The fallacy of overcrowded parks......

[PixarPerfect]

Travelers have a responsibility to perform appropriate trip planning which begins with picking the right time of year based on individual needs and preferences. Unless one is using a travel agent to handle everything, the responsibility for confirming times and options falls on the travelers' shoulders, especially when the trip is a little pricier. Anyone who has traveled should know to double-check details as the trip gets closer. That's actually how I found this forum.. Checking for a trip.

When I was younger my parents would spend months with travel books and agents planning trips around the world. Up until 15 years or so ago, we used travel guides like Frommer's, paper maps, and the phone which required a little more effort, but it was very possible to plan appropriately. Today we have the internet and travel apps which makes finding information ridiculously easy. It's not hard to be an educated and aware tourist these days. Anyone winging it shouldn't be surprised by, well, any surprises. In the DC example, it's well known that the African American museum requires tickets because of capacity issues. But if I didn't know, that info pops up at the top when I Googled, "visiting the African American museum." The internet makes it very easy to conduct simple due diligence.

Part of the planning process involves researching the locations, looking at reviews, checking for insider tips, confirming times, etc. With Disney that happens roughly 60 days out when the first real reservations can be made and then checking again before getting on the plane.

 

[BoarderPhreak]

I agree with you. That being said, the OP rightly points out that the MK , by the numbers does not hit the maximum capacity number. so "technically" not over crowded, but what what the OP also points out, the attractions are not run to capacity, shuttered restaurants, and restaurants with half the registers closed, and other examples of purposeful under staffing, to make it feel overcrowded. Mission accomplished!

Whether we, the guest, label the experience as "overcrowded" or "a general poor guest experience" its the guest who is the loser, and to the guest, the hard ticket events seem to a way to escape the overcrowded or a poor guest experience.

Disney Wins.

I don't know the numbers, but I find the 54k/day guest numbers oddly low for MK. But sure, reduced capacity in the rides and eateries don't help matters - as these serve to soak up guests. The park might not "technically" be overcrowded, but if it feels that way - you're right... Mission accomplished... But Disney isn't winning this one because that means I'm not coming back any time soon. Especially now, with all the construction going on. Right now, we're not even thinking about another trip and it'll be two years at least before we do so.

 

[Brad Bishop]

Do people really go to American amusement park in JULY and think it's not going to be crowded??

People don't go to Six Flags, Universal, Cedar Fair parks, or even locally owned family parks and think, "Oh, I had better plan this out 6 months in advance!" They may check hours but they generally expect the park to be open a reasonable amount of time. If I go to a non-Disney park on July 4th I expect:
- It's likely to be busy
- They'll likely have fireworks
- That means that the park will likely be open late 10-midnight is probably when they'll close
- I'll find something to eat either there or nearby.

If it's just a normal Summer day the park is likely to be open until 10PM or so and it typically closes earlier if school's in session. All reasonable expectations.

At no point, except for Universal with HHN - which I've never checked the hours on, do I expect to be ushered out of the park so that another party can begin. Once in a while there's a corporate party but those are typically held on days/nights when the park would otherwise be closed.

...but it's the customer's fault for not writing a thesis on, "How to visit Walt Disney World"

 

[Mickeyboof]

Travelers have a responsibility to perform appropriate trip planning which begins with picking the right time of year based on individual needs and preferences. Unless one is using a travel agent to handle everything, the responsibility for confirming times and options falls on the travelers' shoulders, especially when the trip is a little pricier. Anyone who has traveled should know to double-check details as the trip gets closer. That's actually how I found this forum.. Checking for a trip.

When I was younger my parents would spend months with travel books and agents planning trips around the world. Up until 15 years or so ago, we used travel guides like Frommer's, paper maps, and the phone which required a little more effort, but it was very possible to plan appropriately. Today we have the internet and travel apps which makes finding information ridiculously easy. It's not hard to be an educated and aware tourist these days. Anyone winging it shouldn't be surprised by, well, any surprises. In the DC example, it's well known that the African American museum requires tickets because of capacity issues. But if I didn't know, that info pops up at the top when I Googled, "visiting the African American museum." The internet makes it very easy to conduct simple due diligence.

Part of the planning process involves researching the locations, looking at reviews, checking for insider tips, confirming times, etc. With Disney that happens roughly 60 days out when the first real reservations can be made and then checking again before getting on the plane.

...sounds thrilling.

Meanwhile, in reality, how does one really express to the regular folk what in the hell a Tusker House is, who Victoria and Albert are, how crucial it is to wake up at 6am 130 days out to make sure you get that nifty Akershus reservation. That’s not fun or user friendly.

It’s a bold departure from the simplicity of a Disney Vacation.

 

[eliza61nyc]

People don't go to Six Flags, Universal, Cedar Fair parks, or even locally owned family parks and think, "Oh, I had better plan this out 6 months in advance!" They may check hours but they generally expect the park to be open a reasonable amount of time. If I go to a non-Disney park on July 4th I expect:
- It's likely to be busy
- They'll likely have fireworks
- That means that the park will likely be open late 10-midnight is probably when they'll close
- I'll find something to eat either there or nearby.

If it's just a normal Summer day the park is likely to be open until 10PM or so and it typically closes earlier if school's in session. All reasonable expectations.

At no point, except for Universal with HHN - which I've never checked the hours on, do I expect to be ushered out of the park so that another party can begin. Once in a while there's a corporate party but those are typically held on days/nights when the park would otherwise be closed.

...but it's the customer's fault for not writing a thesis on, "How to visit Walt Disney World"

1) There is an ocean between writing a thesis and googling basic information.
2) no, I don't think it's the customers fault but I also don't blame Disney.
As I said I'm more of a personal responsibility type of individual, I'm plunking down thousands of bucks on a vacation anywhere.....yes I'm going to Google where I can get a good meal and how.

As I said a simple glance at a calendar will tell you what days the MK closes early and has a party.

 

[PixarPerfect]

...sounds thrilling.

Meanwhile, in reality, how does one really express to the regular folk what in the hell a Tusker House is, who Victoria and Albert are, how crucial it is to wake up at 6am 130 days out to make sure you get that nifty Akershus reservation. That’s not fun or user friendly.

Thanks. We've enjoyed seeing the world, including experiencing some of the most difficult reservation destinations and top restaurants simply by planning ahead.

Disney restaurant information is all online and really easy to find. There are many videos on YouTube if one wants to "tour" a restaurant and who knows how many reviews and insider tips. It takes like a moment to find this information out and doesn't require any special skills beyond typing something into Google. In fact there are whole websites dedicated to "insider Disney tips and hacks."

I'm not sure I understand the real gripe here. Is it that Disney is too popular and rather than hold to a free for all spirit where everyone loses, they've created opportunities for people to secure what they want well in advance or that you want to be able to choose your restaurants the moment of without an insane wait? Or?

 

[xdan0920]

1) There is an ocean between writing a thesis and googling basic information.
2) no, I don't think it's the customers fault but I also don't blame Disney.
As I said I'm more of a personal responsibility type of individual, I'm plunking down thousands of bucks on a vacation anywhere.....yes I'm going to Google where I can get a good meal and how.

As I said a simple glance at a calendar will tell you what days the MK closes early and has a party.

Can we all stop engaging with this poster please?

 

[Mickeyboof]

Bringing it back to the original posting-

I did my research before my first visit in January 2018, The famous January which Touring Plans theorized that Disney was implementing optimized staffing. Meaning all my research was bull. Because the company decided to run half the logs on splash, one side of space, ect.

Cue Bob Iger saying the only possible way to combat “over crowding” is to raise ticket prices and introduce dynamic pricing. Hilarious.

What did I do wrong as the consumer?

Honestly, visits to Disneyland and Disneyland Paris, Universal, ect. are far more fair a balance between consumer and experience. I feel bad every time I hear people dropping thousands for Walt Disney World vacations. That place doesn’t deserve thousands of hard earned dollars.

 

[Mickeyboof]

Thanks. We've enjoyed seeing the world, including experiencing some of the most difficult reservation destinations and top restaurants simply by planning ahead.

Disney restaurant information is all online and really easy to find. There are many videos on YouTube if one wants to "tour" a restaurant and who knows how many reviews and insider tips. It takes like a moment to find this information out and doesn't require any special skills beyond typing something into Google. In fact there are whole websites dedicated to "insider Disney tips and hacks."

I'm not sure I understand the real gripe here. Is it that Disney is too popular and rather than hold to a free for all spirit where everyone loses, they've created opportunities for people to secure what they want well in advance or that you want to be able to choose your restaurants the moment of without an insane wait? Or?

The issue is Disney is charging more, then cutting/slashing quality all while citing attendance levels which they “simply cannot control” or limit other than price increases (attendance levels which they are CREATING an illusion of).

All of that combined with the absolute abandonment of “vacation” in the sense of a care-free relaxing environment. Instead, they implement extremely complicated and demanding services that are disguised to “help” the consumer plan their experience, but in reality it’s a giant data pool to ensure they don’t loose a single penny staffing the campus providing adequate service.

I feel like your trips must have been very freeing!

 

[PixarPerfect]

All of that combined with the absolute abandonment of “vacation” in the sense of a care-free relaxing environment.

I feel like your trips must have been very freeing!

I don't know that I would ever think of a Disney vacation as relaxing, even years ago, lol. Walking in crowds all day is never relaxing, at least to me. Disney parks are fun, yes. Relaxing, no.

Yep, very freeing. I'm sure you're mocking me for planning things out, but the little extra effort helps me routinely gain access to in-demand locations and restaurants, limited availability tours, and sold out spots around the world. We don't plan every moment, of course, but after driving into small towns with full booked hotels and dining at cruddy restaurants in my youth, I learned to scout out locations and options in advance. It also helps me pack.

There are legitimate reasons to be frustrated with the increased pricing and reduced staff issues. However, no one can claim ignorance of Disney's advance dining and FastPass+ options without also acknowledging their own lack of effort and investment into planning their trip. People today should know better; having to book restaurant reservations in advance or wait and wait and wait for a table is a part of any travel to a concentrated, popular destination.

 

[Mickeyboof]

I don't know that I would ever think of a Disney vacation as relaxing, even years ago, lol. Walking in crowds all day is never relaxing, at least to me. Disney parks are fun, yes. Relaxing, no.

Yep, very freeing. I'm sure you're mocking me for planning things out, but the little extra effort helps me routinely gain access to in-demand locations and restaurants, limited availability tours, and sold out spots around the world. We don't plan every moment, of course, but after driving into small towns with full booked hotels and dining at cruddy restaurants in my youth, I learned to scout out locations and options in advance. It also helps me pack.

There are legitimate reasons to be frustrated with the increased pricing and reduced staff issues. However, no one can claim ignorance of Disney's advance dining and FastPass+ options without also acknowledging their own lack of effort and investment into planning their trip. People today should know better; having to book restaurant reservations in advance or wait and wait and wait for a table is a part of any travel to a concentrated, popular destination.

I find my trips to Disneyland very relaxing. My favorite place on Earth. Disney World is a cheaper plane ride away, so I’m there more often.

There is absolutely no reason a place like Disney World needs to be a place like this:

Oh, I want to eat at Sci Fi.. Ok, but it takes an hour to get there from anywhere else but in DHS.. so I'll only eat there when I play on being at DHS.. and it rquires a park ticket too.. so can't swap if I don't have PH... oh darn, the only slot open is at like 9:45pm.. I don't want to eat that late.. but I really want to go there.. so maybe I'll swap days with Monday when I was originally going to MK, I'll goto DHS instead... oh wait.. now all my fastpass reservations change too... now I gotta try to fit 3 DHS FP changes and my dining reservation.. oh and all the FPs that I had in MK for Monday are now no good.. so I gotta try to change all those.. and where was I planning on eating on Monday... change that too... One choice can cascade to 10+ choices...

Real world vacation destinations do NOT function like this.

Hell, no OTHER theme park functions like this.

The only reason the distinction exsists is because it’s a data pool. Call it what you want (research, planning).

 

[PixarPerfect]

I find my trips to Disneyland very relaxing. My favorite place on Earth. Disney World is a cheaper plane ride away, so I’m there more often.

There is absolutely no reason a place like Disney World needs to be a place like this:

Oh, I want to eat at Sci Fi.. Ok, but it takes an hour to get there from anywhere else but in DHS.. so I'll only eat there when I play on being at DHS.. and it rquires a park ticket too.. so can't swap if I don't have PH... oh darn, the only slot open is at like 9:45pm.. I don't want to eat that late.. but I really want to go there.. so maybe I'll swap days with Monday when I was originally going to MK, I'll goto DHS instead... oh wait.. now all my fastpass reservations change too... now I gotta try to fit 3 DHS FP changes and my dining reservation.. oh and all the FPs that I had in MK for Monday are now no good.. so I gotta try to change all those.. and where was I planning on eating on Monday... change that too... One choice can cascade to 10+ choices...

Um, yeah. That happens with all trips that have moving pieces. Want to visit one part of Rome and eat at that restaurant but your ticket to the Borghese is at 3:00 and it's a 30 min hike through the park to the entrance.. and it's on the other side of the city? But you really want to eat at that restaurant and it's totally booked up except at 3:00...? You could come back tomorrow but you need to get to the Colosseum and it's best to eat at the other restaurant on that side of town. There's a window when you haven't booked anything and are in the right part of town but darn it, everything is closed down for 2 hours for lunch...

It happens. Changing plans can change all plans. That's hardly unique to Disney. If you have an idea of the must-do's during your trip, then you can plan around them. Last minute changes always throw a wrench in the works.

But to quote Edna, "luck favors the prepared, dahling."

 

[HongKongFu]

• Food lines over 30 minutes long
• Bus lines over 30 minutes long

So waiting 29 minutes for a bus(not a glamorous detailed boat or high quality piece of transportation....a friggin bus!!) or eats .....WHILE VACATIONING is still acceptable levels of crowding.

That ain't right; it just ain't right.

 

[Mickeyboof]

Um, yeah. That happens with all trips that have moving pieces. Want to visit one part of Rome and eat at that restaurant but your ticket to the Borghese is at 3:00 and it's a 30 min hike through the park to the entrance.. and it's on the other side of the city? But you really want to eat at that restaurant and it's totally booked up except at 3:00...? You could come back tomorrow but you need to get to the Colosseum and it's best to eat at the other restaurant on that side of town. There's a window when you haven't booked anything and are in the right part of town but darn it, everything is closed down for 2 hours for lunch...

It happens. Changing plans can change all plans. That's hardly unique to Disney. If you have an idea of the must-do's during your trip, then you can plan around them. Last minute changes always throw a wrench in the works.

But to quote Edna, "luck favors the prepared, dahling."

Ha! Okay I’m so glad my friends and family don’t travel like you do.

Good grief.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It seems that some people could use a little spontaneity in their life. Go visit some place and head out to dinner not knowing where you are going. Ask the person at the front desk for their favorite place nearby and try something new, something unplanned.

It is also funny how those who obsessively plan every minute of a vacation will defend sloppy design by Disney and laugh at expectations of care, planning and detail on Disney’s part.

 

[PixarPerfect]

It seems that some people could use a little spontaneity in their life. Go visit some place and head out to dinner not knowing where you are going. Ask the person at the front desk for their favorite place nearby and try something new, something unplanned.

It is also funny how those who obsessively plan every minute of a vacation will defend sloppy design by Disney and laugh at expectations of care, planning and detail on Disney’s part.

If that's directed at me you missed what I wrote. I don't plan every minute of my vacations (and said that) or fail to explore. What I do is plan out the stuff that's important to me and make sure that's taken care of in advance rather than leaving it to chance. Big difference.

 

[Mickeyboof]

If that's directed at me you missed what I wrote. I don't plan every minute of my vacations (and said that) or fail to explore. What I do is plan out the stuff that's important to me and make sure that's taken care of in advance rather than leaving it to chance. Big difference.

But at Disney World, they really don’t leave room for spontaneity.

It’s a theme park which was designed to evolve and reveal itself throughout one’s adventurous day. Not to be scheduled and prodded 130 days out.

 

[The_Jobu]

I am one of those odd, sad people who find pleasure in planning out the minutiae of any trip, particularly for the dedication required to get the most out of your time at Disney.

However, if I'm being honest, I struggle to imagine what a normal person would do if they just wanted to bring the family down to Orlando and didn't consume all things Disney as hobby as I do.

 

[eliza61nyc]

It seems that some people could use a little spontaneity in their life. Go visit some place and head out to dinner not knowing where you are going. Ask the person at the front desk for their favorite place nearby and try something new, something unplanned.

It is also funny how those who obsessively plan every minute of a vacation will defend sloppy design by Disney and laugh at expectations of care, planning and detail on Disney’s part.

I think it's all about what you expect.

there are still vacations where you can do that. Yes you can go to Paris and just wander around the streets and have an perfect, relaxing vacation, take your chances and eat at whatever Bistro you pass. I've done it. You can't go and then expect to get into Jules Verne restaurant without reservations 2 months in advance. You roll out of bed on a Tuesday and think you're getting into the Louvre, you're going to be upset. simply checking the hours will tell you it's closed on Tuesday. Yes you can just stroll around and pop into a museum but a little searching on the net will tell you if you get a museum pass you skip the lines and the long waits. things like that imo are not "planning" every minute but certainly make the trips go a lot smoother. just me.

We have gone to Disney without so much as 1 ADR but then we don't expect that we will be able to walk up to CRT and get in and if by chance we can, we know it's going to be a looong wait.

Again, it may simply be my personality. I like knowing basic stuff. Again I don't have to know every minute detail and I've never had the problems others seems to have planning dining but for me, knowing which days the MK closes at 6 is easy, simple basic information.

 

[xdan0920]

I think it's all about what you expect.

there are still vacations where you can do that. Yes you can go to Paris and just wander around the streets and have an perfect, relaxing vacation, take your chances and eat at whatever Bistro you pass. I've done it. You can't go and then expect to get into Jules Verne restaurant without reservations 2 months in advance. You roll out of bed on a Tuesday and think you're getting into the Louvre, you're going to be upset. simply checking the hours will tell you it's closed on Tuesday. Yes you can just stroll around and pop into a museum but a little searching on the net will tell you if you get a museum pass you skip the lines and the long waits. things like that imo are not "planning" every minute but certainly make the trips go a lot smoother. just me.

We have gone to Disney without so much as 1 ADR but then we don't expect that we will be able to walk up to CRT and get in and if by chance we can, we know it's going to be a looong wait.

Again, it may simply be my personality. I like knowing basic stuff. Again I don't have to know every minute detail and I've never had the problems others seems to have planning dining but for me, knowing which days the MK closes at 6 is easy, simple basic information.

BAH

Do you get paid by word or by post? Is there a bonus for being repetitive?