TDA Changes Affecting WDW?

[pcf1385]

I just don't get it....

Why is it that this portion of the boards has become so cranky in the past few years? When I first started coming here I remember seeing picture updates that were happy, board members doing nice things for others (does anyone remember the time one member helped another member's autistic son meet snow white?) and having people be excited about possible new developments while still being critical but in constructive ways. It's seems that after the 50th celebration, the news and rumors board has become increasingly negative and lots of posts, no matter what they are about, end in arguments and name calling. Why can't we just be adults and agree to disagree on Lutz in a civalized way? Some like him, some don't, and as long as we realize that either view is an opinion, what's wrong with people having different views of the man and his articles?

 

[Lee]

A couple of things I didn't understand about Al Lutz's assertions:
-What was so controversial about the "Where Dreams Come True" vs. "Year of a Million Dreams"? I understand it. Why does it "confuse people."

The average guest has no idea what YOAMD is about. They know little to nothing about Dream Squads, or prizes being given out. Part of the issue is the confusion caused by two marketing campaigns colliding and neither connecting that well with the public.

-Al Lutz is the type of person who complains about theming and whether or not current theming fits and what not. So why does he want a "Villians Theme" at DCA? How does that fit in with the spirit of California at all?

The Villian them has nothing to do with California. The conversion of Paradise Pier into a better representation of a seaside Victorian amusement park establishes the theme. The Villians are just an enhancement to the ride. Much like the Toy Story gang for Mania underneath Screamin, and the Little Mermaid themed carousel. Nobody complains about them.

-I still can't see Lutz's info about rennovating DCA coming to light.

Then prepare to be surprised.

-I loved DCA when I went. But Lutz, among others, feels DCA is a failure and people don't respect it and is in favor of redoing it.

I like DCA, too, but it's not that simple. The fact is that they built an under-funded, incomplete, half-day park right across the esplenade from the world's greatest theme park. Guests voted with their feet. On an average day Disneyland say 3 to 4 times the attendance DCA got. The park simply did not connect with the public. You would be hard pressed to find more than 1% of guests who have visited DCA who wouldn't be in favor of the proposed changes.
(For an example of how to do it right, look at Tokyo. Their second gate gets as many clicks as their first. Of course it helps that TDS's budget alone equalled the entire Anaheim resort expansion that brought us DCA, Grand Cali, a huge parking garage and Downtown Disney.)

But that would mean that Disney is literally admitting a mistake. If Lutz thinks people don't respect the park now, people will surely dislike it even more if they knew Disney had a "failure" on there hands, regardless if they redo it. That's not good business.

No. The public doesn't think that way. If they build a better park, they will come. It's no secret that DCA didn't work. They aren't hiding that fact from anyone. They can't. Disney is not perfect. They make mistakes. They would be making a much bigger mistake to let DCA continue in it's current state.

 

[Epcotian]

That's VERY unfortunate for this site...


Really? Wow... and here I thought it was the most visited park in the world WITH attendance INCREASING and several updates planned...

Again... in the top 10 visited parks in the world... a Shell? I wish I owned a few of those shells...

New Mountain
New Musical
New TS Restaurant
No expansion? :veryconfu


Fact? whatever...

Just be sure to let us know when you become an executive at Disney and we'll be sure to call you a moron.

Interesting... dumb? Don't agree. Success? Maybe, maybe not. I can only say that after every commercial that's been on TV recently with the Disney Parks logo... my little girl tells us she's ready to go back to Disney world. Never before this marketing campaign has that happened... could be age related, but the latest commercials sure hit that spot with her. And then she hits us up for a trip... and it worked.

Very well put. There are several families that I know that visited WDW for the first time this year. Every one of them came home in awe of the parks with no complaints about MGM or AK or anything else. This year's campaign convinced each of them to make a 24 hr drive to Orlando to see the parks. Seems to me like the only people complaining about the WDW parks are message board nerds like us. I have no doubt that things aren't handled in the same way as they were 20 years ago, but WDW still offers a product that Disney's target audience (which isn't message board nerds like us) seem to love.

 

[tirian]

The average guest has no idea what YOAMD is about. They know little to nothing about Dream Squads, or prizes being given out. Part of the issue is the confusion caused by two marketing campaigns colliding and neither connecting that well with the public.

Thank you for reiterating this! Everyone who posts on this site already takes great interest in Disney; and frankly, our personal opinions regarding the YoMD don't matter. The fact is that the campaign itself did not work as well as originally hoped. The public knows about the "night in Cinderella castle" because Disney hyped the heck out of it, but only a small percentage of Guests realize that this is part of a larger campaign. The commercials are impressive, but don't say much more than, "Hey, this place is magical"; and Disney has been overusing that tagline for more than a decade. Plus, the Disney Parks rebranding confused the public, which was familiar with Disney World and Disneyland, but not "Disney parks." Slapping the disgustingly bland logo on a castle that is almost identical to Cinderella's did not help.

This is what everything looks like to Guests:
Where Dreams Come True/Year of a Million Dreams/Disney Parks/Free Night at Cinderella Castle

:hammer:

It's too much! That's why the Disney Parks franchise has been killed and the YoMD promotion is getting an overhaul.

P.S. I won't call him a moron, but Rasulo is a very poor business-person who can only be commended for climbing the corporate ladder in spite of his glaring deficiencies. I don't always agree with Al Lutz because he is too negative; but in this case, he's right.

 

[tirian]

There are several families that I know that visited WDW for the first time this year. Every one of them came home in awe of the parks with no complaints about MGM or AK or anything else. This year's campaign convinced each of them to make a 24 hr drive to Orlando to see the parks. Seems to me like the only people complaining about the WDW parks are message board nerds like us. I have no doubt that things aren't handled in the same way as they were 20 years ago, but WDW still offers a product that Disney's target audience (which isn't message board nerds like us) seem to love.

The general commercials are working well, but the YoMD campaign is not working as well as hoped. Nobody is making the trip to WDW just for a one-in-ten-million chance of staying inside the castle, and that is the only aspect of the YoMD campaign that has been marketed.

The general advertising*, however, does convey the old-school Disney magic, and is extremely successful.

*by "General Advertising," I'm referring to the chill-inducing commercials that would have been produced whether this were the YoMD or not.

 

[ToTBellHop]

The general commercials are working well, but the YoMD campaign is not working as well as hoped. Nobody is making the trip to WDW just for a one-in-ten-million chance of staying inside the castle, and that is the only aspect of the YoMD campaign that has been marketed.

The general advertising*, however, does convey the old-school Disney magic, and is extremely successful.

*by "General Advertising," I'm referring to the chill-inducing commercials that would have been produced whether this were the YoMD or not.

And this is exactly why on January 1st, we will see a renewed interest in making sure guests know all about the YoaMD. Disney (should have) learned with the HCOE that trying to get guests to book a vacation based on perks does not really do anything (i.e. the original HCOE commercial talking about Soarin and LMAX--the average non-fanatic had no idea what these were). Make commercials that tug at people's heartstrings, and they will book. Then once they are at WDW, start making sure they know all about the YoaMD. Tell them when they check in at their resort. Make sure there is something snazzy at the entrance to every park reminding guests of what they will see, and then make guests happy in the parks so they tell their friends what happened and build the long-term reputation of the company. I'm sorry, but the average non-Disney fan will not be turned on to ride concepts they don't understand or the prospect of winning a free churro. Convince them with the commercials that their kids will have a blast and make memories of a lifetime, and then wow them when they actually show up by showing the magic is just as powerful for adults as it is for kids. We already know that is the case, but we are not Disney's target with these promotions. We will return frequently without any campaign because we see the Tower of Terror and feel like kids again every time we ride it.

 

[tirian]

^^ Exactly.

 

[TP2000]

Well, that depends on what you count as a "dark ride."

By my count, Magic Kingdom has:

1. Pirates of the Caribbean
2. Splash Moutain
3. The Haunted Mansion
4. Peter Pan's Flight
5. The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
6. Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin
7. You could also count Stitch's Great Escape (though that's not really a "ride" in terms of a moving vehicle).

So MK does have quite a few dark rides.

A dark ride is, well, a dark ride. Most of those attractions listed above aren't "dark rides". And Disneyland also has all of them, except Stitch's Great Escape which isn't even a ride, it's a show.

A dark ride is the kind of ride where you get in the little car and go past scenes from a movie or cartoon or something. Walt was great at them, and perfected the art form.

Disneyland has seven dark rides. Magic Kingdom has three. Why don't they add more dark rides at Magic Kingdom? The dark rides are all very popular at Disneyland. And the Monsters Inc. dark ride at DCA is popular too.

Disneyland dark rides:
Peter Pan's Flight
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride
Alice In Wonderland
Pinochio's Daring Journey
Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin
Snow White's Scary Adventure
The Many Adventures of Winnie The Pooh

Magic Kingdom dark rides:
Peter Pan's Flight
The Many Adventures of Winnie The Pooh
Snow White's Scary Adventure

What's the deal with that?

 

[TP2000]

Can Lee or one of the WDW insiders here provide some insight or background into the new WDI structure for the American parks?

Why does Anaheim have two Senior Vice Presidents from the creative division in charge of the two small parks there? Bob Weis has DCA, and Tony Baxter now has Disneyland. But if Anaheim has two, why would WDW also only have two SVP's in charge of the four big parks there? Tom Fitzgerald has Magic Kingdom, Epcot and MGM, and Joe Rohde has Animal Kingdom.

Remembering, of course, how small and cramped Disneyland is. And how tiny the Castle is. And how narrow the walkways are. Why would that tiny little 52 year old park need it's own celebrity Imagineer to be in charge of it? The walkways are all so much bigger in the Florida parks, don't they all need their own separate Senior Vice President Imagineer to oversee them?

And since there is nothing currently under construction at Animal Kingdom, and nothing rumored to even be in serious planning stages, what exactly does Mr. Rohde do with his time? I joked earlier about picking out the drapes for Yak & Yeti, but seriously, what does one do as a creator when nothing is being created?

 

[ToTBellHop]

A dark ride is, well, a dark ride. Most of those attractions listed above aren't "dark rides". And Disneyland also has all of them, except Stitch's Great Escape which isn't even a ride, it's a show.

A dark ride is the kind of ride where you get in the little car and go past scenes from a movie or cartoon or something. Walt was great at them, and perfected the art form.

Disneyland has seven dark rides. Magic Kingdom has three. Why don't they add more dark rides at Magic Kingdom? The dark rides are all very popular at Disneyland. And the Monsters Inc. dark ride at DCA is popular too.

Disneyland dark rides:
Peter Pan's Flight
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride
Alice In Wonderland
Pinochio's Daring Journey
Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin
Snow White's Scary Adventure
The Many Adventures of Winnie The Pooh

Magic Kingdom dark rides:
Peter Pan's Flight
The Many Adventures of Winnie The Pooh
Snow White's Scary Adventure

What's the deal with that?

yeah...we were more talking about the Fantasyland-style dark ride than simply a ride in the dark. A dark ride tends to have characters with little movement and the rides try to tell a story with bright colors and great use of black lights to give everything that blue glow we love. I believe the term "dark ride" originally came from this use of dark lights, not the fact that the ride was in the dark (I could, in fact, be completely wrong, it just sounds logical to me, because the rides are not truly in the dark).

 

[kcnole]

There's more than just those three rides.

HM is a dark ride, Pirates is a dark ride (granted DL has those too)

SSE is a dark ride, Maelstrom is a dark ride, Gran Fiesta Tour is a dark ride. Portions of ToT are a dark ride although its a more of a hybrid thrill/dark ride. You're focusing on only one type of dark ride. A dark ride is just a ride in the dark that focuses your attention on certain scenes as you ride by while distracting you from other areas that lack anything. All of those rides listed above do that.

 

[Lee]

Can Lee or one of the WDW insiders here provide some insight or background into the new WDI structure for the American parks?

At this point, the structure is so fluid that it's hard to get a real handle on. When I heard about the Disneyland structure a month or so ago, I really expected a similar situation to develop at WDW. Didn't happen.

The reason, as I see it, that Disneyland and DCA each get a SVP for two different reasons.
-Disneyland got Tony because that's the job he's wanted (and needed) forever. Lassater is a big Baxter fan. Easy to do the math.
-DCA got Weiss because the scope of the project needs someone with experience to ride herd over it. As I know it, Bob isn't doing any design work so much as some big-time project management.

WDW "gets only two" because:
-Joe owns AK. It's his baby and nobody can take it from him. He gets along well with Beth Stevens, and that helps tremendously. But, even though Joe is overseeing AK, he has also been involved in other, more international, projects at the same time.
-Fitzgerald...different. It's not exactly accurate to say he has the same position. I don't see him really having the kind of stroke that Tony has at DL or Joe at AK. He is kinda doing a similar job, just sort of by default. Him and Jacobson.:shrug:

 

[KevinPage]

Hello, my name is Al Putz. You may know of my endless and moaning columns on Miceage.com about Disneyland for these many years. I singlehandedly got rid of Cynthia Harris and Paul Pressler while acting as Walt Disney Incarnate.

Now that Disneyland is on the upswing and getting more attention than that crappy resort they call Disney in Florida (with it's horrid heat, annoying swamps and tacky English tourists) you will find all of my articles littered with "digs" & "potshots" to anything Orlando, FL related (once that gets old after 10 years, I'll start making fun of people for wanting to live in central Florida).

You see, I'm like a 12 year old. I ignored your Florida park when MY park was deteriorating. It was painful to admit your success. Now that MY park has/is being restored to it's former glory, I'm going to rub it in your face as much as possible. I have an ego problem and need to tell the world how much better MY PARK is over yours, if you can even call it a theme park anymore (Lassetter & Baxter are from CA, not Florida, so MY park wins).

So pick up an apple fritter, grab a cup of coffee and click those payboxes ad nasuem.

 

[DisneyNut2007]

Hello, my name is Al Putz. You may know of my endless and moaning columns on Miceage.com about Disneyland for these many years. I singlehandedly got rid of Cynthia Harris and Paul Pressler while acting as Walt Disney Incarnate.

Now that Disneyland is on the upswing and getting more attention than that crappy resort they call Disney in Florida (with it's horrid heat, annoying swamps and tacky English tourists) you will find all of my articles littered with "digs" & "potshots" to anything Orlando, FL related (once that gets old after 10 years, I'll start making fun of people for wanting to live in central Florida).

You see, I'm like a 12 year old. I ignored your Florida park when MY park was deteriorating. It was painful to admit your success. Now that MY park has/is being restored to it's former glory, I'm going to rub it in your face as much as possible. I have an ego problem and need to tell the world how much better MY PARK is over yours, if you can even call it a theme park anymore (Lassetter & Baxter are from CA, not Florida, so MY park wins).

So pick up an apple fritter, grab a cup of coffee and click those payboxes ad nasuem.

The best post of the day.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Hello, my name is Al Putz. You may know of my endless and moaning columns on Miceage.com about Disneyland for these many years. I singlehandedly got rid of Cynthia Harris and Paul Pressler while acting as Walt Disney Incarnate.

Now that Disneyland is on the upswing and getting more attention than that crappy resort they call Disney in Florida (with it's horrid heat, annoying swamps and tacky English tourists) you will find all of my articles littered with "digs" & "potshots" to anything Orlando, FL related (once that gets old after 10 years, I'll start making fun of people for wanting to live in central Florida).

You see, I'm like a 12 year old. I ignored your Florida park when MY park was deteriorating. It was painful to admit your success. Now that MY park has/is being restored to it's former glory, I'm going to rub it in your face as much as possible. I have an ego problem and need to tell the world how much better MY PARK is over yours, if you can even call it a theme park anymore (Lassetter & Baxter are from CA, not Florida, so MY park wins).

So pick up an apple fritter, grab a cup of coffee and click those payboxes ad nasuem.

um...who's the 12-year old? Both of you? Should make a very happy couple then.

Still...props for being witty...

 

[Lee]

um...who's the 12-year old? Both of you?

Wait...wait....I'm tryin' to picture Kevin Page as a 12-year old....nope...can't.
:shrug:

 

[DisneyNut2007]

Still searching for Enderikari...

 

[darthjohnny]

The average guest has no idea what YOAMD is about. They know little to nothing about Dream Squads, or prizes being given out. Part of the issue is the confusion caused by two marketing campaigns colliding and neither connecting that well with the public.


The Villian them has nothing to do with California. The conversion of Paradise Pier into a better representation of a seaside Victorian amusement park establishes the theme. The Villians are just an enhancement to the ride. Much like the Toy Story gang for Mania underneath Screamin, and the Little Mermaid themed carousel. Nobody complains about them.


Then prepare to be surprised.



No. The public doesn't think that way. If they build a better park, they will come. It's no secret that DCA didn't work. They aren't hiding that fact from anyone. They can't. Disney is not perfect. They make mistakes. They would be making a much bigger mistake to let DCA continue in it's current state.

I know a lot of people don't understand about the YoaMD. Especially if they're staying off property. But, the problem was described in such a way, as if it almost stopped people coming to the parks because they were "confused" when, at least to me, both are part of a larger campaign.

Could you explain yourself about the Villians? How will it be intertwined into the Peir theme?

I still don't see this large DCA redo coming to full light. They way it's described, why doesn't Disney just demolish everything and start from scratch?

And, a lot of people will think that way. Think about it. A family goes to California. Would they rather go to Six Flags, an established and popular park, or spend even more money to go to a "failure"? It won't be good for Disney.

 

[WDWFigment]

And, a lot of people will think that way. Think about it. A family goes to California. Would they rather go to Six Flags, an established and popular park, or spend even more money to go to a "failure"? It won't be good for Disney.

I think people, even those with little knowledge of what's going on at Disney, will still choose DCA. Because whereas Six Flags is popular, Disney is popular and has name reputability. People won't see the park as a failure, but something that those perfectionists at Disney are seeking to improve.

Sure, some people will choose Six Flags over Disney, but those people would do that independent of any changes at DCA. Those are the individuals who don't like Disney for whatever reasons (price, atmosphere, types of attractions, etc), not those who believe Six Flags offers a "winner" whereas Disney offers a "failure".

 

[Lee]

Could you explain yourself about the Villians? How will it be intertwined into the Peir theme?

It would just be a slight overlay theme on the ride. Many rides have themes that don't necessarily relate back to the overall theme of the park or area. King Triton's Carousel doesn't relate directly to the Pier theme. Neither does Toy Story. They are just themes for individual rides that all happen to exist on the Pier. (NOTE: I haven't confirmed that the Villian thing is a sure thing for Screamin'.)

I still don't see this large DCA redo coming to full light. They way it's described, why doesn't Disney just demolish everything and start from scratch?

That would be cutting off the nose to spite the face. Pointless and a step backwards.

And, a lot of people will think that way. Think about it. A family goes to California. Would they rather go to Six Flags, an established and popular park, or spend even more money to go to a "failure"? It won't be good for Disney.

The general public doesn't pay any attention to that sort of thing. They (and I) don't consider DCA a failure. They will see a lot of money spent to improve a park that needs it. Don't give the public credit they don't deserve. They don't pay that close attention.