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The Miscellaneous Thought Thread
- Thread starter mickEblu
- Start date
TP2000
Well-Known Member
For a few of the states we've been discussing here, using 2021 median household income and average cost of 3 bedroom home and average monthly electric bill...
California = $81,575 : 3 bedroom home cost $728,000 : average monthly electric bill $124
Utah = $87,649 : 3 bedroom home cost $511,000 : average monthly electric bill $81
Idaho = $76,918 : 3 bedroom home cost $456,000 : average monthly electric bill $96
Texas = $67,404 : 3 bedroom home cost $273,000 (?!?!) : average monthly electric bill $132
Oregon = $81,855 : 3 bedroom home cost $491,000 : average monthly electric bill $99
Washington = $87,648 : 3 bedroom home cost $579,000 : average monthly electric bill $106
Also of note that the states in the Northwest and Mountain West often use electricity for home heating and major appliances. Those states mostly have homes with electric baseboards and electric clothes dryers and electric water heaters and electric ranges. So their electricity bill each month is usually their entire household power usage for cooking, cleaning and heating, not just lights and TV's.
"Live Better Electrically!" as the old slogan use to say.
Median household income by state U.S. 2023 | Statista
In 2023, the real median household income in the state of Alabama was 60,660 U.S.
www.statista.com
The Cost To Own a 3-Bedroom Home in Every State
Three bedrooms will cost you much more in some states.
www.gobankingrates.com
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tcool123
Well-Known Member
As a Florida resident - lived in Miami my whole life and now Ive been spending half the year in Orlando now. I’d say Florida isn’t the worse thing around.
If the cold is a factor I do suggest Southeast Florida with the counties of Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach. Miami-Dade is the priciest out of like the whole state, but with that comes a place like no other as it remains a melting pot of Hispanic, Caribbean and American cultures seen in the vibrant art and architecture throughout the county, the unique food, and the languages spoken. The biggest negatives for Miami-Dade is the price, traffic and some areas being best avoided (Opa Locka, Midtown, Florida City, Homestead). Palm Beach offers a more calm area in this parr of the state while still being near the major cities of the area with day trips being possible thanks to proximity via cars of the Brightline train routes. Since this is a Disney forum I have to mention that the perk of Broward in my eyes is Sawgrass Mills, a mall containing one of the few remaining Disney Parks outlet stores - which is how I was able to get my Disneyland merchandise for cheap before my trip!
Southwest Florida consists of towns such as Naples and Fort Meyers - these towns are more relaxed with large populations of snowbirds and retirees, but they have been expanding in terms of demographics recently. Keep in mind a major hurricane just devastated these areas and much of it is still recovering it may mean property values are currently lower than usual but who knows what work may need to be done - my sister in law is currently living out of a trailer until her home is fixed!
Next up would be the Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater areas. They claim to be South Florida but many consider them Central due to the distance between this area and the Southeast part of the state. These are cities on the rise with some pockets of questionable areas, but overall it’s a cheaper Miami-Dade with the added bonus of being home to Busch Gardens a decent roller cosster park with an African/Asian theme and plenty of seasonal entertainment and animal exhibits.
The Orlando metropolitan area is great … if theme parks are a big part of your life with day trips to Disney World, Universal, SeaWorld and Legoland all being possible and highly common. Downtown Orlando itself has been growing in the last few years into an area full of unique dining, retail and living space, but you can never escape the shadow of the parks. Smaller areas nearby such as Clermont, Kissimmee, Davenport, Ocala, Winter Haven/Park, Metro West make up a good chunk of the residential areas of the metropolitan area and I recommend living there for lower price homes, being near a major city with Orlando, the theme parks, and being in the middle of the state allowing for ease of access to any city in case of a vacation being wanted.
Beyond that I don’t know much of the other cities in the state but the Keys are rather quiet, far removed from everything else, hard to get to and out of, and not safe during hurricanes due to the fact their islands connected by bridges. The panhandle and north Florida are true Southern states with cheaper cost of livings, but they do get cold and I personally wouldn’t want to live anywhere north of the Orlando metropolitan area in the state
If you choose Florida just remember we have hurricanes but no earthquakes or water shortages, and all Florida residents get deals at the Orlando/Tampa theme parks!
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Or, looked at by annual costs for housing, you could break it down this way based on median household income vs. the average mortgage payment on the average 3 bedroom house in each state, and thus the percent of annual median income spent on housing costs per state And we'll throw Florida in there for @tcool123 and our other Disney World friends...
California = median income $81,575 : annual mortgage cost $42,624 : 52% of income for housing
Utah = median income $87,649 : annual mortgage payment $29,220 : 33% of income for housing
Idaho = median income $76,918 : annual mortgage payment $26,496 : 34% of income for housing
Texas = median income $67,404 : annual mortgage payment $18,444 : 27% of income for housing
Oregon = median income $81,855 : annual mortgage payment $29,784 : 36% of income for housing
Washington = median income $87,648 : annual mortgage payment $34,716 : 39% of income for housing
Florida = median income $59,734 : annual mortgage payment $22,080 : 36% of income for housing
After making the average mortgage payment for 12 months, based on the household median income in each state, the average family earning a median income and living in the average 3 bedroom house would have this money left over each year for other household expenses, ranked from highest to lowest: (And I'll add the current average cost for a gallon of regular gas plus the average state/county sales taxes of each state for some context on cost of living)
Utah: $58,429 Income Left Over, $3.34 Per Gallon, Sales Tax 7.1%
Washington: $52,932 Income Left Over, $3.85 Per Gallon, Sales Tax 9.3%
Oregon: $52,071 Income Left Over, $3.76 Per Gallon, Sales Tax 0.0% (Let's go to the mall!)
Idaho: $50,449 Income Left Over, $3.46 Per Gallon, Sales Tax 6.0%
Texas: $48,960 Income Left Over, $2.70 Per Gallon, Sales Tax 8.2%
California : $38,951 Income Left Over, $4.37 Per Gallon, Sales Tax 8.8%
Florida: $37,654 Income Left Over, $2.98 Per Gallon, Sales Tax 7.0%
AAA Gas Prices
gasprices.aaa.com
State and Local Sales Tax Rates, 2022
While many factors influence business location and investment decisions, sales taxes are something within policymakers’ control that can have immediate impacts.
taxfoundation.org
Phroobar
Well-Known Member
So @TP2000 have you taken a trip to Lagoon yet? It's like Knotts and Magic Mountain had a baby and left it in a corn field. It has a pioneer section like Knotts and lower level coasters similar to MM. Cannibal is pretty good. They have two classic dark rides. Dracula's Castle and Terror Ride. They are extremely cheesy.
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Here's the real killer for California families trying to decide whether or not to buy Disneyland Magic Keys; State Income Tax! 
California has the highest state income tax rates in the nation. Californians are spending about half their monthly income on housing, and California has extremely high income taxes on top of that! Washington, Texas and Florida have absolutely no state income taxes.
Here's the effective personal income tax charged for a married couple by state, based on their median household income from above.
California = 9.7% Income Tax, $7,903 Per Year
Oregon = 9.6% Income Tax, $7,807 Per Year (the state with no sales tax, remember)
Idaho = 5.8% Income Tax, $4,457 Per Year
Utah = 4.9% Income Tax, $4,339 Per Year
Washington = 0.0% Income Tax, $0 Per Year
Texas = 0.0% Income Tax, $0 Per Year
Florida = 0.0% Income Tax, $0 Per Year
www.forbes.com
California has the highest state income tax rates in the nation. Californians are spending about half their monthly income on housing, and California has extremely high income taxes on top of that! Washington, Texas and Florida have absolutely no state income taxes.
Here's the effective personal income tax charged for a married couple by state, based on their median household income from above.
California = 9.7% Income Tax, $7,903 Per Year
Oregon = 9.6% Income Tax, $7,807 Per Year (the state with no sales tax, remember)
Idaho = 5.8% Income Tax, $4,457 Per Year
Utah = 4.9% Income Tax, $4,339 Per Year
Washington = 0.0% Income Tax, $0 Per Year
Texas = 0.0% Income Tax, $0 Per Year
Florida = 0.0% Income Tax, $0 Per Year
Income Tax Calculator 2023-2024: Estimate Your Taxes - Forbes Advisor
Use our income tax calculator to estimate how much you'll owe in taxes. Enter your income and other filing details to find out your tax burden for the year.
www.forbes.com
TP2000
Well-Known Member
No, I haven't. But I've flown over it twice now when taking off from Salt Lake City. (I always have a starboard window seat! It's my thing.)
I've seen it and thought "Oh, there's that Lagoon place!". I plan to stop by this spring or summer and check it out.
Thank you for the response everyone @TP2000 @GiveMeTheMusic @Californian Elitist @mlayton144 @Phroobar @PiratesMansion @tcool123 I appreciate it. Haven’t slept well the last couple of nights. A lot of information to process. I’m not sure I have the guts to go through with a move but I’m not sure I have a choice either.
I’m not completely opposed to just staying in California and continuing to rent. It’s the “safe” move. Id still be home. My kids would still have their cousins and grandparents etc. Thing is, I would just hate to move my family into a rental only to have to move again in a few years. That sounds like a huge hassle and I’d hate to keep shuffling my kids around and have them switching schools etc. I don’t like the thought of being at the mercy of the landlord. I have the innate desire to put down some roots. I just never thought that would be on the other side of the country away from all family/ friends and everything I know. But my grandparents on both sides did it in the late 70’s and that was a new country/ continent. Not just a new state. Although it’s worth noting there’s probably more similarities with Sicily and Southern California than Southern California and somewhere like Montana or Boston.
I’d hate to be sitting there in my nice new home in Dallas or Orlando after a few weeks, look at my wife and say “now what?” Ultimately I think it has to be a quality of life move. And the question is would that quality of life be better half way around the country away from everyone and everything I know? It’s not just about home ownership.
I will be responding to specific posts later today. I have a 7 year old boy who is bored on Winter break and a 2 year old who does not stop moving. Which makes me wonder how in the H*ll im going to sort all this out. I had to take 8 breaks writing this post.
I’m not completely opposed to just staying in California and continuing to rent. It’s the “safe” move. Id still be home. My kids would still have their cousins and grandparents etc. Thing is, I would just hate to move my family into a rental only to have to move again in a few years. That sounds like a huge hassle and I’d hate to keep shuffling my kids around and have them switching schools etc. I don’t like the thought of being at the mercy of the landlord. I have the innate desire to put down some roots. I just never thought that would be on the other side of the country away from all family/ friends and everything I know. But my grandparents on both sides did it in the late 70’s and that was a new country/ continent. Not just a new state. Although it’s worth noting there’s probably more similarities with Sicily and Southern California than Southern California and somewhere like Montana or Boston.
I’d hate to be sitting there in my nice new home in Dallas or Orlando after a few weeks, look at my wife and say “now what?” Ultimately I think it has to be a quality of life move. And the question is would that quality of life be better half way around the country away from everyone and everything I know? It’s not just about home ownership.
I will be responding to specific posts later today. I have a 7 year old boy who is bored on Winter break and a 2 year old who does not stop moving. Which makes me wonder how in the H*ll im going to sort all this out. I had to take 8 breaks writing this post.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
Is there any way you can visit some of these states for even a short period of time to see which ones suit you more? I get not wanting to leave your comfort zone. I purposefully temporarily moved to Massachusetts a few years ago, but I was still naturally nervous about it and questioned if I was making the right decision. Sometimes you just have to do it and see what happens.
If California truly can no longer host you and your family safely and comfortably, you should absolutely move. I have heard many stories of people leaving California and regretting it, but that doesn’t mean you will. Continue to do your research, talk to people who live in the states you’re looking into, and visit them, if you can. Do your research about California as well, before you leave. Because you seem to be on the fence, be as sure as possible before you leave. You can always come back, too. I love California, but moving to a different state was personally very exciting to me. I looked forward to living somewhere I had never lived before, getting to know my new home, and meeting new people.
Do what’s best for you and your family.
I can definitely stay in California and my family would be safe/comfortable but it just becomes a value thing. Comparing what I can get here vs elsewhere. Elsewhere looks very attractive in that regard but the question is it worth losing everything else? That’s what I have to answer.
There is definitely also something exciting about it all. I’ve been here in the San Fernando Valley my entire life. 40 years. Which interestingly enough happens to be my grandparents ages, plus or minus a few years when they moved here. A change of scenery doesn’t sound bad.
I’m going to Miami for a cruise in April. That would give me an opportunity to check out some of the cities in Florida. They’re more central Florida though.
Californian Elitist
Well-Known Member
What would you be losing, with the exception of proximity to family? Maybe making a list of pros and cons may help.
Hopefully you can schedule some time to explore that part of Florida while you’re on your trip.
mlayton144
Well-Known Member
I would say do the following for just a reality check for each place - list your priorities in order :
- Family support (in person) and/or whether you can drive or fly to see them
- Climate
- Culture - whatever level of diversity from people to languages , to food , entertainment, etc
- Cost of living vs income
- Access to jobs
- Access to good education
- What your wife wants
Assign a 1-10 rating for each item and a multiplier for the highest priorities - a little hint that what your wife wants should probably the highest priority LOLOL
- Family support (in person) and/or whether you can drive or fly to see them
- Climate
- Culture - whatever level of diversity from people to languages , to food , entertainment, etc
- Cost of living vs income
- Access to jobs
- Access to good education
- What your wife wants
Assign a 1-10 rating for each item and a multiplier for the highest priorities - a little hint that what your wife wants should probably the highest priority LOLOL
Phroobar
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't move just to pay rent someplace else. The hard part is getting that down payment. I would also take school quality into account. I'm kind of on the other side of the boat. I'm looking for a place to retire and it doesn't need to be near a theme park but a University and museums/culture would be nice.
PiratesMansion
Well-Known Member
One thing to keep in mind if you do the move for real is proximity to other states and things to do, particularly if you're not super outdoorsy.
A negative for particularly Idaho and Utah, but also to an extent Texas and Florida, is that you are relatively isolated from anything else. Texas and Florida probably have enough to keep you occupied for awhile, but depending on the interests of you and your family, that may not be true of some other states you're considering. Sure, there are a lot of cool things to do in Utah, but if you want to leave or check out somewhere else? If you get to the point where you've seen everything in SLC you want to see and you've done the national parks? It'd mean that you're either hopping on a plane or driving through hours of nothing to get there. Eventually you might find that your options of going elsewhere are limited, time consuming, and/or expensive.
Whereas if you're in, say, Tennessee, you have lots of other states and cities with lots of things to do within a few hours drive. But if you get tired of Boise, you're hours from anything else (unless you are content to immerse yourself in nature) if you ever want to go somewhere new.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
You are a far better man than I am!
When I made the decision to leave SoCal and was making my list of required services/offerings that my retirement location simply had to have, my list just had stuff like "Target" and "Nordstrom Rack" and "good butcher" on it.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
On the flip side, looking at all that economic info I posted and that so many other California transplants rave about, it can be far easier for a married couple to save for a down payment when you're living in Dallas or Boise or Salt Lake than it can be when you're living in SoCal.
The key to financial security is not that hard. It requires getting married to pool resources, then staying married, and creating familial wealth via real estate and investments that can then be passed on to the next generation so they can repeat that process and build off of it.
I'm a lifelong bachelor, and I worked hard and made a comfy life for myself. But if I'd had a spouse I could have saved a lot on taxes and would have had even more income coming in to build a nest egg and real estate ownership. For the vast majority of my life it was illegal for me to be married, or even to exist really, so that life was never an option that I ever could have planned for or enjoyed during my key earning decades.
I certainly could not have admitted it to the feds or the tax guy from H&R Block either!
But the laws have changed in the last ten years, thank God, and anyone can now get married and stay married and build a future!
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Here's a fun example of how the tax thing works for married couples.
You've got one 30 year old man who is single, he has a good cubicle job making $75,000 per year, but he has no spouse. He's a man about town, still hitting the bars and a real gay blade if you will!
$75,000 Income, Filing Single. $9,487 Federal Income Tax. $7,234 California Income Tax.
Single Man After Tax Income = $58,274
The guy who works in the office cubicle next to that gay-blade-man-about-town is also 30 years old. But he got married at age 27, and instead of hitting the bars every Saturday he now goes to Costco and Home Depot. He also makes $75,000 and is the principal bread winner and so he gets a $4,000 reduction in federal taxes, but his wife has a part-time job at home while she's taking care of their 2 year old with a second child on the way. She makes $25,000 at her part-time job in addition to her full-time and most important job of being a mom.
$75,000 Income, Filing Married. $5,590 Federal Income Tax. $7,226 California Income Tax. (Sacramento gives no marriage tax breaks!)
$25,000 Income, Filing Married. $0 Federal Income Tax. $806 California Income Tax. (Sacramento still wants their 800 bucks, lady!)
Husband's After Tax Income = $62,185
Wife's After Tax Income = $24,194
Married Couple After Tax Income = $86,379
Get married, stay married, pool resources, build family wealth, then take the kids to Disneyland!
www.forbes.com
You've got one 30 year old man who is single, he has a good cubicle job making $75,000 per year, but he has no spouse. He's a man about town, still hitting the bars and a real gay blade if you will!
$75,000 Income, Filing Single. $9,487 Federal Income Tax. $7,234 California Income Tax.
Single Man After Tax Income = $58,274
The guy who works in the office cubicle next to that gay-blade-man-about-town is also 30 years old. But he got married at age 27, and instead of hitting the bars every Saturday he now goes to Costco and Home Depot. He also makes $75,000 and is the principal bread winner and so he gets a $4,000 reduction in federal taxes, but his wife has a part-time job at home while she's taking care of their 2 year old with a second child on the way. She makes $25,000 at her part-time job in addition to her full-time and most important job of being a mom.
$75,000 Income, Filing Married. $5,590 Federal Income Tax. $7,226 California Income Tax. (Sacramento gives no marriage tax breaks!)
$25,000 Income, Filing Married. $0 Federal Income Tax. $806 California Income Tax. (Sacramento still wants their 800 bucks, lady!)
Husband's After Tax Income = $62,185
Wife's After Tax Income = $24,194
Married Couple After Tax Income = $86,379
Get married, stay married, pool resources, build family wealth, then take the kids to Disneyland!
California Tax Calculator 2023-2024: Estimate Your Taxes - Forbes Advisor
Use our income tax calculator to find out what your take home pay will be in California for the tax year. Enter your details to estimate your salary after tax.
www.forbes.com
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mlayton144
Well-Known Member
I had no idea cal state tax rate was so punishing , NJ taxes are the highest in the nation but mostly on the property side of things - yikes 10% on income at that level is just wowHere's a fun example of how the tax thing works for married couples.
You've got one 30 year old man who is single, he has a good cubicle job making $75,000 per year, but he has no spouse. He's a man about town, still hitting the bars and a real gay blade if you will!
$75,000 Income, Filing Single. $9,487 Federal Income Tax. $7,234 California Income Tax.
Single Man After Tax Income = $58,274
The guy who works in the office cubicle next to that gay-blade-man-about-town is also 30 years old. But he got married at age 27, and instead of hitting the bars every Saturday he now goes to Costco and Home Depot. He also makes $75,000 and is the principal bread winner and so he gets a $4,000 reduction in federal taxes, but his wife has a part-time job at home while she's taking care of their 2 year old with a second child on the way. She makes $25,000 at her part-time job in addition to her full-time and most important job of being a mom.
$75,000 Income, Filing Married. $5,590 Federal Income Tax. $7,226 California Income Tax. (Sacramento gives no marriage tax breaks!)
$25,000 Income, Filing Married. $0 Federal Income Tax. $806 California Income Tax. (Sacramento still wants their 800 bucks, lady!)
Husband's After Tax Income = $62,185
Wife's After Tax Income = $24,194
Married Couple After Tax Income = $86,379
Get married, stay married, pool resources, build family wealth, then take the kids to Disneyland!
California Tax Calculator 2023-2024: Estimate Your Taxes - Forbes Advisor
Use our income tax calculator to find out what your take home pay will be in California for the tax year. Enter your details to estimate your salary after tax.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
It's brutal. Sacramento takes no prisoners.
And those high California income tax rates on even middle-class salaries are on top of some of the highest gasoline taxes in the nation, high sales tax, electricity rates double the national average, ridiculously high DMV fees every year, rising Magic Key prices, etc., etc.
Heck, in the Garden State you aren't even allowed to pump your own gas, but you still pay more than a dollar per gallon less than California. California sits on top of some of America's largest reserves of oil and natural gas, remember. Right under our feet.
California Regular Gas per Gallon = $4.37
New Jersey Regular Gas per Gallon = $3.25
AAA Gas Prices
gasprices.aaa.com