Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

spacemt354

Chili's
2 Porgs, right?
Ah I only remembered the one Chewie was about to eat - but you're probably right, I need to see it again.
Ha ha! Oh yeah.. I forgot. Question- is it just me or do the past couple of movies have more suicide missions than any SW movie before?
Rogue One was essentially a suicide mission story, there were a more in TLJ, so yeah there has been an upward tick interestingly enough.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Ah I only remembered the one Chewie was about to eat - but you're probably right, I need to see it again.

Rogue One was essentially a suicide mission story, there were a more in TLJ, so yeah there has been an upward tick interestingly enough.
Cheap way to make someone a "hero"? :p
 

mf1972

Well-Known Member
C895D292-EEC7-473D-ACA4-29E98733E7F0.jpeg
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Original Poster
Eh, it works for some characters, but it was shown in Finn's case how stupid he was being...he thought he was making a difference, but he wasn't. Same thing in Poe's case...he played hero ball and ended up decimating the bomber fleet in the process.

More stupid than that, he didn't just get it decimated, he got it eradicated.

Please don't die... until you drop your payload!!
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Eh, it works for some characters, but it was shown in Finn's case how stupid he was being...he thought he was making a difference, but he wasn't. Same thing in Poe's case...he played hero ball and ended up decimating the bomber fleet in the process.
Yeah. And, I was glad they called him out on that...but...it also is an issue.

But, again...this goes to a theme that I see underlying in hollywood sci fi (well, at least Star Trek post JJ, and now Star Wars)...

The military doctrine, or environment, doesn't make a lick of sense.

Poe says "hey, we are gonna do this". Leia sees it is a tactical mistake and gets on the wide broadcast spectrum and says "belay that order, all fighters return to the ship!".

That is FAR more likely.

So, who was really at fault, when you get down to it? Poe for being a reckless flyboy? Or the commanders of the fleet, who seemed to know this was going to be a disaster but decided to allow their military assets to be destroyed willy nilly so that Poe could "learn his lesson"?

Think about it...Poe mobilized, of his own accord, the majority of the remaining fighter/bomber assets the Rebels have. That means the ships were fueled, they were armed, the flight deck was prepared, they were launched...all without the Commander on the SAME SHIP being aware or intervening. You can get away with that when it's a few rogues, that essentially "defy orders" and fly out with two, maybe three ships...but, an entire squadron plus a bomber squadron? And the reasoning is...because Poe said so?

It doesn't make sense... And, when you realize that, you are left with the impression that Leia was, in a way, out of line...blaming Poe for her own failure.

Either she didn't know Poe was mustering the attack, which means that her organization lacks discipline and order to the point of ineffectiveness, which is her failing in her leadership.

Or, she DID know Poe was mustering the attack, but let it happen anyway, which means she's being vindictive because it was such a loss of assets, and only because of that. It implies that she was fine with it enough to let it happen, but won't take ownership that she let it happen when it turns into a massive overall loss. It's not "clever" or "wise" to blame Poe for that, if she was aware...it's petty, which is a failing in her leadership.

There is a third option, which is she DID know, tried to stop it, but the flight crews and pilots ALL ignored her, which goes back to her organization lacking discipline, and a reflection of a failing in her leadership.

It was why in that little "rewrite", which is far from perfect, but...where I was going with that section...I just skipped the whole planet bombardment and had the dreadnaught immediately destroy ships in a "larger" Rebel fleet. It was to try and keep the dressing down (which I liked), while injecting reason that doesn't reveal all involved to be totally inept.

One, with the Rebel fleet being larger, there is less "urgency" to conserve assets from them...they can fight it out. The tip of the scale is the overwhelming power of the lasers on the dreadnaught, which can destroy a ship that can hold it's own against a lesser First Order ship (read...Star Destroyer), but can't withstand this weapon.

Two, if the bombers are not part of established flight squadrons yet, there is little chance for Command to override Poe's action, due to reaction time (see my comment above about getting the fighters/bombers ready in dock). And, even though I left in Leia's objection (I liked the Poe dressing down, that was good), it isn't as convoluted when Poe is doing it on a whim, and the actions of his fellow pilots make more sense to follow him when they are a) In immediate danger themselves, being already in a state of peril and b) are watching the First Order obliterate the fleet (not some abandoned ground base, because, it was established by the time of the attack that the last transport was away)

Three, Poe's action makes more sense, so you can sympathize with his decision...only to have the military doctrine shoved in his face later during the dressing down. You see it as heroic, not silly. But, you also understand where Leia is coming from later, in that the assets are more important to the larger mission than the capital ships being lost (which...in and of itself doesn't make much sense...but, it makes more sense than what actually happened on screen). And, since the mission is to collect the bombers and leave quickly, Poe's actions FORCED the fleet to stay longer. This inserts urgency into Poe's action to attack the ship...instead of him taking his time with some convoluted prank calling to Gen. Hux, ending with a yo momma joke.
 
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flynnibus

Premium Member
Think about it...Poe mobilized, of his own accord, and if we are to understand Leia later...the majority of the remaining fighter/bomber assets the Rebels have. That means the ships were fueled, they were armed, the flight deck was prepared, they were launched...all without the Commander on the SAME SHIP being aware or intervening. You can get away with that when it's a few rogues, that essentially "defy orders" and fly out with two, maybe three ships...but, an entire squadron plus a bomber squadron? And the reasoning is...because Poe said so?

Holy cow dude... did you write all that to simply not catch that the conflict wasn't just that the bomber run was made but that Poe didn't retreat and abort when the attack started to fail.

His recklessness was pushing to finish the job vs aborting. He got the commit for the attack (even tho they were skeptical) - the problem was the plan he championed failed in execution and cost too much. That's pretty much standard faire in military hindsight :)
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Holy cow dude... did you write all that to simply not catch that the conflict wasn't just that the bomber run was made but that Poe didn't retreat and abort when the attack started to fail.

His recklessness was pushing to finish the job vs aborting. He got the commit for the attack (even tho they were skeptical) - the problem was the plan he championed failed in execution and cost too much. That's pretty much standard faire in military hindsight :)
Yes, I did miss that, obviously. I've only seen it once.

Consider my points well placed, but incorrect. :p
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Holy cow dude... did you write all that to simply not catch that the conflict wasn't just that the bomber run was made but that Poe didn't retreat and abort when the attack started to fail.

His recklessness was pushing to finish the job vs aborting. He got the commit for the attack (even tho they were skeptical) - the problem was the plan he championed failed in execution and cost too much. That's pretty much standard faire in military hindsight :)
There is a third option, which is she DID know, tried to stop it, but the flight crews and pilots ALL ignored her, which goes back to her organization lacking discipline, and a reflection of a failing in her leadership.

(doesn't change this)
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Original Poster
The other thing to consider with the Rebellion is that they are, at this point, all volunteers. They weren't conscripted, they are not paid professionals. You either have to inspire a force like that and issue wrist slaps (or eject them from the force) for disrespecting command, or, ruthlessly execute the disobedient (you're either with us or against us) and rule from fear. By the end, they didn't even have a brig to throw anyone into.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Poe was responsible for more deaths in this movie than I can count. I kind of have a love/disgust relationship with him now. ;)
Well, the bombing run shouldn't have been approved then.

When Leia called it off, they shouldn't have disobeyed her orders, which is a failing in her leadership.

And, as far as the later deaths and Poe's mutiny...that was Holdo's fault. If she had just shared the plan, and not sent Finn and Hope off to get DJ, he wouldn't have been able to sell them out and point out their plan to the First Order. And Poe wouldn't have mutinied if he knew what was going on. And, the fact he COULD mutiny, again shows the lack of discipline and structure in the Rebels, which is a reflection of failure of leadership.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
The other thing to consider with the Rebellion is that they are, at this point, all volunteers. They weren't conscripted, they are not paid professionals. You either have to inspire a force like that and issue wrist slaps (or eject them from the force) for disrespecting command, or, ruthlessly execute the disobedient (you're either with us or against us) and rule from fear. By the end, they didn't even have a brig to throw anyone into.
That's a fair point.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
The other thing to consider with the Rebellion is that they are, at this point, all volunteers. They weren't conscripted, they are not paid professionals. You either have to inspire a force like that and issue wrist slaps (or eject them from the force) for disrespecting command, or, ruthlessly execute the disobedient (you're either with us or against us) and rule from fear. By the end, they didn't even have a brig to throw anyone into.

This is true.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
If you ever come across an admiral or general, ask them what they think about a subordinate demanding to know if they have a plan.
Correct, sortof. I've worked for Generals and Senior Commands. I work with a guy who is an instructor at the Navy War College. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I'm not wholly unaware of the dynamics involved with military culture, unlike some of these writers appear to be.

But, yes, at a certain point, questioning order can be inefficient, in a military organization with discipline. That doesn't mean it is entirely discouraged either.

But, now I'll turn your other (good) point around.

You can't make the argument that "you have to treat subordinates with a softer touch because they are largely volunteers at this point, and therefore command structure is fluid" and then argue "well, strict military command structure means she should expect blind loyalty"

She didn't have to reveal the entire plan, but she was proceeding as if she didn't have one, when she did.

If you come across and Admiral or a General, ask them what they think about not sharing their tactics with their senior field commanders, and what the likelihood of success could be.

They could have written around this if they built up the "traitor in our midst" story a bit more, and tossed in some dialogue between her and Poe where she says "I can't tell you, because we aren't sure who is listening" in effect.

But, they did, I completely missed that.
 
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21stamps

Well-Known Member
I would have just liked to see Poe show a bit more remorse and understanding of what he caused, in both scenarios. Not some deep depression or self exile.. but he didn’t appear to see the magnitude of the outcome.
 

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