people dressed like Star Wars characters from all the films. Kylo Ren was hanging out Boba Fett, old and new Storm Troopers were there... together! and even Darth Vader and R2-D2... but none of the children seemed confused by this, they seem to like it, as if these "continuity error" weren't something to be upset about. There we also people dressed like GI Joes, and Ghostbusters, and Transformers... and as a rational adult I understand that it is all just "pretend" it's just something people do "for fun" ...so if Disney isn't handling Star Wars "correctly" for you, go look for other people who are, or just do it yourself, it's a lot cheaper and may benefit someone other that the "share holders"

411835
 

JohnD

Well-Known Member
People who complain about IPs don't seem to remember the ORIGINAL IPs:
  • Swiss Family Robinson
  • Snow White
  • Dumbo
  • Peter Pan
  • Davy Crockett
  • 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
  • Mr. Toad
Surprise! There were rides and attractions based off movies of the time. Imagine that.
 

Zorro

Member
People who complain about IPs don't seem to remember the ORIGINAL IPs:
  • Swiss Family Robinson
  • Snow White
  • Dumbo
  • Peter Pan
  • Davy Crockett
  • 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
  • Mr. Toad
Surprise! There were rides and attractions based off movies of the time. Imagine that.
You're putting forth a straw man argument. Who exactly is denying that? What totally ignorant Disney fan is denying the long history of IPs in the parks? What people are rightly pointing out is that Disney is now focusing primarily upon IP experiences. Where is that certain balance of new IP and non-IP experiences? Yes, on opening day we had Snow White, Dumbo, and Davy Crockett attractions, but we also had the Mark Twain, Autopia, the DLRR, and Main Street. In the 1960s, we got the Swiss Family Treehouse, but we also got Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion.
 
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Phil12

Well-Known Member
You're putting forth a straw man argument. Who exactly is denying that? What totally ignorant Disney fan is denying the long history of IPs in the parks? What people are rightly pointing out is that Disney is now focusing primarily upon IP experiences. Where is that certain balance of new IP and non-IP experiences? Yes, on opening day we had Snow White, Dumbo, and Davy Crockett attractions, but we also had the Mark Twain, Autopia, the DLRR, and Main Street. In the 1960s, we got the Swiss Family Treehouse, but we also got Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion.
Actually, Pirates of the Caribbean is directly based upon Disney's Treasure Island. This 1950 film starred British actor Robert Newton. And he introduced the the now classic "arrr", eye-roll, accent and swagger that we now associate with the "typical" pirate:
 

Zorro

Member
Actually, Pirates of the Caribbean is directly based upon Disney's Treasure Island. This 1950 film starred British actor Robert Newton. And he introduced the the now classic "arrr", eye-roll, accent and swagger that we now associate with the "typical" pirate:
Directly? Source please.
 
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