sshindel's Epcot Manifesto

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Original Poster
So I just found this via some Tumblr post, the SeaOrbiter, a floating mobile ocean research base being built by the French.
http://seaorbiter.com/#



tumblr_inline_npac9zE5nI1rxwfvw_540.jpg


Would be a hell of a way to rejuvenate The Living Seas without Nemo

I think I'm in love...

I can't wait to dig through all of this
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Original Poster
Alright, I've made it through page one. It took me a majority of the day as I got time.

I agree with your ideas on Soarin. I'd like the space utilized better and the entrance moved. There's no true reasons not to, it's feasible (expensive of course, but feasible) and it may replace the "oh my, isn't moving Small World to World Showcase a great idea!?!?" parties.

I also agree with your other uses of space in The Land. It's actually a gorgeous pavilion in general, just needs some love. I'd like to see something replace Circle of Life. As a planet, we've come a long way in our recycling and change force for saving the planet. There's a lot to be said there - and a lot is already being said in various ways in Animal Kingdom. However, AK focuses more on saving the Animals, and with Planet Watch on the chopping block, conservation messages can work here as well in a new way. But more importantly, there's such a push to sustainable eating. Living with the Land already embodies that, and a few adjustments can really bring the pavilion full circle.

I'd like to see Universe of Energy updated completely - I'm just not totally sure how. There's so much in the world going on with finding new energy resources, that there are a lot of options for talking points.

I think I sold my soul to your Mission Space expansion ideas.

I also like the ideas for SSE, and continuing the focus on communication coming down. I like the in car screens, but think they could be used a lot more effectively.

Imagination. Ugh. I can't. I don't even know what sounds good. There is just so much out there to build on.

Most importantly, I agree with your overall feeling of a lose of concept. I miss the music. I listen to Epcot music as lullabies (I'm a giant baby, I know). Right now, Epcot is a giant festival with some pavilions to blow through. It's not cohesive and it's terrible.

Side note - the fountains at Imagination are working.
A million thanks for reading! I do get to some ideas for hitting just about every pavilion in FW as you dig into the further pages. I think @George was right, I probably should have posted one giant post each day for however long that took, so people wouldn't look at the wall of text and feel they didn't have time to read. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to read!
I'm also glad to hear the fountains are working. I can't remember how long it's been since I ventured that far into the pavilion!

LOVE the line
" Right now, Epcot is a giant festival with some pavilions to blow through. It's not cohesive and it's terrible."
Perfect description.
 

rkleinlein

Well-Known Member
Bring in exciting and new sponsors instead of the tired industrial bohemouths of the past. Disney makes enough as a theme park, it doesn't need to rely as heavily on sponsorship as they used to.

Bring in Tesla, Sony, Samsung, SpaceX, Virgin...list goes on. Companies that are pushing the boundries of technology. Heck, it's not all about secrecy...the stuff they show off at TED and CES is all available to the public (and their competitors) and is still amazing. Samsungs flexible phones, for example...

Exactly. Even the tech behemoths of today (Apple, Google, etc.) would be more exciting and appropriate than the likes of Exxon and Chevrolet. Even as I type this I am laughing. A high tech "test track" for state of the art concept vehicles sponsored by. . . . Chevrolet? Not Tesla? Chevrolet. Really? (Does Kodak still sponsor Imagination? If so that explains a lot.) The pace of technology has accelerated exponentially since Epcot opened and nobody at Disney has kept up. Do they even realized this?
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Exactly. Even the tech behemoths of today (Apple, Google, etc.) would be more exciting and appropriate than the likes of Exxon and Chevrolet. Even as I type this I am laughing. A high tech "test track" for state of the art concept vehicles sponsored by. . . . Chevrolet? Not Tesla? Chevrolet. Really? (Does Kodak still sponsor Imagination? If so that explains a lot.) The pace of technology has accelerated exponentially since Epcot opened and nobody at Disney has kept up. Do they even realized this?
Kodak pulled sponsorship a long time ago.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
I'd love to see SpaceX and NDT get a swing at improving the space pavilion.
I think you said it right. Passionate people. That is the key.
A SpaceX overhaul would be much better than the failed movie tie in (that most people don't even remember it IS a movie tie in) that's the "plot" now.

I don't mind the "astronaut training center" plot all that much, but there's a lot they could do to make it seem even more "realistic" (in terms of plot, not ride experience per se) and really capture the imagination.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
@sshindel

You asked me to rant, so here it is.

The original EPCOT Center told a story. And, while it may not have been "official", I'm quite sure that WED/WDI planned it that way at least during the initial blue sky design process.

The difference between it and a Castle Park, and why it was so groundbreaking (and still is unique) is that it had an overarching theme with a grander purpose than just to entertain. It's arguable that IoA, with it's unofficial "Literature" theme is a similar concept, but with a different core.

So, that said...the story was simple (and forgive me for repeating what I'm sure many already noticed for themselves).

Futureworld was about WHERE we are going, and World Showcase is about celebrating who we were going WITH and honoring the cultures of the world on our "Spaceship Earth". Otherwise, why actually staff it with people FROM that country? It's a cultural experience. Yeah, some say it's whitewashed, but then again would you really want to see the dirty bits when honoring the best aspects of unique cultures is the point?

So, overarching story told, Futureworld told a more specific story with each pavilion. I'm going to stick with the original ones, not Wonders of Life, because I think Wonders of Life, while a neat pavilion, didn't really "fit" with the side of Futureworld it was placed (rather, I think it would have been better on the life sciences side, in between the Land and the Sea).

Your journey begins with Spaceship Earth, where you learn how humanity has used communication to advance society and improve the standard of living throughout history. It's emphasised how important communication is for our future (and not just communication technology, but the messages involved, hence why the final message is so important, and ties together Futureworld with World Showcase, which you get to later in the day).

From there, you go to the Communicores, which show off cutting edge CURRENT technology. Communicore East should be focused on (imho) hard sciences, and serve as a gateway to the pavilions behind it, and Communicore West should do the same for Life Sciences. It was never exactly like that, but that's how I think it should be done. However, it was more like that at one point.

Here, I'll show how. These are the "old" attractions for East and West respectively.

East
EPCOT COmputer Central with the backstage computer area show. Astuter Computer Review then later Backstage Magic.
SMRT-1
Great American Census Quiz - What was "tech" about this was HOW the data was collected and presented
Manufactory - Touchscreen american flags and other stuff
Get Set Jet Game - Load Luggage onto Airliners using touch screens.
Compute a Coaster - Design your own roller coaster in then unique CAD/3-D software

Travelport - This was a plug for vacation destinations, and didn't really fit with what I thought the theme should be, but was still neat. Much better than the IBM exhibit with it's touchscreen monoliths that's in West today.

Electronic Forum with the News Choice Theater and the Future Choice Theater

Energy Exchange with a giant model of deep sea drilling, a Blowout Preventer (hehe, after the Gulf, I bet Disney is glad that isn't there anymore), Oil Shale, a Coal Locator game, Energy facility models, all highly detailed, a Video Bicycle (a similar attraction found its way into the Life pavilion later), a Driving Machine focused on fuel efficiency, and a Hundred Watt bulb that you could power yourself using a friction crank, solar cells and various terminals that presented information about Energy creation.

Stargate Restaurant (now Electric Umbrella, I believe). Beverage Base was rolled up into that as well, I believe.

Centorium - The shop...but two stories back then.

West
West served less as a gateway to the ecological sciences of it's side, but it was still presentation based around tech (not a line of Xbox and Playstations, a fire video game, a boring IBM Monolith exhibit and a game about how to save and invest money...even though I love my Piggy Banks, they don't belong in Communicore necessarily!)

West had...

Futurecom with the Information Fountain, Age of Information, a Microchip demonstration, the Intelligent Network was a fiber map of the US (imagine a map of the INTERNET using Akamai technologies!), Teleconferencing.

Expo Robotics had robots that would either sketch a picture of you or would airbrush t-shirts that you could buy.

It also had Outreach that would talk about future plans and concepts, and the Teacher Center which had educational materials. Most of that space is basically closed to the public or is a meet and greet now.

So, all that said...as you pass through the "gateway" that was Communicore to EPCOT East or West, you were taken into a smaller story.

East was about hard sciences. Energy production was how we have, do and would power our SSE in the future.

I'll skip over Horizons for a moment...because it should be the LAST ride you do in Futureworld, but I'll get into that in a few lines.

World of Motion was about how, like we learned the impact and importance of communication in SSE, Transit is equally as important.

Now, considering the old rides used to take about 30 - 45 minutes AFTER waits, it was time to munch. So, we come to Odyssey. Nothing special here, but it could be revived to be something special.

So, you make your way over to the Life Sciences (for lack of a better term) side.

The Sea introduces you to the wonders of 3/4 of our earth, and how, like space, it's just as much a new frontier for us to expand, responsibly, into and harness for the betterment of humanity and our SSE (seeing a trend here?)

The Land does the same with the remaining 1/4 of our earth, and it's rather sad the ride has been cut down over the years. The reason why, as many put it, it looks like a food court shopping center is because it's supposed to be (imho) a celebration of ecological farming techniques and environmentally responsible, yet healthy, foods. I think it should go back to that (a celebration of food). Sourin' is neat, but doesn't fit with the current movie. And the Lion King movie is a joke. Entertaining, but it's also darkly amusing that it's about the ecological destruction caused by a destination amusement park / resort complex.

They also could add more exhibits showing the ecological initiatives of WDW, it would do well to take up the walls upstairs which are bland...

But, back to the "story".

So, so far we've explored all aspects of our SSE. We've seen how communication is what separates man from beast (I use that loosely), we've seen how we are able to harness energy and transit to improve our world. We've been informed how important taking care of the two main parts of our earth "our Land and our Sea" can be properly harnessed, but must also be cared for.

So, what's left? How do we get to the "great big beautiful tomorrow?"

Imagination. That was the role it played in the story. You have to think outside the box. And, no question is stupid unless it is one not asked. And, it did this in a whimsical way that reached out to dreamers and doers (and future ones) alike.

But, that leaves the opus. Once we've applied all we learned through these pavilions, once we consider their message, what does our future look like?

And, that's where Horizons comes in. If we can dream it, we can do it. History has shown it, and out future is bright if we choose to make it bright. (oddly, the core message of the Tomorrowland movie, and why I linked it yesterday).

From this point, it's time to transition and celebrate who we are embarking on this grand journey with.

And, that's the message of World Showcase.

Anyhow, I've gone on long enough...but, I think if they embraced this story again, and brought it back to the forefront, it would help "fix" EPCOT.

Sorry so long!
 

rkleinlein

Well-Known Member
@sshindel

You asked me to rant, so here it is.

The original EPCOT Center told a story. And, while it may not have been "official", I'm quite sure that WED/WDI planned it that way at least during the initial blue sky design process.

The difference between it and a Castle Park, and why it was so groundbreaking (and still is unique) is that it had an overarching theme with a grander purpose than just to entertain. It's arguable that IoA, with it's unofficial "Literature" theme is a similar concept, but with a different core.

So, that said...the story was simple (and forgive me for repeating what I'm sure many already noticed for themselves).

Futureworld was about WHERE we are going, and World Showcase is about celebrating who we were going WITH and honoring the cultures of the world on our "Spaceship Earth". Otherwise, why actually staff it with people FROM that country? It's a cultural experience. Yeah, some say it's whitewashed, but then again would you really want to see the dirty bits when honoring the best aspects of unique cultures is the point?

So, overarching story told, Futureworld told a more specific story with each pavilion. I'm going to stick with the original ones, not Wonders of Life, because I think Wonders of Life, while a neat pavilion, didn't really "fit" with the side of Futureworld it was placed (rather, I think it would have been better on the life sciences side, in between the Land and the Sea).

Your journey begins with Spaceship Earth, where you learn how humanity has used communication to advance society and improve the standard of living throughout history. It's emphasised how important communication is for our future (and not just communication technology, but the messages involved, hence why the final message is so important, and ties together Futureworld with World Showcase, which you get to later in the day).

From there, you go to the Communicores, which show off cutting edge CURRENT technology. Communicore East should be focused on (imho) hard sciences, and serve as a gateway to the pavilions behind it, and Communicore West should do the same for Life Sciences. It was never exactly like that, but that's how I think it should be done. However, it was more like that at one point.

Here, I'll show how. These are the "old" attractions for East and West respectively.

East
EPCOT COmputer Central with the backstage computer area show. Astuter Computer Review then later Backstage Magic.
SMRT-1
Great American Census Quiz - What was "tech" about this was HOW the data was collected and presented
Manufactory - Touchscreen american flags and other stuff
Get Set Jet Game - Load Luggage onto Airliners using touch screens.
Compute a Coaster - Design your own roller coaster in then unique CAD/3-D software

Travelport - This was a plug for vacation destinations, and didn't really fit with what I thought the theme should be, but was still neat. Much better than the IBM exhibit with it's touchscreen monoliths that's in West today.

Electronic Forum with the News Choice Theater and the Future Choice Theater

Energy Exchange with a giant model of deep sea drilling, a Blowout Preventer (hehe, after the Gulf, I bet Disney is glad that isn't there anymore), Oil Shale, a Coal Locator game, Energy facility models, all highly detailed, a Video Bicycle (a similar attraction found its way into the Life pavilion later), a Driving Machine focused on fuel efficiency, and a Hundred Watt bulb that you could power yourself using a friction crank, solar cells and various terminals that presented information about Energy creation.

Stargate Restaurant (now Electric Umbrella, I believe). Beverage Base was rolled up into that as well, I believe.

Centorium - The shop...but two stories back then.

West
West served less as a gateway to the ecological sciences of it's side, but it was still presentation based around tech (not a line of Xbox and Playstations, a fire video game, a boring IBM Monolith exhibit and a game about how to save and invest money...even though I love my Piggy Banks, they don't belong in Communicore necessarily!)

West had...

Futurecom with the Information Fountain, Age of Information, a Microchip demonstration, the Intelligent Network was a fiber map of the US (imagine a map of the INTERNET using Akamai technologies!), Teleconferencing.

Expo Robotics had robots that would either sketch a picture of you or would airbrush t-shirts that you could buy.

It also had Outreach that would talk about future plans and concepts, and the Teacher Center which had educational materials. Most of that space is basically closed to the public or is a meet and greet now.

So, all that said...as you pass through the "gateway" that was Communicore to EPCOT East or West, you were taken into a smaller story.

East was about hard sciences. Energy production was how we have, do and would power our SSE in the future.

I'll skip over Horizons for a moment...because it should be the LAST ride you do in Futureworld, but I'll get into that in a few lines.

World of Motion was about how, like we learned the impact and importance of communication in SSE, Transit is equally as important.

Now, considering the old rides used to take about 30 - 45 minutes AFTER waits, it was time to munch. So, we come to Odyssey. Nothing special here, but it could be revived to be something special.

So, you make your way over to the Life Sciences (for lack of a better term) side.

The Sea introduces you to the wonders of 3/4 of our earth, and how, like space, it's just as much a new frontier for us to expand, responsibly, into and harness for the betterment of humanity and our SSE (seeing a trend here?)

The Land does the same with the remaining 1/4 of our earth, and it's rather sad the ride has been cut down over the years. The reason why, as many put it, it looks like a food court shopping center is because it's supposed to be (imho) a celebration of ecological farming techniques and environmentally responsible, yet healthy, foods. I think it should go back to that (a celebration of food). Sourin' is neat, but doesn't fit with the current movie. And the Lion King movie is a joke. Entertaining, but it's also darkly amusing that it's about the ecological destruction caused by a destination amusement park / resort complex.

They also could add more exhibits showing the ecological initiatives of WDW, it would do well to take up the walls upstairs which are bland...

But, back to the "story".

So, so far we've explored all aspects of our SSE. We've seen how communication is what separates man from beast (I use that loosely), we've seen how we are able to harness energy and transit to improve our world. We've been informed how important taking care of the two main parts of our earth "our Land and our Sea" can be properly harnessed, but must also be cared for.

So, what's left? How do we get to the "great big beautiful tomorrow?"

Imagination. That was the role it played in the story. You have to think outside the box. And, no question is stupid unless it is one not asked. And, it did this in a whimsical way that reached out to dreamers and doers (and future ones) alike.

But, that leaves the opus. Once we've applied all we learned through these pavilions, once we consider their message, what does our future look like?

And, that's where Horizons comes in. If we can dream it, we can do it. History has shown it, and out future is bright if we choose to make it bright. (oddly, the core message of the Tomorrowland movie, and why I linked it yesterday).

From this point, it's time to transition and celebrate who we are embarking on this grand journey with.

And, that's the message of World Showcase.

Anyhow, I've gone on long enough...but, I think if they embraced this story again, and brought it back to the forefront, it would help "fix" EPCOT.

Sorry so long!


Once again spot on, and once again the ideas of those writing in this forum are better than than those of the people currently running Disney World. To the extent that anybody running the place thinks Epcot needs fixing, it's clear that the decision has been made to improve it NOT by embracing the visionary story and unique theme of Epcot, but by inserting cartoon characters wherever possible in a misguided attempt at quick fixes that appeal to kids (and parents willing to shell out money to please their kids).

For example: Maelstrom may not have been the best ride in the world, but it was a good one (my 9 year old daughter's favorite--not just in Epcot but in all four parks), that fit into the theme of World Showcase by telling the story of Norway in an entertaining way. Of all the attractions in Epcot that needed revamping, Maelstrom was nowhere near the top of the list. Now a park that is already short on good attractions has one less while they turn into yet another cartoon princess attraction. (And I know I should not pass judgment on an attraction that nobody has even seen yet, but the fact that those annoying Frozen songs are sure to be broadcast throughout the ride make me already hate it.) And it dumbs down the whole Norway pavilion.

And I will not be surprised if the cartoonification of Epcot continues by bringing Ratatouille to France or Mulan to China. Look for the same thing to happen at Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom. Oh yeah, it's already happening.

Can't they think of any new attractions that are not based on already existing cartoon characters ? I have nothing against Disney cartoon characters, but for a long time the cartoon characters were pretty much limited, appropriately, to Fantasyland. Most of the other attractions (Jungle Cruise, Space Mountain, Haunted Mansion, Pirates, etc.) were original ideas. Everything about Epcot used to be original. Not so anymore. Bring on the Disney Prince$$e$.
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Original Poster
@sshindel

You asked me to rant, so here it is.

The original EPCOT Center told a story. And, while it may not have been "official", I'm quite sure that WED/WDI planned it that way at least during the initial blue sky design process.

The difference between it and a Castle Park, and why it was so groundbreaking (and still is unique) is that it had an overarching theme with a grander purpose than just to entertain. It's arguable that IoA, with it's unofficial "Literature" theme is a similar concept, but with a different core.

So, that said...the story was simple (and forgive me for repeating what I'm sure many already noticed for themselves).

Futureworld was about WHERE we are going, and World Showcase is about celebrating who we were going WITH and honoring the cultures of the world on our "Spaceship Earth".
I like this simple explanation of what it took me massive paragraphs to state. That was it. Future World was about inspiring US to dream and build towards the future. World Showcase was showing that we are all one, on this planet together, and we all were going to be making our world together.
I've read that early plans had the park effectively reversed. Starting in World Showcase, you navigated the world as it is today, then through a central feeder point (which I believe went from being a "world" focused pavilion to the US pavilion) it introduced you into Future World. The story is the same, but it drives you forward, here is today, here is who we are, here is where we are all going.
I like that story, I think I understand though why it was changed. As is currently shown, people can spend full days in WS now and ignore Future World. Since Future World was really the main point of the park, giving anyone a reason to somehow not go into Future World was probably a bad idea.


Otherwise, why actually staff it with people FROM that country? It's a cultural experience. Yeah, some say it's whitewashed, but then again would you really want to see the dirty bits when honoring the best aspects of unique cultures is the point?
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the dirty bits, but I'm one of those travelers who would rather see how real people live than a fairy tale version of it. I spent my entire trip to Paraguay recently just staring out the window, drinking up every last bit of the country, city, and people that I could.
BUT
I totally get why when making a theme park meant to show everyone living together, especially one themed to a perfect future, you'd want to go with the cleaned up version.

I've always wished we could get a Brazil pavilion, with forced perspective theme work showing the favelas in Rio going up the hill into the distance.
favela.jpg


I do however get why it probably would never get done, as showing what amounts to where the less fortunate live is just not going to fly in WDW. I mean, even in Disney folklore, a "street rat" that was Aladdin had a wonderful clean little penthouse with a perfect view.

So, overarching story told, Futureworld told a more specific story with each pavilion. I'm going to stick with the original ones, not Wonders of Life, because I think Wonders of Life, while a neat pavilion, didn't really "fit" with the side of Futureworld it was placed (rather, I think it would have been better on the life sciences side, in between the Land and the Sea).
I'd like to explore your thoughts on Wonders of Life further in a follow-up post. I've mentioned before that I never had a big emotional tie to the pavilion, at this point it's been closed more than it was ever open, so I nearly forget it exists. I think that the pavilion was a good idea, and important, but I'm interested to see if you feel it was the concept, or the execution, that made it not fit in.

Your journey begins with Spaceship Earth, where you learn how humanity has used communication to advance society and improve the standard of living throughout history. It's emphasised how important communication is for our future (and not just communication technology, but the messages involved, hence why the final message is so important, and ties together Futureworld with World Showcase, which you get to later in the day).
Yes. SSE was the intro to the entire concept of Epcot. Nearly everything you need to know was set up here. History, leading us ever forward, a global view of a concept, showing how the entire world has contributed to this concept, a high-point, Tomorrow's Child speaking of building a future together, and then Earth Station showing how communications were going to help us all work together. It set the stage perfectly for everything else that was to come.

From there, you go to the Communicores, which show off cutting edge CURRENT technology. Communicore East should be focused on (imho) hard sciences, and serve as a gateway to the pavilions behind it, and Communicore West should do the same for Life Sciences. It was never exactly like that, but that's how I think it should be done. However, it was more like that at one point.

Here, I'll show how. These are the "old" attractions for East and West respectively.

East
EPCOT COmputer Central with the backstage computer area show. Astuter Computer Review then later Backstage Magic.
SMRT-1
Great American Census Quiz - What was "tech" about this was HOW the data was collected and presented
Manufactory - Touchscreen american flags and other stuff
Get Set Jet Game - Load Luggage onto Airliners using touch screens.
Compute a Coaster - Design your own roller coaster in then unique CAD/3-D software

Travelport - This was a plug for vacation destinations, and didn't really fit with what I thought the theme should be, but was still neat. Much better than the IBM exhibit with it's touchscreen monoliths that's in West today.

Electronic Forum with the News Choice Theater and the Future Choice Theater

Energy Exchange with a giant model of deep sea drilling, a Blowout Preventer (hehe, after the Gulf, I bet Disney is glad that isn't there anymore), Oil Shale, a Coal Locator game, Energy facility models, all highly detailed, a Video Bicycle (a similar attraction found its way into the Life pavilion later), a Driving Machine focused on fuel efficiency, and a Hundred Watt bulb that you could power yourself using a friction crank, solar cells and various terminals that presented information about Energy creation.

Stargate Restaurant (now Electric Umbrella, I believe). Beverage Base was rolled up into that as well, I believe.

Centorium - The shop...but two stories back then.

West
West served less as a gateway to the ecological sciences of it's side, but it was still presentation based around tech (not a line of Xbox and Playstations, a fire video game, a boring IBM Monolith exhibit and a game about how to save and invest money...even though I love my Piggy Banks, they don't belong in Communicore necessarily!)

West had...

Futurecom with the Information Fountain, Age of Information, a Microchip demonstration, the Intelligent Network was a fiber map of the US (imagine a map of the INTERNET using Akamai technologies!), Teleconferencing.

Expo Robotics had robots that would either sketch a picture of you or would airbrush t-shirts that you could buy.

It also had Outreach that would talk about future plans and concepts, and the Teacher Center which had educational materials. Most of that space is basically closed to the public or is a meet and greet now.

So, all that said...as you pass through the "gateway" that was Communicore to EPCOT East or West, you were taken into a smaller story.
I'm glad you went into more detail on Communicore than I did. I just didn't have all of the different exhibits in my memory, and as stated in the intro, didn't really go out and dig into a bunch of research to make a point. Communicore did IMO what good science museums do today. It's why I'd like to slightly shift it's focus.

East was about hard sciences. Energy production was how we have, do and would power our SSE in the future.

I'll skip over Horizons for a moment...because it should be the LAST ride you do in Futureworld, but I'll get into that in a few lines.

World of Motion was about how, like we learned the impact and importance of communication in SSE, Transit is equally as important.

Now, considering the old rides used to take about 30 - 45 minutes AFTER waits, it was time to munch. So, we come to Odyssey. Nothing special here, but it could be revived to be something special.
Agree with all of this

So, you make your way over to the Life Sciences (for lack of a better term) side.

The Sea introduces you to the wonders of 3/4 of our earth, and how, like space, it's just as much a new frontier for us to expand, responsibly, into and harness for the betterment of humanity and our SSE (seeing a trend here?)
Yes. 70-75% of our planet is water, and we know next to nothing about it. We need water for every current form of life that we are aware of. It's how we are currently scouring the universe for signs of life. We find new life in unbelievable places everywhere on Earth we find water. The oceans are a huge deal, and showing some watered down story of a (admittedly great) movie is not how we need to be discussing them in Epcot.

The Land does the same with the remaining 1/4 of our earth, and it's rather sad the ride has been cut down over the years. The reason why, as many put it, it looks like a food court shopping center is because it's supposed to be (imho) a celebration of ecological farming techniques and environmentally responsible, yet healthy, foods. I think it should go back to that (a celebration of food). Sourin' is neat, but doesn't fit with the current movie. And the Lion King movie is a joke. Entertaining, but it's also darkly amusing that it's about the ecological destruction caused by a destination amusement park / resort complex.

They also could add more exhibits showing the ecological initiatives of WDW, it would do well to take up the walls upstairs which are bland...
I have so much love for The Land. I agree, it's really targeted to food production in my mind. Farmers Market was more successful in staying with the theme than Sunshine Seasons was. I'd like to see it brought back, slightly modified to look like a farmers market. I mean, every suburb in America now has a farmers market going on weekends, it's not a foreign concept, but it helps underline the story of the pavilion.
Garden Grill again IMO should be loud and proud, in your face, obnoxious hipster style Local, Sustainable, Farm To Table.
Soarin doesn't fit. It needs to move, and something else fitting theme needs to go back into that theater.

But, back to the "story".

So, so far we've explored all aspects of our SSE. We've seen how communication is what separates man from beast (I use that loosely), we've seen how we are able to harness energy and transit to improve our world. We've been informed how important taking care of the two main parts of our earth "our Land and our Sea" can be properly harnessed, but must also be cared for.

So, what's left? How do we get to the "great big beautiful tomorrow?"

Imagination. That was the role it played in the story. You have to think outside the box. And, no question is stupid unless it is one not asked. And, it did this in a whimsical way that reached out to dreamers and doers (and future ones) alike.
If I got to play Roller Coaster Tycoon with Epcot, I'd rearrange it so that Future World was like a wheel, with the center being the pyramids of Imagination with it's fountains being the moving water. In fact, I think I'd have it almost like an island, surrounded by interesting and intriguing fountains. The opposite spoke from SSE would have been Horizons, SSE is the setup, Horizons is the home-run.
Going with the buildings as they are now though, I think we can still tell the story we want as long as the pavilions themselves each reflect the central story. It was like this before, it can be again.

But, that leaves the opus. Once we've applied all we learned through these pavilions, once we consider their message, what does our future look like?

And, that's where Horizons comes in. If we can dream it, we can do it. History has shown it, and out future is bright if we choose to make it bright. (oddly, the core message of the Tomorrowland movie, and why I linked it yesterday).

From this point, it's time to transition and celebrate who we are embarking on this grand journey with.

And, that's the message of World Showcase.

Anyhow, I've gone on long enough...but, I think if they embraced this story again, and brought it back to the forefront, it would help "fix" EPCOT.

Sorry so long!
Seriously, look who you are talking to. Sorry so long? I just wrote pages upon pages about this topic. No apologies needed!
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Original Poster
Once again spot on, and once again the ideas of those writing in this forum are better than than those of the people currently running Disney World. To the extent that anybody running the place thinks Epcot needs fixing, it's clear that the decision has been made to improve it NOT by embracing the visionary story and unique theme of Epcot, but by inserting cartoon characters wherever possible in a misguided attempt at quick fixes that appeal to kids (and parents willing to shell out money to please their kids).

For example: Maelstrom may not have been the best ride in the world, but it was a good one (my 9 year old daughter's favorite--not just in Epcot but in all four parks), that fit into the theme of World Showcase by telling the story of Norway in an entertaining way. Of all the attractions in Epcot that needed revamping, Maelstrom was nowhere near the top of the list. Now a park that is already short on good attractions has one less while they turn into yet another cartoon princess attraction. (And I know I should not pass judgment on an attraction that nobody has even seen yet, but the fact that those annoying Frozen songs are sure to be broadcast throughout the ride make me already hate it.) And it dumbs down the whole Norway pavilion.

And I will not be surprised if the cartoonification of Epcot continues by bringing Ratatouille to France or Mulan to China. Look for the same thing to happen at Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom. Oh yeah, it's already happening.

Can't they think of any new attractions that are not based on already existing cartoon characters ? I have nothing against Disney cartoon characters, but for a long time the cartoon characters were pretty much limited, appropriately, to Fantasyland. Most of the other attractions (Jungle Cruise, Space Mountain, Haunted Mansion, Pirates, etc.) were original ideas. Everything about Epcot used to be original. Not so anymore. Bring on the Disney Prince$$e$.
I agree with this, and wish that they wouldn't be integrating characters into every pavilion. I don't think that it couldn't be done correctly though. There are ways to use current popular characters to still tell a story that needs telling. The problem here is that they seemingly went the lazy way out. Instead of using Nemo to teach about the oceans, they just threw in a book-report of the movie. Instead of using Frozen to teach about the rich culture of Norway, they are going to likely just throw in another book-report.
I would be ok if they added characters to every pavilion in Epcot, as long as they did it in a thoughtful way that still told the story that Epcot once told. If we need Nemo to help introduce kids to ocean science, fine (I didn't need it as a kid, the wonder of going to a seabase was awesome enough). If Wonders of Life needs to get an Inside Out overlay to tell the story of life sciences in a way that is engaging for youngers but not dumbed down, still teaching and creating wonder, yet using a character as an emotional hook, fine.
My issue isn't really the characters, it's the method in which they were integrated. Wait, really not integrated and that is the problem. They were just thrown in with no thought at all.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
I like this simple explanation of what it took me massive paragraphs to state. That was it. Future World was about inspiring US to dream and build towards the future. World Showcase was showing that we are all one, on this planet together, and we all were going to be making our world together.
I've read that early plans had the park effectively reversed. Starting in World Showcase, you navigated the world as it is today, then through a central feeder point (which I believe went from being a "world" focused pavilion to the US pavilion) it introduced you into Future World. The story is the same, but it drives you forward, here is today, here is who we are, here is where we are all going.
I like that story, I think I understand though why it was changed. As is currently shown, people can spend full days in WS now and ignore Future World. Since Future World was really the main point of the park, giving anyone a reason to somehow not go into Future World was probably a bad idea.



Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the dirty bits, but I'm one of those travelers who would rather see how real people live than a fairy tale version of it. I spent my entire trip to Paraguay recently just staring out the window, drinking up every last bit of the country, city, and people that I could.
BUT
I totally get why when making a theme park meant to show everyone living together, especially one themed to a perfect future, you'd want to go with the cleaned up version.

I've always wished we could get a Brazil pavilion, with forced perspective theme work showing the favelas in Rio going up the hill into the distance.
favela.jpg


I do however get why it probably would never get done, as showing what amounts to where the less fortunate live is just not going to fly in WDW. I mean, even in Disney folklore, a "street rat" that was Aladdin had a wonderful clean little penthouse with a perfect view.


I'd like to explore your thoughts on Wonders of Life further in a follow-up post. I've mentioned before that I never had a big emotional tie to the pavilion, at this point it's been closed more than it was ever open, so I nearly forget it exists. I think that the pavilion was a good idea, and important, but I'm interested to see if you feel it was the concept, or the execution, that made it not fit in.


Yes. SSE was the intro to the entire concept of Epcot. Nearly everything you need to know was set up here. History, leading us ever forward, a global view of a concept, showing how the entire world has contributed to this concept, a high-point, Tomorrow's Child speaking of building a future together, and then Earth Station showing how communications were going to help us all work together. It set the stage perfectly for everything else that was to come.


I'm glad you went into more detail on Communicore than I did. I just didn't have all of the different exhibits in my memory, and as stated in the intro, didn't really go out and dig into a bunch of research to make a point. Communicore did IMO what good science museums do today. It's why I'd like to slightly shift it's focus.


Agree with all of this


Yes. 70-75% of our planet is water, and we know next to nothing about it. We need water for every current form of life that we are aware of. It's how we are currently scouring the universe for signs of life. We find new life in unbelievable places everywhere on Earth we find water. The oceans are a huge deal, and showing some watered down story of a (admittedly great) movie is not how we need to be discussing them in Epcot.


I have so much love for The Land. I agree, it's really targeted to food production in my mind. Farmers Market was more successful in staying with the theme than Sunshine Seasons was. I'd like to see it brought back, slightly modified to look like a farmers market. I mean, every suburb in America now has a farmers market going on weekends, it's not a foreign concept, but it helps underline the story of the pavilion.
Garden Grill again IMO should be loud and proud, in your face, obnoxious hipster style Local, Sustainable, Farm To Table.
Soarin doesn't fit. It needs to move, and something else fitting theme needs to go back into that theater.


If I got to play Roller Coaster Tycoon with Epcot, I'd rearrange it so that Future World was like a wheel, with the center being the pyramids of Imagination with it's fountains being the moving water. In fact, I think I'd have it almost like an island, surrounded by interesting and intriguing fountains. The opposite spoke from SSE would have been Horizons, SSE is the setup, Horizons is the home-run.
Going with the buildings as they are now though, I think we can still tell the story we want as long as the pavilions themselves each reflect the central story. It was like this before, it can be again.


Seriously, look who you are talking to. Sorry so long? I just wrote pages upon pages about this topic. No apologies needed!
THIS was EPCOT.

'
And the fact that it's rather kitch music from the early 80s...the message is VERY clear and still resonates.

I watch this from time to time, and it scares me...because he's right.



Not because sputnik was a "missile", but because...

My daughter cares more about youtube and twitter and facebook even at 10 than she does the technologies that make it work, and where we can go, and what those technologies can do.

These things are the RESULTS of technology, they are NOT technology. They are entertainment at best.

That is a VERY important message. And one that EPCOT communicated to me years ago, even with their "dumbed down" existance...

As I said...

I touched that Floridian Pass...

And ZAP!

 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
The scene that isn't mentioned much from the movie (sorry spoilers) was when she asks her teachers over and over again "so what are we going to do?"

That is the BEST question that can be asked, but...unfortunately, it is shat upon. The movie is NOT wrong.
I really liked the movie especially the message at the end.

The message is how we seem to embrace the idea of the world turning into a dystopia. I mean how many people do you know that think a zombie apocalypse would be awesome?
 

rkleinlein

Well-Known Member
I agree with this, and wish that they wouldn't be integrating characters into every pavilion. I don't think that it couldn't be done correctly though. There are ways to use current popular characters to still tell a story that needs telling. The problem here is that they seemingly went the lazy way out. Instead of using Nemo to teach about the oceans, they just threw in a book-report of the movie. Instead of using Frozen to teach about the rich culture of Norway, they are going to likely just throw in another book-report.
I would be ok if they added characters to every pavilion in Epcot, as long as they did it in a thoughtful way that still told the story that Epcot once told. If we need Nemo to help introduce kids to ocean science, fine (I didn't need it as a kid, the wonder of going to a seabase was awesome enough). If Wonders of Life needs to get an Inside Out overlay to tell the story of life sciences in a way that is engaging for youngers but not dumbed down, still teaching and creating wonder, yet using a character as an emotional hook, fine.
My issue isn't really the characters, it's the method in which they were integrated. Wait, really not integrated and that is the problem. They were just thrown in with no thought at all.

Yes. Once again, you are right. There would be nothing wrong with using cartoon characters to introduce kids to the wonder of the Seas, the richness of Norway, etc. But they haven't done it yet and I'm not going to hold my breath about Frozen being anything about Norway. I predict it's going to be about nothing more than the cartoon characters, the songs, and the exit through the gift shop selling princess costumes and cds.

Which, even then, would not be awful if Frozen is a true E-ticket attraction. Even it would not be true to the vision of Epcot, I can forgive the loss of Maelstrom if they give us a fantastic attraction. But I don't even feel like we can count on that anymore.

What I find most maddening is not that so many of the new attractions fail to live up to the vision of Epcot, are out of place thematically, or are lazy book reports of the movie--although that IS maddening--what I find MOST maddening is that they are poor attractions, period. The Seas with Nemo and Friends, even if it were in Fantasyland is a bad Finding Nemo attraction. Imagination is a bad attraction. I think Mission Space, as nothing more than a Tomorrowland ride, is ok, but Star Tours is better. Test Track is an embarrassment. (And it's not just Epcot. So many of the most recent attractions are blah: Little Mermaid, Dinosaur, and even Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. None are in the same league as Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Peter Pan, Splash Mountain, etc.)

Many may disagree, but in my opinion the only E-ticket attraction in all of Epcot is Soarin. And the fact that it's completely out of place in Epcot (at least with the current film) and was merely copied from California Adventure says something about the lack of imagination and vision in the current team of Disney imagineers and executives.
 

danheaton

Well-Known Member
The scene that isn't mentioned much from the movie (sorry spoilers) was when she asks her teachers over and over again "so what are we going to do?"

That is the BEST question that can be asked, but...unfortunately, it is shat upon. The movie is NOT wrong.

Loved that scene. It said a lot about the curiosity for making things better that's missing from EPCOT and isn't driving the Disney company. It's sad that that scene comes in a Disney movie too. It's all right there if they look at it!

Of course, the mediocre financial results for Tomorrowland might cause some executives to believe that futurism has no point. Putting in characters is easier, but it makes EPCOT less unique. It really wouldn't take that much to get things back on track. I'm not talking about huge dollars and tons of new attractions. Just updating Energy and Imagination into something modern and original would make a serious difference.
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Original Poster
Yes. Once again, you are right. There would be nothing wrong with using cartoon characters to introduce kids to the wonder of the Seas, the richness of Norway, etc. But they haven't done it yet and I'm not going to hold my breath about Frozen being anything about Norway. I predict it's going to be about nothing more than the cartoon characters, the songs, and the exit through the gift shop selling princess costumes and cds.

Which, even then, would not be awful if Frozen is a true E-ticket attraction. Even it would not be true to the vision of Epcot, I can forgive the loss of Maelstrom if they give us a fantastic attraction. But I don't even feel like we can count on that anymore.

What I find most maddening is not that so many of the new attractions fail to live up to the vision of Epcot, are out of place thematically, or are lazy book reports of the movie--although that IS maddening--what I find MOST maddening is that they are poor attractions, period. The Seas with Nemo and Friends, even if it were in Fantasyland is a bad Finding Nemo attraction. Imagination is a bad attraction. I think Mission Space, as nothing more than a Tomorrowland ride, is ok, but Star Tours is better. Test Track is an embarrassment. (And it's not just Epcot. So many of the most recent attractions are blah: Little Mermaid, Dinosaur, and even Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. None are in the same league as Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Peter Pan, Splash Mountain, etc.)

Many may disagree, but in my opinion the only E-ticket attraction in all of Epcot is Soarin. And the fact that it's completely out of place in Epcot (at least with the current film) and was merely copied from California Adventure says something about the lack of imagination and vision in the current team of Disney imagineers and executives.
Exactly on all points. It seems like they replaced attractions that were well thought out, well integrated with the overall park, and fantastically executed with attractions that were thrown together on a napkin after one too many rounds at Raglan Road. They were likely handicapped by lack of funding and/or corporate mandate, but that isn't an excuse, it's an indictment of upper management.
That said, I think that there are still people inside WDI / Disney that understand and care about what Epcot is meant to be. I think that leaving one noisy chainsaw act aside, the recent entertainment changes in WS seem to have thought into showing some more authentic entertainment. I just think that the people that have an idea with what it should be are being given the smallest of shoestring budgets in which to do it, and likely any large plans they have are being turned down.
I still have hope. I still see that there are major changes that have been done in MK, and DAK is going through a similar transformation. DHS should be as well, though we're still waiting to see what that entails. That leaves Epcot as the last park to get a large set of work. 2022 is the 40th anniversary of the park, so maybe we'll see movement to start visiting the park again once things at DAK start to wrap up and DHS is in mid-construction.
With the Frozen-Maelstrom change, I'm not encouraged with what I see for now. Adding a 3rd theater to Soarin' is masking a problem. They could have easily handled Soarin's capacity problems by making another attraction in Epcot one that would pull people out of the Soarin' line and into it, spreading out the crowd. Right now, Soarin is most people's only "must-do". Add another one and you've helped Soarin's capacity issues.
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Original Poster
Of course, the mediocre financial results for Tomorrowland might cause some executives to believe that futurism has no point. Putting in characters is easier, but it makes EPCOT less unique. It really wouldn't take that much to get things back on track. I'm not talking about huge dollars and tons of new attractions. Just updating Energy and Imagination into something modern and original would make a serious difference.
Just think if Epcot had spent the last 20 years actively nurturing interest in dreaming about the future. The results of that movie might have been slightly different.
 

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