The fallacy of overcrowded parks......

[Brad Bishop]

It seems that some people could use a little spontaneity in their life. Go visit some place and head out to dinner not knowing where you are going. Ask the person at the front desk for their favorite place nearby and try something new, something unplanned.

It is also funny how those who obsessively plan every minute of a vacation will defend sloppy design by Disney and laugh at expectations of care, planning and detail on Disney’s part.

That is a really good point: There are some folks who really need (I mean in an OCD sort of way) every moment planned, the route planned, etc. My father's wife was like this. We decided to drive into NYC and we just took whichever exit seemed OK and were going to wander down into the city. It was pretty cool. We went through Sleepy Hollow, Tarrytown, and a few other neat places we never would have otherwise seen. Everyone in the car thought it was cool except my father's wife who was freaking out because we didn't have a plan.

Eventually, we made it into Manhattan and parked and grabbed a slice from some pizza place and wandered over to the Tenement Museum. All just based upon: Oh, that'd be cool.

His wife made it though but you could tell that, for her at least, every moment needed to be planned. She needed that control or she wasn't having a good time.

I point this out because everyone thinks differently and expects everyone else to think the same.

 

[wdisney9000]

She needed that control or she wasn't having a good time.

Many people have a difficult time (our outright refuse) realizing that control is an illusion. You can plan a pretty picnic but you cant predict the weather.

 

[NCO91590]

I don't know that I would ever think of a Disney vacation as relaxing, even years ago, lol. Walking in crowds all day is never relaxing, at least to me. Disney parks are fun, yes. Relaxing, no.

Yep, very freeing. I'm sure you're mocking me for planning things out, but the little extra effort helps me routinely gain access to in-demand locations and restaurants, limited availability tours, and sold out spots around the world. We don't plan every moment, of course, but after driving into small towns with full booked hotels and dining at cruddy restaurants in my youth, I learned to scout out locations and options in advance. It also helps me pack.

There are legitimate reasons to be frustrated with the increased pricing and reduced staff issues. However, no one can claim ignorance of Disney's advance dining and FastPass+ options without also acknowledging their own lack of effort and investment into planning their trip. People today should know better; having to book restaurant reservations in advance or wait and wait and wait for a table is a part of any travel to a concentrated, popular destination.

Right! I can't imagine just showing up to Disney without planning anything in advance. Seems like a colossal waste of money to wait in long lines for rides when you could have gotten a FP. And I don't go anywhere without knowing where to eat lol. I get hangry and I would be annoyed if I wasted money on crap food because I didn't know where to get a better meal for the same price. NOT all Disney restaurants are created equal--and they're all expensive, so why not try to at least try to plan that out?

If I want a relaxing vacation, I would book an all-inclusive somewhere. I don't do Disney to relax lol.

 

[GusEzra]

In my opinion part of the reason the parks seem over crowded it the Fast Pass system, instead of the ride queues sucking up the guests (which is what they are ment to do) they are free to shop, wander around, and eat, till its time for the ride, then they basically walk on to the ride and then are back in to the park. This also makes the stand wait times longer and leads to the perception that there are more guests in the park.

Fps long standby times and ADRs make it so people are just biding their time till their next scheduled thing, no one wants to wait in a long queue and run the risk of Missing something they scheduled. that just puts more people away from the rides and in the shops and open areas where they were never intended to spend most of their time. and dont even get me started with parades and fireworks.

 

[jloucks]

So waiting 29 minutes for a bus(not a glamorous detailed boat or high quality piece of transportation....a friggin bus!!) or eats .....WHILE VACATIONING is still acceptable levels of crowding.

That ain't right; it just ain't right.

Hmm,,, you bring a solid case.

 

[Mickeyboof]

Right! I can't imagine just showing up to Disney without planning anything in advance. Seems like a colossal waste of money to wait in long lines for rides when you could have gotten a FP. And I don't go anywhere without knowing where to eat lol. I get hangry and I would be annoyed if I wasted money on crap food because I didn't know where to get a better meal for the same price. NOT all Disney restaurants are created equal--and they're all expensive, so why not try to at least try to plan that out?

If I want a relaxing vacation, I would book an all-inclusive somewhere. I don't do Disney to relax lol.

If i go to Disney World, I go on a whim without a single thing booked. I refuse to play their games and book anything.

I go to Disney World to relax. I wouldn’t waste my money going to some place that stresses me out and requires ultimate planning.

It’s different for everyone.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Right! I can't imagine just showing up to Disney without planning anything in advance. Seems like a colossal waste of money to wait in long lines for rides when you could have gotten a FP. And I don't go anywhere without knowing where to eat lol. I get hangry and I would be annoyed if I wasted money on crap food because I didn't know where to get a better meal for the same price. NOT all Disney restaurants are created equal--and they're all expensive, so why not try to at least try to plan that out?

If I want a relaxing vacation, I would book an all-inclusive somewhere. I don't do Disney to relax lol.

That’s just a it, you shouldn’t have to be forced to plan months in advance or be stuck waiting in long lines. That shouldn’t be the choice. There is no reason there should not be sufficient capacity to allow people to explore the parks as designed. There is still abandoned space in the world’s busiest theme park and that is not because people didn’t plan months in advance. The crowds aren’t a fact, they are a creation that is repeatedly excused and blame shifted to other customers.

 

[VaderTron]

Huge reach. Marketing terms like "best" and "better than ever" are completely legal. "Best Pizza in NYC" is used by every pizza place.

Take everything with a grain of salt in the marketing world. Disney still does a great job for many people. Only hardcore fans even remember the parks as they used to be, and it wasn't all positive. We just think it was because our glasses are rose-colored (Yes, Mr. Franklin).

Not at all. It would take a hardcore fan to remember way back, but you don't have to go very far back to find a better WDW. Even 3 years ago was better than today's WDW, though 4-5 years ago was even better than that.

2016 WDW -
Magical Moments:

CM sees our anniversary celebration buttons, congratulates us, then asks us if we want to play a trivia game. We agree and get the answer correct. He gives us an extra fastpass to use on ANYTHING in the park (we were at MK).

TS restaurant knew ahead of time that we were celebrating or anniversary. At our table they had sprinkled Mickey-head confetti and offered us 2 complimentary glasses of champagne. Our dessert came out with a special edible banner that said congratulations.

On a visit to La Cava de Tequila we had a seat at a table. Our server was fantastic and conversational. He asked what we were celebrating (saw buttons) and asked us how many years when we told him it was our anniversary. As we were deciding what to order he asked if we have ever tried their tequila flights. We told him we usually get just one drink because it's pricey and prefer not to use our one drink on a shot. He was super enthusiastic about their limited edition 12 year tequila they had available for just another few days. So, when he brought out our margarita we ordered he also brought us 2 shots of the 12 year limited edition tequila saying it was on the house as a celebration gift. (It was dangerously delicious!)

We stayed one night at the Polynesian (rented DVC points) and were greeted warmly at the desk. They told us they had something special for us on our anniversary. They brought us over to a cute older woman who hand made a fresh flower lei for my wife and a fresh seaweed lei for me.


Villainous Moments:

One night MK closed at 8pm but Epcot had EMH till 11pm (so not even the darkest of villainy). We had parked our car at MK earlier in the day, but decided we wanted to take the monorail from MK to Epcot in the evening. When we left Epcot at close the monorail back to MK was shut down. We asked about buses. They said to take a bus back to our hotel and catch one to MK. We took the bus to our hotel, but we found out that no more buses were going to MK. I called Guest Services and asked if my car would be alright overnight in the MK parking lot. They said it was at risk of being towed. I asked if someone could take me to my car because all the normal Disney transportation had stopped for the night. They said they couldn't help me so I called an Uber to take me to my car. (Cost about $9)

While in line a number of rude South American tourists pushed past us in the standby line. Then a few minutes later more did. Everyone was getting annoyed. Then someone behind us started to get into a verbal fight with some more that were coming. They said that their party was waiting for them up ahead. The man yelled that there were already a dozen people that had pushed past (he wasn't exaggerating) and people needed to wait in line like everyone else. They eventually just dropped it and the guests continued pushing past everyone. The angry guest in line left their family in line and went to report the issue. A few minutes later he came back and was irritated. He told his family the CM said they were just trying to reach their party who had been waiting for them in line ahead.

2019 WDW -
Magical Moments:

We had tried to get a reservation at Sci Fi Cafe for months, but the only available time was 9:30pm. Day of we went to the desk and asked if we could get in without a reservation. They said it would be about an hour to wait and we would have to sit at a regular table in the back instead of a car since all cars are for reservations only. We agreed. It took nearly an hour and a half, but they told us for the extra wait time we would get a car table. Nice upgrade.

We agreed to a DVC tour (we have been before) when asked by a DVC representative on Hollywood blvd. They offered to give us direct transportation to Saratoga Springs from HS. When they took us to the vehicle we got to go through the backstage area behind ToT. While they told us pictures were forbidden, we got a brief behind-the-scenes tour for free. I really enjoyed that little perk.

After 3 car accidents on I-4 delayed our arrival our bands scanned blue at the gates. The CM said that there was something wrong with our pass and we would have to go to Guest Services to have it resolved. The line took 30 minutes and we were already almost late for our first FP+. After waiting in line and getting the error fixed (Still don't know what it was. We still had 3 months left on our pass and it was paid for.) the CM noted that we had just missed our FP+ reservation. She gave us replacement FP+ reservations to use.

Villainous Moments:

Same DVC tour mentioned above took a dark turn. I guess because we had toured before (he mentioned the dates of our previous tours during a rant) they brought out "The Hammer". Not joking, I think this guy had maffia ties. His badge said he was from Jersey and he had the tact of a NYC Taxi driver. Most of the "sales pitch" came off as threats and insults. He said, "So what is it, you like the free ice cream? You like the little gift card we give you? I thought you wanted to get into the DVC family. That's why most people come on a DVC tour. But now this is, what, your third time doing a tour? So, what's the deal? You want to buy or are your just here for the freebies?" I explained that I had not requested a tour that we were approached while walking past the booth in the park. I also had told the attendant we have been on the tour before. Yet he still offered us the gift card for $150. What am I going to do, turn down free money? Additional insults thrown at us during the 'hard sell' portion of the sales pitch were that we were insane for driving to disney for just a day and driving home (we are "locals", but not in Orlando so have to drive a few hours). He repeated that we were nuts/crazy/insane to do that about 4 times during his rant. In the end my wife and I agreed that was almost not worth the $150 gift card and free FP's to be insulted and pressured to buy like we were at a timeshare presentation in Branson rather than a DVC resort.

Asked a CM for a popcorn refill and got attitude while they tried to give me a smaller cup refill instead of refilling my bucket. (See previous post in my history for full story.)

60 days prior and at 7am I was unable to get a single rider FP+ for SDD, FoP or SDMT for any days of our visit. Not even at an inconvenient time.

During our anniversary trip we were told "congrats" a number of times, but had no incidents where we were shown special appreciation for returning to celebrate with them again. Not at our hotel, not at any TS restaurant, not by any park CM's. Nothing. Maybe we shouldn't have come to expect anything, but the Disney of the past raised our expectations. Now they have lowered their guest appreciation and it's noticed.


Main takeaway: These are just a few examples. I could go on but this has turned into a book already. The issue isn't remembering just the good times of the past. I remember both the good and the bad of now and then. There's just more good things that have been lost along the way.

 

[NCO91590]

That’s just a it, you shouldn’t have to be forced to plan months in advance or be stuck waiting in long lines. That shouldn’t be the choice. There is no reason there should not be sufficient capacity to allow people to explore the parks as designed. There is still abandoned space in the world’s busiest theme park and that is not because people didn’t plan months in advance. The crowds aren’t a fact, they are a creation that is repeatedly excused and blame shifted to other customers.

I think if you were taking a "once in a lifetime" trip, or even a every 3-5 year visitor, you would want to maximize your time in the park and be as efficient as you can be. My parents go 1-2x/yr on average and they are WAY chill about going through the parks. They don't care as much about missing any specific attraction, snack, parade, firework display, etc because they are fortunate enough to just catch it in a few months or even the next year.

Going to Disney any time, to me, is like going to NYC over the holidays. It's a zoo and you can get stuck waiting in lines for shows, not getting a reservation anywhere to eat that decent, shoulder to shoulder people. And I just cant fathom going to NYC during a busy time of year and not having at least a plan.

I believe that Disney got busier and they put things in place to minimize wait times and allow people to eat where they want to eat. Now the unfortunate part of that is having to do everything so far in advance. But to me, that's a trade off for getting to see what I want to see.

 

[eliza61nyc]

That’s just a it, you shouldn’t have to be forced to plan months in advance or be stuck waiting in long lines. That shouldn’t be the choice. There is no reason there should not be sufficient capacity to allow people to explore the parks as designed. There is still abandoned space in the world’s busiest theme park and that is not because people didn’t plan months in advance. The crowds aren’t a fact, they are a creation that is repeatedly excused and blame shifted to other customers.

How??
The park was designed what in 1970 for the population at the time.
Are you saying there really aren't more people in the parks??

 

[Mickeyboof]

How??
The park was designed what in 1970 for the population at the time.
Are you saying there really aren't more people in the parks??

Are you saying there haven’t been expansions and new parks since the 1970s? Disney World today looks almost nothing like it’s 1970s plan.

 

[MaximumEd]

You can plan a pretty picnic but you cant predict the weather.

Mrs. Jackson.

 

[Mickeyboof]

I think if you were taking a "once in a lifetime" trip, or even a every 3-5 year visitor, you would want to maximize your time in the park and be as efficient as you can be. My parents go 1-2x/yr on average and they are WAY chill about going through the parks. They don't care as much about missing any specific attraction, snack, parade, firework display, etc because they are fortunate enough to just catch it in a few months or even the next year.

Going to Disney any time, to me, is like going to NYC over the holidays. It's a zoo and you can get stuck waiting in lines for shows, not getting a reservation anywhere to eat that decent, shoulder to shoulder people. And I just cant fathom going to NYC during a busy time of year and not having at least a plan.

I believe that Disney got busier and they put things in place to minimize wait times and allow people to eat where they want to eat. Now the unfortunate part of that is having to do everything so far in advance. But to me, that's a trade off for getting to see what I want to see.

Eh, New York during the holidays still doesn’t take as much extensive planning as what Walt Disney World seems to require. (Unless you’re like me who refuses to give them the MDE Data until day of).

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think if you were taking a "once in a lifetime" trip, or even a every 3-5 year visitor, you would want to maximize your time in the park and be as efficient as you can be. My parents go 1-2x/yr on average and they are WAY chill about going through the parks. They don't care as much about missing any specific attraction, snack, parade, firework display, etc because they are fortunate enough to just catch it in a few months or even the next year.

People only have to be efficient because capacity has been intentionally strained. People are happy if they do about 8 experiences in a day. That is a lot easier to achieve if capacity is designed for each guest to do 1.5 - 2 attractions per hour and not something like 0.8 per hour. Adequate capacity would allow people time for their must do experiences and for them to discover something unplanned.

I believe that Disney got busier and they put things in place to minimize wait times and allow people to eat where they want to eat.

They have not. There is even attraction and restaurant space that remains unused and under used.

How??
The park was designed what in 1970 for the population at the time.
Are you saying there really aren't more people in the parks??

Crowding is not directly proportional to increased attendance over time. Disney could have increased capacity instead of maintaining or even decreasing capacity. That park designed for the 70s had attraction and restaurant spaces that are today outright closed or seldom used.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Remember when you could book a WDW vacation (in what was the "off-season) 3-4 months in advance, without pre-planning every detail, and still somehow manage to ride all the rides, see all the shows, and eat at most places you wanted to eat at? Sure, you couldn't eat at CRT or see Hoop-Dee-Doo, but most other things were absolutely available day-of. We would get dining reservations because we often traveled with others so large parties really had to have them, but when it was just 3-4 people going? Go for it.

Sad that people nowadays think that pre-planning every aspect of a WDW vacation is something that MUST be done or you WON'T experience everything.

BTW - You can still wander around Paris without pre-planning your day. We booked Eiffel a day in advance, did the hop-on/hop-off bus, and had a great time. Hungry? Find a cafe somewhere to eat, it isn't hard to do.

I highly encourage people visit other Disney theme parks, for what Anton Ego called, "perspective".

 

[NCO91590]

They have not. There is even attraction and restaurant space that remains unused and under used.

Just because there's room for attractions and restaurant space doesn't necessarily mean I'm not going to want to ride on the same rides and eat at the restaurants I want to eat at. Every square inch of Disney could have an attraction or a place to eat, but I'm still going to plan so that I can go to my favorites.

Now you could make the argument that there aren't enough rides that are fun to go on that people would wait 30+ minutes to go on (ie: the waste that is the Nemo ride)or restaurants that are worth the money and calories

 

[lazyboy97o]

Just because there's room for attractions and restaurant space doesn't necessarily mean I'm not going to want to ride on the same rides and eat at the restaurants I want to eat at. Every square inch of Disney could have an attraction or a place to eat, but I'm still going to plan so that I can go to my favorites.

Now you could make the argument that there aren't enough rides that are fun to go on that people would wait 30+ minutes to go on (ie: the waste that is the Nemo ride)or restaurants that are worth the money and calories

How does the once in a lifetime visitor you previously based the assessment on going to have established favorites? At some point you’re favorites were an entirely new experience. That you do not want to explore doesn’t mean that is the case for everyone. Why should everyone else be limited to your favorites?

 

[NCO91590]

How does the once in a lifetime visitor you previously based the assessment on going to have established favorites? At some point you’re favorites were an entirely new experience. That you do not want to explore doesn’t mean that is the case for everyone. Why should everyone else be limited to your favorites?

I'm going to venture a guess that even if someone has not been to WDW before, they would have an idea of what rides they want to go on and what character meals they would want to experience. Although it's possible that some people just show up at the gates the day of and don't think a thing about it, I think the internet makes it pretty easy to get the lay of the land. Otherwise there wouldn't be a million planning websites.

I'm not suggesting that people don't want to explore and try new things. I'm just saying that just adding new rides and restaurants isn't going to make everyone abandon what they want to do. You can make a million Hall of Presidents, but people are going to want the Splash Mountain...KWIM?

 

[LaughingGravy]

But it's a business! It's purpose is to make money for the shareholders!

 

[John park hopper]

Yes Disney is a business and in business to make money but without happy satisfied guests (business is based on) they will not be making money for long for the long haul