News Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge - Historical Construction/Impressions

[sedati]

Probably the fact the trains can make the tight s-curve they are building.

I've seen others worried about this, but if you take a look at the Western River Railroad at Tokyo Disneyland you'll see that it does just fine with a pretty tight and winding route.

 

[choco choco]

There are two lingering problems that people get hung up on. Inability to separate distaste of SWE from the RoA project and secondly a lack of understanding of what is being done.

Apart from my harping on it, if you asked most members of this board how much the RoA is being shortened by they'd produce a number 2-4x reality.

Even some insiders have spread misinformation because they are so against the project they haven't bothered to seek the facts.

Again, the main problem with this project is that it is poor land management on the part of Disney. They did not need to eat into Rivers of America and the current design will hamstring the entire resort for decades.

 

[mickEblu]

There are two lingering problems that people get hung up on. Inability to separate distaste of SWE from the RoA project and secondly a lack of understanding of what is being done.

Apart from my harping on it, if you asked most members of this board how much the RoA is being shortened by they'd produce a number 2-4x reality.

Even some insiders have spread misinformation because they are so against the project they haven't bothered to seek the facts.

So what percentage was the ROA shortened? I remember we originally heard up to as much as 40%. What did it end up being? 20%?

 

[BrianLo]

Again, the main problem with this project is that it is poor land management on the part of Disney. They did not need to eat into Rivers of America and the current design will hamstring the entire resort for decades.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Fantasmic dedicated storage was sort of an unnecessary evil that needed to occur. Most of the lost real estate is taken up by that warehouse. The train was drastically re-routed, but the RoA shortening was primarily to facilitate the new railroad route and the storage.

What design element is being hamstrung?

So what percentage was the ROA shortened? I remember we originally heard up to as much as 40%. What did it end up being? 20%?

Approximately 13.5%. Essentially what happened was the part of Tom Sawyer's island that was being used for Fantasmic storage was cut and a similar acreage shifted "backstage" for the warehouse. Instead of the previously on-stage shoehorned solution.

 

[SSG]

Approximately 13.5%.

That little? I was guessing 17-18%

 

[BrianLo]

That little? I was guessing 17-18%

Yes, exactly. And you actually follow and are interested in the project!

 

[choco choco]

I'm not sure what you mean. The Fantasmic dedicated storage was sort of an unnecessary evil that needed to occur. Most of the lost real estate is taken up by that warehouse. The train was drastically re-routed, but the RoA shortening was primarily to facilitate the new railroad route and the storage.

What design element is being hamstrung?



Approximately 13.5%. Essentially what happened was the part of Tom Sawyer's island that was being used for Fantasmic storage was cut and a similar acreage shifted "backstage" for the warehouse. Instead of the previously on-stage shoehorned solution.

What I wrote a couple months ago...

It is difficult to add stuff to Disneyland. TP2000's statement :


is entirely incorrect, as space that was used as valuable back of the house and about 1/3 of an existing attraction cannot be considered - under any definition of the word - "unused." Of course, Star Wars space is in fact replacing something old - as it is replacing parts of Rivers of America - for something new.

But back to the current point. Disneyland can logistically only grow west, into land that is currently asphalt parking lots. Again, if they were hell-bent on glomming Star Wars land to Disneyland (Mistake #1), this parking lot was their smartest choice. That way, if future generations wanted to expand another land into Disneyland, they could ring entrances to each land around the Rivers of America (kind of like how Hong Kong Disneyland designed multiple lands around their big river).

Instead, TDA/Burbank/Idiot Planner decided to cut off all expansion by having Star Wars land and their show buildings take up the entire distance between Critter Country and Big Thunder Ranch, thereby cutting off the ability for any future lands to be accessed off a central route (Mistake #2). They then announced the west lot would be taken up by a gargantuan hotel, thus taking the land that could have been Disneyland's (Mistake #3). And then they announced the building of an undersized parking structure on the Sybron/Pumbaa lot, instead of considering turning car access for the entire resort around and having all day parking concentrated in Sybron/Pumbaa. Since that plot abuts the 5 Freeway, all cars could then come directly on and off the freeway without having to navigate side streets like they currently do (Mistake #4). In addition, having that lot maximally built out now will save money in the future, because it will be ready-made for when they open a 3rd gate (Pumbaa is the only lot that has easy access to the Strawberry Field site) and clears the way for a Mickey and Friends demolition, which would have given Disneyland further expansion room if they had gone with a "Lands' Branched Around Rivers Of America" site plan.

But no: in a single, ill-conceived stroke, Iger managed to take out a pretty historical part of the current Disneyland and simultaneously block any ability for his successors to add on without exorbitant cost (essentially, leveling Star Wars land sometime in the future), despite the fact that a good masterplan could have avoided both. He's not a very bright one, that guy.

 

[Pam Hates Penguins]

That little? I was guessing 17-18%

Better than I imagined a year ago.

 

[BrianLo]

What I wrote a couple months ago...

This illustrates my point though...

There are two lingering problems that people get hung up on. Inability to separate distaste of SWE from the RoA project and secondly a lack of understanding of what is being done.

Primarily your complaints are related to SWE placement/project rather than the RoA component of the project. Also that post over-estimates the shortening of the RoA by nearly 2.5x.

I realize one project forced the hand of the other, but SWE itself actually occupies a minuscule acreage of the former route of the RoA. Primarily, it was the berm and railroad (and Big Thunder Ranch really) that are being massively shifted for Star Wars. Strangely no one is generally worried about those aspects, they are all hung up on the river.

Without going gravely off topic, the show buildings actually don't cut off access to the Western parking lots. They are just planning for a berm in between Critter Country and where the show building kicks off a few hundred meters later. They are obviously placing a hotel on the parking lot, but that really has nothing to do with the RoA project and more Disney's current non-desire to expand that direction.

Edit: I don't know how to link the slider version of the image, but I encourage people to head to one of the Mice Chat articles with it, and really give it a critical look. You can see it's Fantasmic storage that pretty much occupies all the former river acreage. Not Star Wars.

 

[mickEblu]

Approximately 13.5%. Essentially what happened was the part of Tom Sawyer's island that was being used for Fantasmic storage was cut and a similar acreage shifted "backstage" for the warehouse. Instead of the previously on-stage shoehorned solution.

Wow, even less than I thought. If you don't mind me asking, how did you come up with that number?

Also, wasn't the old Fanstasmic storage at Fort Wilderness? Is that gone now? I have to admit, I'm not too familiar with TSI's layout. In my 70+ visits I think I've been twice and only around the back end of the ROA (By boat) two or three times.

 

[BrianLo]

Wow, even less than I thought. If you don't mind me asking, how did you come up with that number?

Also, wasn't the old Fanstasmic storage at Fort Wilderness? Is that gone now? I have to admit, I'm not too familiar with TSI's layout. In my 70+ visits I think I've been twice and only around the back end of the ROA (By boat) two or three times.

Originally I simply measured the Mice Age map (which is essentially a tracing of the plans). Later I measured Google Earth once the new layout became more visible after the berm came down. Both are very consistent with one another.

I'm admittedly not the greatest expert on the TSI layout either, but yes they just had everything stored in the closed off fort.

The RoA didn't actually need to be shortened at all to pull off SWE current acreage. The profile could have remained approximately the same length and Fantasmic storage could have been kept on the island. Since the berm had to go under the knife anyways, they made a smart call and modified the profile a bit to make space for a back of house warehouse.

No one will blame Fantasmic for shortening the river with a scapegoat like Star Wars, but that's kind of the true reason. Star Wars incited change, but the rationale was storage. If that makes sense?

Instead of a 13-14 minute ride it will be 11-12 minutes.

 

[Phroobar]

I wonder if they will reopen the fort to guests? Probably not.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Instead of a 13-14 minute ride it will be 11-12 minutes.

Or they can slow down 13% and make it the same length!

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

I wonder if they will reopen the fort to guests? Probably not.

Will everyone PLEASE stop hyperventilating about Fantasmic! with zero understanding of how it actually works? I have friends who work Fan as talent, techs, and costuming. There are several facilities that support the show backstage:

The Fort is largely used for supplies used to stage the show, including pop-ups, tables and chairs, low-level lighting, canvas or plastic walls along the Island's waterline, props, etc. Generally things that don't need to be cleaned or repaired on a regular basis (or transported back and forth).

The Marina was the home of the Princess Barges; the support boat that towed the pyro barges, pushed Columbia when the engine is disabled (the show can't run without Columbia, but can without MarkTwain), and general support on the river; and TicTock the late crocodile. It's also where they load the three pyro barges before towing them in front of the stage.

The main Entertainment Building behind Toontown, known as N-19, is home to tech services and costuming.

At this time it is not known exactly what will be housed in the new Fantasmic! building behind the RR track, other than boat storage. What is known is that it will be larger than the old marina and have improved facilities. But it is unlikely that it will supplant any storage in the Fort because everything would have to be transported back and forth to the Island. Logically, it could include a small pyro storage locker, sufficient for one day's supply of shells.

The new metal building being completed in the area MiceChat identified as Expansion Area is designated in the City Permit as wardrobe and dressing area. One might assume that some of this space will be for Fantasmic! costume storage. This would replace space at N-19, which is at a premium with the shifting lineup of parades.

Nothing indicates that these facilities will significantly change use of the Fort or return it to guest usage.

If anyone has more hard data about the return of Fantasmic!, by all means chime in. But everything I have heard suggests that storage for the show is not being appreciably diminished on the Island. Rerouting the river and the train wasn't to benefit Fantasmic!--it was for Star Wars Land. Any benefit to Fan is a byproduct.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Or they can slow down 13% and make it the same length!

Not a bad idea considering that now there'll be some interesting scenery on the trip.

 

[mickEblu]

The new metal building being completed in the area MiceChat identified as Expansion Area is designated in the City Permit as wardrobe and dressing area.

So it's not a Frozen Attraction?

 

[flynnibus]

No one will blame Fantasmic for shortening the river with a scapegoat like Star Wars, but that's kind of the true reason. Star Wars incited change, but the rationale was storage. If that makes sense?

Sorry, this rationale conveniently obmits that the reason F! And the railroad need to cut into the ROA area was because of swl eating other space. The impetus is swl... even if it's not sitting in the footprint itself.

 

[choco choco]

Primarily your complaints are related to SWE placement/project rather than the RoA component of the project.

They are obviously placing a hotel on the parking lot, but that really has nothing to do with the RoA project and more Disney's current non-desire to expand that direction.
.

Exactly!?!?! I'm not sure what we are arguing. The question is whether or not Disney could have avoided this whole Rivers of America/Fantasmic/Berm/Railroad Re-route/Loss of Backstage Space mess to begin with. The answer of which is, absolutely yes, and there were many benefits to not touching this area, including the fact that building on a completely level, empty, ground-level asphalt parking lot is a lot cheaper than having to completely demolish and regenerate a heavily used area and I still haven't heard a coherent argument yet as to why Star Wars Land was located here.

If they were building this in the Simba Lot, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[BrianLo]

Exactly!?!?! I'm not sure what we are arguing. The question is whether or not Disney could have avoided this whole Rivers of America/Fantasmic/Berm/Railroad Re-route/Loss of Backstage Space mess to begin with. The answer of which is, absolutely yes, and there were many benefits to not touching this area, including the fact that building on a completely level, empty, ground-level asphalt parking lot is a lot cheaper than having to completely demolish and regenerate a heavily used area and I still haven't heard a coherent argument yet as to why Star Wars Land was located here.

If they were building this in the Simba Lot, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I totally understand where you are coming from, but that is a new question entirely from what @TP2000 brought up. Why are people so against RoA aspect of the project? It's not because of what they are doing but why they are doing it. Lots of people, yourself included, have many many issues with the why part of it. Which is understandable and respectable.

As @flynnibus said, it's impossible to ever look objectively since the why is always first and foremost "Star Wars".

Anyone is welcome to PM me if you want to continue the subject, but I don't want to run us off topic anymore than we have and I think we are all saying the same things from different perspectives at this point.

 

[britain]

I believe it's simply because operations has long thought RoA to be an inefficient use of space. Every square foot over there was not providing as much value or utility as every square foot everywhere else.

They probably have been looking for an opportunity to do something with the rivers space for a long time, but there was never anything big or important enough to justify the change. And Star Wars is here, it's an opportunity to do so.

Putting Star Wars in tomorrowland or toontown still leaves the river's inefficiency problem unaddressed.