"The Problem With Disney Fans"

[Rupert901]

What I find offensive - really: damaging to the community - are claims that seek to make personal dislike sound more important than it really is.

Not all of these dislikes are personal: many of these opinions that you detest so much are essentially consensus of discerning and loyal Disney fans who care about the parks from an aesthetic perspective (as opposed to a Wall Street perspective.) If Disney is able to succeed by lowering the quality of their attractions and service (as defined by the consensus of connoisseurs) while jacking up the prices that is no reason to celebrate from our perspective because it just demonstrates that many guests are undiscerning making an inexorable decline in park quality inevitable.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

What I find offensive - really: damaging to the community - are claims that seek to make personal dislike sound more important than it really is.

Agreed. Too many armchair experts.

 

[Tom P.]

Well, when you misstate it that way...








You were responding to two posts not just talking about "Disney" doing something "in the past," but about "Disneyland" "from the very beginning." That means Walt did it. So yes, inarguably, it "should be accepted and practiced today."

Are you suggesting that Walt never made a bad decision? Or that everything he did in the 1950's and 1960's is still automatically the best thing to do today in every case?

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Are you suggesting that Walt never made a bad decision? Or that everything he did in the 1950's and 1960's is still automatically the best thing to do today in every case?

I knew someone would have to twist things. That's what this board does. (Sigh.)

 

[Shouldigo12]

Not all of these dislikes are personal: many of these opinions that you detest so much are essentially consensus of discerning and loyal Disney fans who care about the parks from an aesthetic perspective (as opposed to a Wall Street perspective.) If Disney is able to succeed by lowering the quality of their attractions and service (as defined by the consensus of connoisseurs) while jacking up the prices that is no reason to celebrate from our perspective because it just demonstrates that many guests are undiscerning making an inexorable decline in park quality inevitable.

Correct me if I'm wrong here bUU, but this is exactly what they're talking about. It's your opinion, so it matters more and is more right than someone else. Just because I enjoy the parks doesn't make me undiscerning. It means I have different preferences than you. And what even is a theme park connoisseur? I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but that just sounds so pretentious.

All of our opinions are equal in value. Just because they don't match up doesn't mean we're undiscerning, stupid, bad with money, don't understand the history of the company and so (and all of these are things I've had said to me on here for disagreeing).

 

[Tom P.]

I knew someone would have to twist things. That's what this board does. (Sigh.)

I would appreciate an explanation of your comments.

You said that because Walt did it, it should inarguably be accepted and practiced today. Those are you words, not mine. How did I twist that?

 

[BoarderPhreak]

...Then all guests must light up a cigarette as they pass the turnstiles.

Well, that was the status quo not that long ago...

 

[Tom P.]

Not all of these dislikes are personal: many of these opinions that you detest so much are essentially consensus of discerning and loyal Disney fans who care about the parks from an aesthetic perspective (as opposed to a Wall Street perspective.) If Disney is able to succeed by lowering the quality of their attractions and service (as defined by the consensus of connoisseurs) while jacking up the prices that is no reason to celebrate from our perspective because it just demonstrates that many guests are undiscerning making an inexorable decline in park quality inevitable.

The consensus of connoisseurs? Please tell me that you're kidding.

First, I'm curious as to how you've determined that your opinions represent a consensus of these connoisseurs. Who defines who a connoisseur is? And who has taken a properly conducted survey of those connoisseurs, beyond just reading essentially anonymous comments on an Internet message board?

Second, the elitist attitude that you are expressing in terms of how Disney parks should be managed -- according to the preferences of the connoisseurs, with a total disregard for the general public -- is incredibly antithetical to the attitude that built the parks in the first place. The Disney parks were never designed to cater to a small few. They were designed to be a mass market product.

And, third, regardless of whether an opinion comes from a casual guest or a connoisseur, and whether it comes from one person or a consensus of people, it is still just an opinion and no more or less valid than anyone else's opinion.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I would appreciate an explanation of your comments.

You said that because Walt did it, it should inarguably be accepted and practiced today. Those are you words, not mine. How did I twist that?

[expression of frustration edited out.]

If Walt jumped off a bridge? No.

If Walt put IP in the parks - which was the context of the discussion - then yes, it's inarguably "correct" to do so today.

 

[Rupert901]

First, I'm curious as to how you've determined that your opinions represent a consensus of these connoisseurs.

Observation.

Who defines who a connoisseur is?

You can make the same argument about anything. Who defines who a connoisseur of literature is? Who is to say that Shakespeare is better than Stephen King, after all Stephen King's books outsell Shakespeare's?

And who has taken a properly conducted survey of those connoisseurs, beyond just reading essentially anonymous comments on an Internet message board?

I don't claim to have conducted any scientific polling, but having read various Disney discussion boards there seems to be broad consensus on a number of matters. It seems that whenever Disney commits some atrocity against their legacy only corporate lackeys or uncritical pixie-dusters come to the company's defense on these boards.

 

[Tom P.]

[expression of frustration edited out.]

If Walt jumped off a bridge? No.

If Walt put IP in the parks - which was the context of the discussion - then yes, it's inarguably "correct" to do so today.

That is also the context in which I was speaking. And I still think the assertion is wrong. Just because Walt did something in the parks does not make it inarguably correct to do it today. It is entirely possible that Walt made a decision about content in the parks that was not correct. It is also possible that he made a decision that made sense at the time, but no longer makes sense. Just because Walt did something does not end the discussion.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I don't claim to have conducted any scientific polling, but having read various Disney discussion boards there seems to be broad consensus on a number of matters.

It's a fan site with no barrier to entry. I'll take those "consensus" opinions with the appropriate teeny, tiny grain of salt.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

That is also the context in which I was speaking. And I still think the assertion is wrong. Just because Walt did something in the parks does not make it inarguably correct to do it today. It is entirely possible that Walt made a decision about content in the parks that was not correct. It is also possible that he made a decision that made sense at the time, but no longer makes sense. Just because Walt did something does not end the discussion.

omg I can't.

Walt Disney is no longer the arbiter of what's correct or not at Disney World.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Please tell Walt's ghost that he was wrong (wrong!) to put that darned Snow White at Disneyland. And especially those darn pigs with the big heads! No theming. No imagination. Just wrong.

Hint: If he owned more successful IP at the time, he would have used more. Yes, that's just a guess and just my own opinion, but at least I clarify it as such.

 

[Tom P.]

omg I can't.

Walt Disney is no longer the arbiter of what's correct or not at Disney World.

Correct. Walt Disney died in 1966, six years before Walt Disney World even opened. His plans for it were very, very different from even what was there on opening day. Walt, for example, would not have even recognized the EPCOT Center that opened in 1982 as having anything to do with why he started building WDW in the first place. I am not suggesting that we should discard Walt's vision and opinion when discussing things today, but we also shouldn't blindly say that just because Walt did or said something, it is the right thing to do today.

Please tell Walt's ghost that he was wrong (wrong!) to put that darned Snow White at Disneyland. And especially those darn pigs with the big heads! No theming. No imagination. Just wrong.

Hint: If he owned more successful IP at the time, he would have used more. Yes, that's just a guess and just my own opinion, but at least I clarify it as such.

FWIW, I do not have any issue with the inclusion of IP at WDW and Disneyland. In fact, I am fairly regularly arguing against those who hate the inclusion of IP on these forums. But I disagree with your particular justification for it.

 

[Tom P.]

Observation.

You can make the same argument about anything. Who defines who a connoisseur of literature is? Who is to say that Shakespeare is better than Stephen King, after all Stephen King's books outsell Shakespeare's?

I don't claim to have conducted any scientific polling, but having read various Disney discussion boards there seems to be broad consensus on a number of matters. It seems that whenever Disney commits some atrocity against their legacy only corporate lackeys or uncritical pixie-dusters come to the company's defense on these boards.

Don't get me started on a discussion of Shakespeare. It is a pet peeve of mine that we, as a society, have ruined Shakespeare. Because Shakespeare did not write novels. He wrote plays. For people to see performed, not to read. It's as if instead of releasing Endgame, Disney just handed out the script and expected people to be satisfied. The reason so many people hate Shakespeare is because they are forced to read and analyze his work, instead of actually sitting down and watching the plays.

Okay, end of tangent.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I am not suggesting that we should discard Walt's vision and opinion when discussing things today, but we also shouldn't blindly say that just because Walt did or said something, it is the right thing to do today.

Great, then we disagree and/or you’re not quite getting it, and this is not worth continuing.

That will be my last word regarding this little side-chat.

 

[Nigel_Channing]

It is a pet peeve of mine that we, as a society, have ruined Shakespeare.

He wrote plays. For people to see performed, not to read. It's as if instead of releasing Endgame, Disney just handed out the script and expected people to be satisfied.

While I agree with your points, there's no denying that Marvel knows how to do Shakespeare right.

 

[flynnibus]

And, third, regardless of whether an opinion comes from a casual guest or a connoisseur, and whether it comes from one person or a consensus of people, it is still just an opinion and no more or less valid than anyone else's opinion.

This assumes all people are equally qualified and capable - and they are not. Plenty of people form irrational opinions.. Plenty of people are unaware of their ignorance of a subject.. Plenty of people are incapable of seeing beyond the tip of their nose.

If all opinions were equal and as worthy - there would be no market for critics, reviewers, or specialists. You could ask random person and get just as good of an view on something. And that's not the case.

Everyone is on equal footing to give their opinion - but not all opinions are equally worthy or respectable. People can torpedo that quite easily.

 

[HongKongFu]

People on both sides will act like their opinion is the absolute truth and get nasty when others disagree,

No, not when disagreeing so much.....far more often when others talk stupid.