The Magic is gone!

[21stamps]

You also have to remember that MM+ wasn't put into place to help get people fastpasses. It was put in place to help Disney with big data to identify the traditionally slower times so they could "right size" their staffing in the parks. So even if crowds do happen to be lower, Disney is now one step ahead and staffing down, sometimes running fewer ride vehicles, so it still feels busier.

I know people won’t like to hear this, but I’ve realized that you have to compromise. That’s not Disney’s fault, it’s what we value as more important.
At MVMCP this year we rode more rides than last year- how? Because we went on a few while everyone was lined up and watching the first parade and the Mickey show, and then we went on Big Thunder Mountain while most everyone else was waiting for and then watching Holiday Wishes.
Then, before the second parade, we went on another ride while most everyone else was lined up and waiting again. We watched the parade from Frontierland instead of Main Street, finding a spot literally as the parade began. All of this allowed us to accomplish more, because we realized that we had to pick and choose, and we weren’t disappointed.

 

[thomas998]

Face it folks, we all knew it was a matter of time before everyone else caught on to our tricks of when to go and when not to go to WDW. My preferred time was the 1st two weeks of December. But,between the Brazilians love for Disney World and Europeans disgust of Disney Paris, everyone is flocking to Orlando. Those days of low attendance have vanished.

I live on the Gulf Coast which is approximately a 7-8 hour drive to WDW. Many folks here from Alabama to Texas are avid Disney Freaks, and we all have the antenna toppers to prove it. But much of the Disney talk among us lately has been mostly negative. The consensus is that Disney has not expanded enough to handle the crowds. The planned up grades to the parks (i.e. Star Wars and Pixar) is too little and still will not ease the situation. A lot of the talk has turned into how folks are fed up with Disney and going there is a waste of money. I'm reading much of the same about Disneyland.

I'm posting this here because I know that a lot of you who visit this Forum, earn your livelihood through Disney in some way or another. If we here on the Gulf Coast stop going, how much longer will it be before the good folks from New England and the Heartland get fed up as well. Disney once looked at building a park in New England. Perhaps they should revisit the idea of a 3rd Kingdom inside the United States, or build a 5th park in Orlando.

As for myself, my last trip I payed in the neighborhood of $5000 for a 5 day trip in October. The parks were so crowded it was elbow room only much of the time, and the weather was hot. Even my grandchildren admitted that they did not enjoy the trip. When a child tells me they don't want to go back to Orlando I have to listen to them. So in essence unless Disney does something drastic, my last trip....."was my last trip".

From their standpoint why would they do anything different? My last trip this fall was at a time which 10 years ago would have been very light with Disney trying to get APers there by offering big room discounts... Well this fall I couldn't get a room for the full time I wanted, if I was willing to jump hotels 3 times during the 5 day stay I could have but even doing that I would have had to have paid for a delux suite for one of the nights.... In short, they are selling out everything and doing it without expanding the parks.... Why would they expand now? I suspect if they do any expansions going forward they would be for more hotels but not for parks. In a perft world for them they would have enough hotels to fully stock the parks with visitors and then close the parks to anyone except people staying in their hotels (which seems to be where they are headed).

But why waste millions of dollars to expand a park when it seems to be good enough for enough people to keep it pretty full?

Sure as a guest I would love it if the park was 10 times larger and had only a fraction of the guests it does, but that wouldn't be reasonable from a business standpoint and at the end of the day Disney is a business.

 

[drizgirl]

I know people won’t like to hear this, but I’ve realized that you have to compromise. That’s not Disney’s fault, it’s what we value as more important.
At MVMCP this year we rode more rides than last year- how? Because we went on a few while everyone was lined up and watching the first parade and the Mickey show, and then we went on Big Thunder Mountain while most everyone else was waiting for and then watching Holiday Wishes.
Then, before the second parade, we went on another ride while most everyone else was lined up and waiting again. We watched the parade from Frontierland instead of Main Street, finding a spot literally as the parade began. All of this allowed us to accomplish more, because we realized that we had to pick and choose, and we weren’t disappointed.

Oh, I totally get that. I just never had to compromise before and I don't want to.

 

[21stamps]

Oh, I totally get that. I just never had to compromise before and I don't want to.

I understand. I don’t want wrinkles or these stupid new gray hairs on my head.
But the only way I can change that is if I take matters into my own hands.

I think my chances of my laugh lines organically going away, are about equal to the chances of Disney World suddenly becoming unpopular enough to see lower crowds.
Basically, they’re both annoying fact of life that we have to figure out how to work around, or accept.

 

[pax_65]

I get that there are vacation destinations that don't require this. To act like Disney is the only place isn't realistic.

All true... but my point is that Disney has changed in the last 10 years or so, and that it now requires much more planning. The parks themselves haven't really changed (an attraction added or subtracted here and there) but the crowds have increased (mostly in Magic Kingdom) and FP+ and ADRs now require that you plan months out - or lower your expectations significantly on what you hope to do.

In the past you could plan every second or you could be spontaneous and do whatever you felt like doing. Planning was probably a good idea, but you could "wing it" and still get really good value for what you were spending, especially if you were willing to get up early and/or take advantage of extra magic hours. Today, realistically, there is no longer a choice - I mean, yes, you could attempt to be spontaneous but you would either 1) not ride popular attractions or 2) spend most of your day in line.

 

[drizgirl]

I understand. I don’t want wrinkles or these stupid new gray hairs on my head.
But the only way I can change that is if I take matters into my own hands.

I think my chances of my laugh lines organically going away, are about equal to the chances of Disney World suddenly becoming unpopular enough to see lower crowds.
Basically, they’re both annoying fact of life that we have to figure out how to work around, or accept.

But have you seen how much people fuss and fume over the wrinkles and gray hairs and how much effort and expense they go to trying to avoid them? Not so different from much of what goes on here daily. Except that people here can ultimately decide whether to go to Disney at all. Good luck with that with wrinkles/gray hair.

 

[pax_65]

On tv he saw little boys running up into Mickeys arms and he was expecting that for his grandson.

It used to be that way. Characters would walk around the park, interacting with guests on their way to locations where they'd take photos and sign autographs.

It was nice, but even back then it was getting a little chaotic because so many people would run up to the popular characters and try to take photos and get signatures before they were in their designated location. With the crowds today I can't imagine Disney doing this - Anna and Elsa might not survive the ordeal!

 

[flynnibus]

Disney isn't the only popular vacation spot that requires advanced planning. I worked in lodging for Yellowstone National Park and it's a very similar situation. I've had plenty of people mad at me because they showed up wanting a day of hotel reservation only to find out that we had been sold out for months. Same for dining reservations at our three most popular restaurants. Reservations for 2019 will open May of 2018 and if you want a guaranteed hotel, campsite, or dinner reservation? You'd better be ready. Overcrowding is an issue too- the parking for many areas near the geysers is just full. You either have to illegally park alongside the road and walk or just circle for a long time (or skip it). It's always possible something will open up but it should never be counted on. If you're going last minute, be patient and flexible.

I get that there are vacation destinations that don't require this. To act like Disney is the only place isn't realistic.

At least you can get breakfast and lunch without year out ressies...

 

[Raineman]

The reality of the situation is this: everything that Disney owns, is a business, and part of a large corporation at that. The #1 reason businesses exist is to make money, and when you're a large multinational corporation in 2017, you exist to make as much money as possible. Why would Disney do anything to lessen the amount of people paying to come to the parks? That would be going against their reason for operating. Does it seem greedy? Does maxing out profits lessen the guest experience? Of course it does. Will it change any time soon? Anyone who thinks it will is fooling themselves. Not trying to be negative, but just facing reality. For those of you who say they won't return until things get better-you may have stepped foot on Disney property for the last time in your life. Disney is not worried about you, because there are thousands of others who are willing to take your place. There are still some people, myself included, who realize what Disney is and what their motivation is, but can still enjoy our visits. If things get to the point that even the casual visitor feels like they can't enjoy their trips any more, then attendance will drop dramatically, and Disney will notice. Will this happen any time soon? Doubtful. Sorry for the reality check, but it is what it is (not to sound like a doom and gloomer, but everyone has to realize this isn't the mom and pop Disney of the past anymore).

 

[21stamps]

At least you can get breakfast and lunch without year out ressies...

You can get dinner without year out ressies.. or 30 day out... or 60 day out.
If someone wants an exact dinner at an exact time then that’s on them.

You will not go hungry if you don’t book dining months in advance.

 

[Tom Morrow]

This part I don’t understand. What I love about Disney fast passes is - They’re Free!
Universal- not free, unless you are staying onsite.

I was reminded of this forum one day over the summer.. we were at an amusement park, standing in line for a ride, around 45minutes. The man in front of me would not stop complaining about the sale of Fast Lane/Fast Lane Plus tickets, and how they have made all wait times so much worse. He kept trying to engage with me, I smiled politely and told him that FL doesn’t bother me so much. He looked at me like I had 2 heads.

All parks have tried to figure out how to control crowds or give people an option for shorter wait times. Yes, then monetized passes are almost pure profit. Greed? Maybe. Smart Greed- Definitely.

Free or at a price, any type of Fast Lane/Express/Fast Pass doesn’t bother me at all. In my mind it’s a waste of time to be concerned with it. Everyone has the opportunity to book rides on the app, or purchase the passes.

Literally anyone who has actually worked directly with managing Fastpass and Express pass at attractions will tell you the exact same thing - they are both100% detrimental to the experience and only exist as a way to regulate crowds and ensure lines are always full (Disney's case) and to generate extra revenue (Universal's case). Both parks use them as a quick and easy service recovery option as well.

Fastpass+ has increased the wait times of every attraction it was added to that previously didn't have it. It's not fair to say that everyone has a fair shot at reserving Fastpasses when you will struggle to get anything decent on the day of, or even in the week before.

I've said this over and over and over, but the ONLY benefit that Fastpass gives you is the opportunity to bypass the long line that Fastpass itself created.

Fastpass+ now has a heavy impact on every single ride because every single guest in the park is more or less forced to utilize their reserved Fastpasses if they want to ride a reasonable amount of attractions in a day. Universal's Express pass tends to have less of an impact on the standby line due to the fact that is an upcharge, however you will see spikes of Express line users on busy days and after 4 PM when the premium AP holders' Express is valid, which often also grinds the standby lines to a crawl just like at Disney.

 

[RustySpork]

Literally anyone who has actually worked directly with managing Fastpass and Express pass at attractions will tell you the exact same thing - they are both100% detrimental to the experience and only exist as a way to regulate crowds and ensure lines are always full (Disney's case) and to generate extra revenue (Universal's case). Both parks use them as a quick and easy service recovery option as well.

Fastpass+ has increased the wait times of every attraction it was added to that previously didn't have it. It's not fair to say that everyone has a fair shot at reserving Fastpasses when you will struggle to get anything decent on the day of, or even in the week before.

I've said this over and over and over, but the ONLY benefit that Fastpass gives you is the opportunity to bypass the long line that Fastpass itself created.

This is especially relevant when it's in response to someone saying it's free. Fastpass+ is not free, you can not access it or use it without purchase. It feels like it's free by design, but it most certainly is not.

 

[spacemtnfanatic]

The Disney-can-do-no-wrong pixiedusters say that you just have to compromise and decide what you want to do with the current setup. Why should I pay a much higher price than I used to have to pick and choose to do *some* of the park attractions? You can tell me you are fine to just stroll around and "take it all in" but our family used to go and hardcore ride the rides and attractions. That was how we "did Disney". I'm not faulting you for saying your way is wrong, but to tell me that I should be ok with paying twice as much for a ticket as I did when I first started visiting and essentially slash what I am able to experience? The NextGen system is majorly flawed when it comes to allowing guests to maximize their time in the parks.

 

[RustySpork]

The Disney-can-do-no-wrong pixiedusters say that you just have to compromise and decide what you want to do with the current setup. Why should I pay a much higher price than I used to have to pick and choose to do *some* of the park attractions? You can tell me you are fine to just stroll around and "take it all in" but our family used to go and hardcore ride the rides and attractions. That was how we "did Disney". I'm not faulting you for saying your way is wrong, but to tell me that I should be ok with paying twice as much for a ticket as I did when I first started visiting and essentially slash what I am able to experience? The NextGen system is majorly flawed when it comes to allowing guests to maximize their time in the parks.

I think the people justifying vacations that cost thousands of dollars to just stroll around and take it all in might be a slight bit mental, but that's just me.

 

[flynnibus]

Why would Disney do anything to lessen the amount of people paying to come to the parks?

Because smart businesses know the importance of customer satisfaction and how success is more than just ONE dimension.

Disney is not worried about you, because there are thousands of others who are willing to take your place

Counting on such logic is danerous and is the line of thought that causes businesses to drive off a cliff before they realize they missed the turn.

Such logic only works until your interia in the market place stalls because whatever fueled it is gone. Those can be due to market shifts, disruptors, or simply your own mistakes.

Success is not perpetual nor is the future always like your past. When people learn the 'new norm' your future is going to be steered by that norm... not the one of the past. Interia happens because it takes awhile for that awareness to propagate.

 

[drizgirl]

Disney is not worried about you, because there are thousands of others who are willing to take your place.

What's keeping those thousands of others from going now? Are they holding off waiting for me to give up my spot or something?

 

[Tom Morrow]

I think the people justifying vacations that cost thousands of dollars to just stroll around and take it all in might be a slight bit mental, but that's just me.

Yeah. As a major veteran of the parks and a local, for me it's no big deal to just "take it all in" and stroll around in the parks, in fact, I enjoy it. But that's also because I've already been so much and I know I have ample other opportunities to visit. My family visits once a year or less, and every year it becomes more of a project to tackle and more stressful than before. Even after 5 or 6 days, they are lucky if they actually get to experience every attraction. Compromises now have to be made.

People who are only visiting for a limited time don't enjoy "taking it all in" when they're only doing it because trying to do anything other than wait for your pre-booked reservations for rides and dining is often a hassle.

 

[pax_65]

Because smart businesses know the importance of customer satisfaction and how success is more than just ONE dimension.

Exactly. There is a fundamental difference between building long-term customer loyalty (with tremendous "lifetime value" of each customer) versus just trying to maximize short-term profits.

Disney used to be all about long-term loyalty. They exceeded guest's expectations in every way possible and built a legion of dedicated fans (or fanatics) which is why most of us are here on this forum in the first place.

In recent years I've felt like Disney is trying to suck money out of my wallet at every turn, as I've watched the value of my WDW vacation decrease even as I've spent more and more. I think this is a direct result of Disney trying to maximize profits on my individual trip. This makes sense from a short-term business perspective but threatens the long-term relationship they worked so hard to build.

It's kind of unrelated, but right now there's an interesting case study happening with video game maker EA. They released their Star Wars Battlefront II video game and are essentially requiring people to pay additional fees to unlock popular characters in the game. Makes sense, right? A smart way to increase profit on the game. Except they have triggered a major backlash which will hurt the entire franchise and seriously hurt future sales of future games.

Disney loyalty is still high, Disney is still popular (as evidenced by crowds). But they should be careful...

 

[Rumrunner]

I envy you (Tom Morrow) in that you can still see the Silver Lining somewhere. For me, it's all been tarnished.

We have reservations for early June-3 families-3 generations. But we are all concerned about the reduced hours the MK had last summer and fall. MK closing at 9:00 in the heat of the summer is bothersome. Ticket and resort prices are up but that is not something we can't handle and understand that as part of doing business. If we don't see value in our June trip it will be our last one as a family. Massive crowds and reduced hours is not very appealing. It is a 1200 mile trip and not something we get to do as often as we like.

 

[21stamps]

Exactly. There is a fundamental difference between building long-term customer loyalty (with tremendous "lifetime value" of each customer) versus just trying to maximize short-term profits.

Disney used to be all about long-term loyalty. They exceeded guest's expectations in every way possible and built a legion of dedicated fans (or fanatics) which is why most of us are here on this forum in the first place.

In recent years I've felt like Disney is trying to suck money out of my wallet at every turn, as I've watched the value of my WDW vacation decrease even as I've spent more and more. I think this is a direct result of Disney trying to maximize profits on my individual trip. This makes sense from a short-term business perspective but threatens the long-term relationship they worked so hard to build.

It's kind of unrelated, but right now there's an interesting case study happening with video game maker EA. They released their Star Wars Battlefront II video game and are essentially requiring people to pay additional fees to unlock popular characters in the game. Makes sense, right? A smart way to increase profit on the game. Except they have triggered a major backlash which will hurt the entire franchise and seriously hurt future sales of future games.

Disney loyalty is still high, Disney is still popular (as evidenced by crowds). But they should be careful...

FIFA is the same. You can buy player packs or something.. people are accusing it as “gambling”. My son is getting his first (non Wii) gaming system for Christmas this year. I’ve been reading reviews on the 3 different systems and the games the he’s asked for. I’m not attaching a card to the account for sure!