The fallacy of overcrowded parks......

NCO91590

Active Member
Airline deregulation, I remember that now. I'm guessing a 70% reduction in ticket prices from the mid to early 80's? That would offset the park ticket price for sure. I didn't think about the airflight differential because we could not afford it. We drove for 2.5 days each way. :oops:

We were lucky in that my dad worked for the airlines, so we passrode growing up. Only reason why we were ever able to fly there. Downside is that we often got bumped or had to split up on different flights lol. Made Disney all the sweeter when we actually got there.
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
Original Poster
IMO the parks are more crowd simply because there are more people in the US now that can and do go ---when WDW opened in 1971 the population was 203 million fast forward 2018 the population was over 300 million. It's not just Disney our national parks are seeing ever increasing numbers of visitors. Disney is not a scam there are enough webs sites (like this one) with just a little bit of research you can find out exactly what you are getting in a Disney vacation. We may complain about pricing but in the end no one is forcing us to go
Sure, there are more people. My hypothesis was that the increased guest count is not the reason the parks are crowded. The parks should be able to swallow up the current number of guests on all but the busiest of days, and yet...
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
Original Poster
Again, how is Disney "tricking" any one into going to their parks??

When you purchase a park ticket do you not get into the parks?? What else is implied?? I'm watching a pretty cute commercial now about a

Well, when you book a vacation for a week in October, then come to find out that the only park which is open late, will in fact close at 6p 4 out of 7 days to accommodate TDOs grand vision of selling the park twice a day. That could be considered tricky.
 

Raineman

Well-Known Member
They sell tickets by the day or anum...

But with their new trend of late/early closures for upsells with more and more frequency...the argument can be made that “day” is false advertising.

If the park opens at 9 on a Wednesday in February and closes at 8 or 9....then it is closes at 6 or 7 for a “premium” experience on Thursday...

The case can be made that they are not intact providing the product sold each day.

Screwy...but not exactly false.
If tickets are sold by the "day", there must be some legalese in the customer agreement that specifies Disney has the right to determine what that "day" consists of-defined mostly by hours of operation-and there would also most likely be a statement regarding Disney's right to change the hours of operation at their discretion. Does that impinge on a visitor's cost value, ie per-hour cost for the visitor ($10 bucks per park hour at $120 for 12 hours, or $13 per park hour at $120 for 9 hours, for example)? Definitely. Is it a scam, legally? Probably not. Ethically? For alot of people, probably. It has put the onus on the customer to plan ahead and determine whether the cost for the "day" provided is worth it to them. This is mostly a macro view, TBH; there are other factors involved too.
 

Mickeyboof

Well-Known Member
few scams are actually illegal. Is Disney World actually a scam? Nah. Does it feel like one? A lot of the time.

If Chapek lived in another era before ours, he would have probably been the one selling the Brooklyn Bridge twice a week.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
few scams are actually illegal. Is Disney World actually a scam? Nah. Does it feel like one? A lot of the time.

If Chapek lived in another era before ours, he would have probably been the one selling the Brooklyn Bridge twice a week.

Disney is Mr. Haney from Green Acres. "Oh, did you want a cup for that soda? That'll be $5" (joking - but it's not far from that).

The biggest problem with Disney is the Nostalgic Fans who'll pay higher prices and defend Disney no matter what. This gives Disney license to do whatever it pleases. There's another thread where someone was stating that Disney shouldn't build more attractions because it just attracts more people and they should raise prices. That's some hard-core fandom right there. Why not just raise prices and close attractions to help with the crowds?

With regards to selling the park multiple times a day: I really think that if they just got rid of the tickets for morning, afternoon, and after hours and just sold it by the minute via the Magic Bands that it would solve a lot of problems:
- You could get rid of the AP
- People wouldn't be "married" to the park to try to get as much value as possible out of their ticket. If the park is too busy then they'd just leave and come back later.
- You wouldn't have this nonsense of, "Pay for the extra morning Magical Breakfast... Then pay for a regular day ticket.. Then pay for the evening hours.." - you'd just pay to be there. If you wanted to open the park and stay there all day well into the night then you're going to pay the max price for that day but, I think, that'd still be better than all of the individual, segregated tickets.

If I could have a Magic Band and just link it to my credit card like I link other services (tolls, transit, etc) then that'd be fantastic.

The worst part of pay-by-the-minute would be getting people to understand it.
 

Raineman

Well-Known Member
few scams are actually illegal. Is Disney World actually a scam? Nah. Does it feel like one? A lot of the time.

If Chapek lived in another era before ours, he would have probably been the one selling the Brooklyn Bridge twice a week.
The only reason WDW would feel like a scam to anyone would be a situation where someone pays for a WDW trip with little to no knowledge of what is offered, when it is offered and how much it will cost for what is offered. Anyone that spends thousands of dollars on anything-trips, vehicles, appliances, electronics, etc-without knowing exactly what they are getting for their money is flying blind, and will most likely feel scammed if they do not receive what they thought they should be getting. Some due diligence before dropping the $$ will give them a much clearer picture of the value they will get for their money spent, which could help them avoid spending that money and feeling scammed. In the case of WDW, it is not difficult to find tons of info online that details exactly what you will be getting and how much it costs. If a visitor arrives at WDW for a week and starts complaining that the food is too expensive, or that the park is shutting down early, or that all of the good fireworks spots are taken by the dessert parties that are too expensive for them-that is on the visitor for not getting all of the info beforehand, not Disney. You can argue the ethics of accelerating prices, shortened park hours, manipulated capacity, etc, but you can't argue that that info is not easily available prior to visiting to help make an informed decision to avoid feeling scammed.
 

Mickeyboof

Well-Known Member
The only reason WDW would feel like a scam to anyone would be a situation where someone pays for a WDW trip with little to no knowledge of what is offered, when it is offered and how much it will cost for what is offered. Anyone that spends thousands of dollars on anything-trips, vehicles, appliances, electronics, etc-without knowing exactly what they are getting for their money is flying blind, and will most likely feel scammed if they do not receive what they thought they should be getting. Some due diligence before dropping the $$ will give them a much clearer picture of the value they will get for their money spent, which could help them avoid spending that money and feeling scammed. In the case of WDW, it is not difficult to find tons of info online that details exactly what you will be getting and how much it costs. If a visitor arrives at WDW for a week and starts complaining that the food is too expensive, or that the park is shutting down early, or that all of the good fireworks spots are taken by the dessert parties that are too expensive for them-that is on the visitor for not getting all of the info beforehand, not Disney. You can argue the ethics of accelerating prices, shortened park hours, manipulated capacity, etc, but you can't argue that that info is not easily available prior to visiting to help make an informed decision to avoid feeling scammed.

How about the people that planned their trips with full review, only to notice the calendar suddenly shows their Magic Kingdom day ends at a 6pm for a private event?

Or people who booked their Star Wars experience only to find a barren land without many things that was advertised and teased?

There’s a few crummy things the Disney’s Co is happily committing.
 

Raineman

Well-Known Member
How about the people that planned their trips with full review, only to notice the calendar suddenly shows their Magic Kingdom day ends at a 6pm for a private event?

Or people who booked their Star Wars experience only to find a barren land without many things that was advertised and teased?

There’s a few crummy things the Disney’s Co is happily committing.
The private event thing, that could not have been avoided by better planning on the visitor's part-that was dropped in people's laps at the last minute.

But the SW:GE thing-Disney had originally planned to open at the end of this year, so alot of people booked for Dec-Jan-Feb so that they could be there when it opened. Disney announced that they were opening GE 4 months early, and made it clear that ROTR would not be available with the early opening, so anyone that changed their booking from January to August because of the early opening would have been aware than only 1 attraction was available. Anyone that kept their booking for early 2020 will still be able to visit and have both attractions open. There was no deception by Disney in this case, IMO-and, other than ROTR, I really don't think there was anything that they had publicly stated would be included in SW:GE that isn't actually there now.
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
How about the people that planned their trips with full review, only to notice the calendar suddenly shows their Magic Kingdom day ends at a 6pm for a private event?

Or people who booked their Star Wars experience only to find a barren land without many things that was advertised and teased?

There’s a few crummy things the Disney’s Co is happily committing.
Ok I just went on line and the calendar is out until the END of January, you can only make fp reservations 60 days out and dining reservations are no longer hard to get with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions.
So the folks who made tentative plans have enough time to tweek their schedule and no every day the park does not close early
 

Mickeyboof

Well-Known Member
The private event thing, that could not have been avoided by better planning on the visitor's part-that was dropped in people's laps at the last minute.

But the SW:GE thing-Disney had originally planned to open at the end of this year, so alot of people booked for Dec-Jan-Feb so that they could be there when it opened. Disney announced that they were opening GE 4 months early, and made it clear that ROTR would not be available with the early opening, so anyone that changed their booking from January to August because of the early opening would have been aware than only 1 attraction was available. Anyone that kept their booking for early 2020 will still be able to visit and have both attractions open. There was no deception by Disney in this case, IMO-and, other than ROTR, I really don't think there was anything that they had publicly stated would be included in SW:GE that isn't actually there now.

Couldn’t be avoided? Disney still collected a full day admission.

Galaxy’s Edge is half baked. It’s missing almost everything that doesn’t have a cash register attached to it. These things were revealed by leads on the project.

I wasn’t even referring to Rise. I was referring to cutting the entertainment that was previewed and showed for the press to SELL the land.
 

Mickeyboof

Well-Known Member
Ok I just went on line and the calendar is out until the END of January, you can only make fp reservations 60 days out and dining reservations are no longer hard to get with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions.
So the folks who made tentative plans have enough time to tweek their schedule and no every day the park does not close early

Or just upgrade to Disney® Park Hopper™ to enjoy another Disney Park from 6pm-9pm!
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Sure, there are more people. My hypothesis was that the increased guest count is not the reason the parks are crowded. The parks should be able to swallow up the current number of guests on all but the busiest of days, and yet...
The parks could do better but they wouldn’t swallow people. EPCOT Center would probably still be fine today but Epcot has lowered capacity as it sought to be more “relevant.” Disney’s Hollywood Studios and Disney’s Animal Kingdom were designed as half day parks, so the extra capacity really is not there. You also want to have some ability to shut down attractions without people feeling a resultant crunch so that refurbishments and maintenance can be done.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
The only reason WDW would feel like a scam to anyone would be a situation where someone pays for a WDW trip with little to no knowledge of what is offered, when it is offered and how much it will cost for what is offered. Anyone that spends thousands of dollars on anything-trips, vehicles, appliances, electronics, etc-without knowing exactly what they are getting for their money is flying blind, and will most likely feel scammed if they do not receive what they thought they should be getting. Some due diligence before dropping the $$ will give them a much clearer picture of the value they will get for their money spent, which could help them avoid spending that money and feeling scammed

This is a 'blame the customer' mentality that only works when you are already informed and knowledgable about everything you should know. There is culpability on Disney when they make things so complex or unique to them that a normal customer would not be aware of or expect.

Like...
Most people don't plan their meals months out -- Only those 'warned ahead' know they really need to invest there to be able to tap into all these ads they saw from Disney

Or how about when you goto Disney's website to lookup a a menu, find some prices and set expectations... only to find out when you got there 'oh there are now SEASONAL pricing on our menus' and the prices changed.

Many topics aren't clear at all from Disney.. and you must rely on 3rd party sites to educate and inform customers. This is not the norm. I didn't spend 3-4 days researching how to book my hotel and meals when visiting Hilton Head. I didn't need to be warned to say "Make sure you visit all these 3rd party sites or read these books to make sure you enjoy your vacation!"

Most customers have an expectation of what to expect with things based on common conventions. Disney bucks many of those trends and you can't always blame customers for 'failing to do their homework' because they didn't goto Disney University before taking a vacation.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
I'm kind of amazed at how people will go to any lengths to defend Disney:

It's not Disney's fault.. It's the customer's fault for not knowing better!

I could easily see a family thinking that they could head to Florida, buy some tickets, and enjoy WDW only to be met with:
- What's a Fast Pass+?
- We can't eat! Everything is booked!
- What do you mean the park closes at 6PM 4 nights out of the week for a "special party"???

I recently went to Denver, South Dakota, and Wyoming to check out Mt Rushmore, Crazy Horse, Badlands, etc. My "planning" consisted of:
- deciding dates
- finding a flight
- finding a hotel
- renting a car
- seeing what is nearby.

That's where it stopped. It wasn't a cheap trip but at no point did I think about having to plan out every moment of my day. I thought, "I'll swing by...<whatever> on this day and then maybe hit this other thing the next..."

That's how normal people plan trips. They don't think in terms of, "Do I need to make advanced reservations to see/eat/do...???"

But, yeah, let's blame the customer (they're no longer "guests" in my mind - just customers).
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I'm kind of amazed at how people will go to any lengths to defend Disney:

It's not Disney's fault.. It's the customer's fault for not knowing better!

I could easily see a family thinking that they could head to Florida, buy some tickets, and enjoy WDW only to be met with:
- What's a Fast Pass+?
- We can't eat! Everything is booked!
- What do you mean the park closes at 6PM 4 nights out of the week for a "special party"???

I recently went to Denver, South Dakota, and Wyoming to check out Mt Rushmore, Crazy Horse, Badlands, etc. My "planning" consisted of:
- deciding dates
- finding a flight
- finding a hotel
- renting a car
- seeing what is nearby.

That's where it stopped. It wasn't a cheap trip but at no point did I think about having to plan out every moment of my day. I thought, "I'll swing by...<whatever> on this day and then maybe hit this other thing the next..."

That's how normal people plan trips. They don't think in terms of, "Do I need to make advanced reservations to see/eat/do...???"

But, yeah, let's blame the customer (they're no longer "guests" in my mind - just customers).

Yeah, or even a more middle ground... visiting DC. People think "oh we'll go see the monuments..." and people talk about all the free museums, etc. But they don't know they need to do diligence enough to find out SOME things actually need free tickets (crowd control). Sure, after the fact you can say "common knowledge" -- but that's easy AFTER you know :) . When businesses buck the common conventions, they owe their customers the duty to ensure their peculiarities are well advertised and easy to discover/understand.
 

eliza61nyc

Well-Known Member
This is a 'blame the customer' mentality that only works when you are already informed and knowledgable about everything you should know. There is culpability on Disney when they make things so complex or unique to them that a normal customer would not be aware of or expect.

Like...
Most people don't plan their meals months out -- Only those 'warned ahead' know they really need to invest there to be able to tap into all these ads they saw from Disney

Or how about when you goto Disney's website to lookup a a menu, find some prices and set expectations... only to find out when you got there 'oh there are now SEASONAL pricing on our menus' and the prices changed.

Many topics aren't clear at all from Disney.. and you must rely on 3rd party sites to educate and inform customers. This is not the norm. I didn't spend 3-4 days researching how to book my hotel and meals when visiting Hilton Head. I didn't need to be warned to say "Make sure you visit all these 3rd party sites or read these books to make sure you enjoy your vacation!"

Most customers have an expectation of what to expect with things based on common conventions. Disney bucks many of those trends and you can't always blame customers for 'failing to do their homework' because they didn't goto Disney University before taking a vacation.
I don't think the have to go to Disney U but come on, yes I do think when you go somewhere you should know the hours the place is open.

Now I totally admit I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. You drop 4k on a vacation and you don't bother to check the hours MK is open, then get upset because the park closes at 6?? Yeah thats on you.

Now I do research where to eat when I visit anyplace so I'll give you that. I guess that's a personality flaw, heck when we decide to eat off-site we Yelp places to eat. Why do you say 3 days? 30 minutes googling "where to eat at Disney" will give you 30k hits in .03 secs.

I agree a few things can be confusing on there website but sometimes it's definitely willful ignorance. When you go someplace new don't you say " hey where we going to eat"??

Do people really go to American amusement park in JULY and think it's not going to be crowded??
 
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flynnibus

Premium Member
I don't think the have to go to Disney u but come on, yes I do think when you go somewhere you should know the hours the place is open.

Now I totally admit I'm a big proponent of personal responsibility. You drop 4k on a vacation and you don't bother to check the hours MK is open, then get upset because the park closes at 6?? Yeah thats on you.

Let's play "the Disney Difference"...

You go somewhere else, you look up the hours they are open. "hey look, its open 8-11pm M-F"
The Disney Difference... you must look at EVERY DAY and can't trust week 1 will be the same as week 2

Now I do research where to eat when I visit anyplace so I'll give you that. I guess that's a personality flaw, heck when we decide to eat off-site we Yelp places to eat. Why do you say 3 days? 30 minutes googling "where to eat at Disney" will give you 30k hits in .03 secs.

When you go offsite and use Yelp to help you chose... you pretty much only have to deal with "do they have availibility" and "do I want to go there". You're going to go eat.. its just a question of where.
The Disney Difference... Oh, I want to eat at Sci Fi.. Ok, but it takes an hour to get there from anywhere else but in DHS.. so I'll only eat there when I play on being at DHS.. and it rquires a park ticket too.. so can't swap if I don't have PH... oh darn, the only slot open is at like 9:45pm.. I don't want to eat that late.. but I really want to go there.. so maybe I'll swap days with Monday when I was originally going to MK, I'll goto DHS instead... oh wait.. now all my fastpass reservations change too... now I gotta try to fit 3 DHS FP changes and my dining reservation.. oh and all the FPs that I had in MK for Monday are now no good.. so I gotta try to change all those.. and where was I planning on eating on Monday... change that too... One choice can cascade to 10+ choices...
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
How about "Now more than ever"? It may not be a scam, but it's worded in a way to make it sound like you are getting more for your money. (Yes, I know it supposedly means "now is the time to come more than ever before", but that too is questionable.)
Huge reach. Marketing terms like "best" and "better than ever" are completely legal. "Best Pizza in NYC" is used by every pizza place.

Take everything with a grain of salt in the marketing world. Disney still does a great job for many people. Only hardcore fans even remember the parks as they used to be, and it wasn't all positive. We just think it was because our glasses are rose-colored (Yes, Mr. Franklin).
 

Disstevefan1

Well-Known Member
When I walk into a park and I can barely move, let alone get on rides, browse shops or get something to eat in a timely fashion - it's crowded. Overcrowded. Whatever the reason(s) it will impact how I feel about subsequent trips. If I wanted this experience, I could go to a local bar on a weekend night. This is not a vacation to me; it's enough work as it is, with all the planning involved. Not to mention the cost.

I agree with you. That being said, the OP rightly points out that the MK , by the numbers does not hit the maximum capacity number. so "technically" not over crowded, but what what the OP also points out, the attractions are not run to capacity, shuttered restaurants, and restaurants with half the registers closed, and other examples of purposeful under staffing, to make it feel overcrowded. Mission accomplished!

Whether we, the guest, label the experience as "overcrowded" or "a general poor guest experience" its the guest who is the loser, and to the guest, the hard ticket events seem to a way to escape the overcrowded or a poor guest experience.

Disney Wins.
 

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