Splash Mtn Restraints

Tom

Beta Return
Disney's crowd flow/management modeling is renowned. They have an entire department of statisticians. (I have seen the job listings.) From my very basic management science class, there are formulas that are used to calculate service times. You just need to know/estimate the arrival time, the number of service points available, and the amount of time taken to serve a "customer." From this, I am pretty sure they could easily recalibrate the ride system or retrain employees to accommodate the possibly longer service time. Someone posted a comment from a CM about "net" downtime. I suspect that the addition of lap bars will greatly increase the total operating time during the day. Try to think of the last time you rode without trouble downstream. Imagine if say half of these daily "troubles" were eliminated by the lap bars.

Precisely. I'm not concerned with increased wait times because of this.

I'm positive that they've run a number of mock "load/unload" timing scenarios using actual "riders" and CMs - perhaps in a warehouse, or out behind Splash. They know how long it takes to load/unload guests using these new lap bars (not to mention the data they have from the Tokyo version).

Splash has several hold points built into the ride already. Most are there to keep safe distances between logs on the lifts and hills, but some are there for spacing out the logs. They could reduce each of them by a fraction of a second and gain a few second to go toward the inevitable delay.

OR, better yet, they could use the Test Track system where they dispatch the logs from load to the hold point just down stream, where a CM can stand next to another button. They check the lap bars, hit the button, and the logs are queued to enter the ride. It works seamlessly at Test Track and could easily work at Splash.
 

Timekeeper

Well-Known Member
There are already rides in Disney World which require that CMs check that lap bars are in place: Big Thunder Mountain Rail Road, Rock 'N Roller Coaster, and others. They don't seem to hold up the ride time very much, if any.

You're right, but with your examples, such restraints have always been in place, and so any time-efficiency issues were already "built into" the attraction. Thus, we have nothing to compare it to.

The problem with Splash, and why the notion of restraints meets so much skepticism here, is because we do have something to compare the alternative to.

One reason for why many of us are not attracted to the idea of restraints (when it seems perfectly reasonable to support additional safety measures) is that - for those of us who have ridden Splash countless times - we are familiar how much CMs already "rush" guests into the boats and then dispatch them. There is always a long line of boats behind the boats being loaded, and it always fees as though time is off the essence. I have ridden many times in which the boat began moving forward (dispatched) within two seconds of me actually being seated in the boat. I'm sure many of you share the same experience. This this feeling of being "rushed" is not as obvious on other attractions with safety restraints in which the ride vehicles remain in the loading area longer, such as Big Thunder or Tower of Terror.

Also, we don't like the idea of hard restraints as a space issue. The seats in the boats (logs) are already quite cramped, even for the average size guest. And it seems like space for personal belongings was never a seriously contemplated issue. (See mesh bags for small purses and belongings in other attractions such as Dinosaur, Everest, etc.) Hard restraints will provide even less room for guests to sit comfortably... :(

...not to mention the possibility that some guests may no longer be able to ride due to their size - which would have made the ride accessible before the restraints were installed. :(

If restraints are necessary, I would have opted for seat belts. They are much more comfortable and actually provide for a better (more effective) restraint than a lap bar. They would also be less restrictive for larger guests (assuming the belt itself was long enough). If Disney is afraid of guests wiggling out of their seats, a tight seat belt would keep a guest restrained better than a rigid lap bar. :brick:
 

Tigger1988

Well-Known Member
And I'm not privy to safety specifications with respect to guest height requirements, but maybe a seat belt on Splash would lower/eliminate the height requirement seeing as how Tower of Terror does not have a height requirement, although it seems to provide for a much more "aggressive" ride experience. :shrug:

Uh, yes it does.
 

wolf359

Well-Known Member
The biggest difference between the lap bars on other rides and Splash Mountain is that Splash's are not designed (or needed) to protect guests from falling out of the log when it is in motion.

It is a slight distinction, but it might be an important one when it comes to dispatch times. Because Splash Mountain is inherently safe it may mean Cast Members will not have to conduct as thorough a check as is typical on the other lap bar-equipped rides. Just as long as the bar is down, it should do the job it is intended; make it less likely a guest will be able to exit the log during the ride.
 

THEMEPARKPIONEER

Well-Known Member
I dont thing the lap bars will be much of a time issue, look at hoe fast they load up Thunder Mountain. I hot held up on the ride for a good 10 minuted do to people standing and they let us go again because of it. If they waited another 10 years to put in the lap bars people would probably be climbing all over the place.
 

T-1MILLION

New Member
The biggest difference between the lap bars on other rides and Splash Mountain is that Splash's are not designed (or needed) to protect guests from falling out of the log when it is in motion.

It is a slight distinction, but it might be an important one when it comes to dispatch times. Because Splash Mountain is inherently safe it may mean Cast Members will not have to conduct as thorough a check as is typical on the other lap bar-equipped rides. Just as long as the bar is down, it should do the job it is intended; make it less likely a guest will be able to exit the log during the ride.

This is why I think the lapbars will be a failure if they are indeed conducted like this. (I really don't think they will) Lapbars that loose or pointless in design do not keep the types that leap out of rides in. If that person wants to do it they are already dumb enough to do it, slipping out of a restraint that loose does not take that much more effort to them. (think about the many Haunted Mansion stories)


Also someone said earlier that Big Thunder and other rides have had lapbars and it does not seem to slow them down, but as someone else said we have never had a comparison of them without lapbars and they were always designed to have them. I am sure Disney has amazing impressive teams of the theme park industry let them know a good estimate on the average amount of guests they can cycle, but that does not mean it will not slow it down at all.

Also, splash and thunder are way two different beasts. One has a peridoical unloading and loading of long high capacity trains with breaks inbetween, the other is a constant long line of log boats. There may be cases where the boat in front has been loaded and lapbars are not down yet but the boat behind them had a faster group and their bars are down and set to go, but can't proceed until the boats in front of them have this done. Which can and likely will eventually cause back ups similar to what we already see with this attraction at unload.

Also in the design of other attractions that were designed to have lapbars already in place they are at the height of employees to easily breeze by and check. Thinking about how deep in a channel splash's boats are in, makes a big difference.

I am sure that the net downtime will go down a bit, but that is not why Disney is doing this. It is for the suits and lawsuit ones that have to deal with the people who hurt themselves.
 

love disney

Active Member
Restraints could cause the ride to have less perodical down time for the occasional idiot, but I have a concern about downtime WITH the lapbars...


Are they going to be automated to go down from a button or do they only go down by guests pulling them down when seated? The reason I ask because this can actually cause efficiency issues if there are times where they need to keep guests unloading and unloading and full vehicles are not happening, so the Cast Members may have to manually push down on lapbars time and time again.

Problems with this could cause lots of trouble downsteam because Splash is a very high capacity ride due to the amount of vehicles it is constantly pumping out. If that trouble causes load to back up to unload and then guests are piled up in final scenes and so on.

After riding Splash Mountain with lap bars in Tokyo earlier this month, based on that experience I will say that the addition of lap bars shouldn't make load/unload times longer. In fact I think that the load/unload was actually a bit smoother there compared to what I have experience at MK. Again, as you pointed out they have always had the lap bars, so there is a chance that if the design/system is different at MK it may take longer, and there will probably be some delays as the CM's get used to the new lap bars. In the long run, I think the addition will be a benefit as it should cut down on idiots jumping out of the logs and stopping the ride all together. (And fyi-when I first heard about the addition of lap bars I thought it was a terrible idea, but having seen them in practice at Tokyo I am now okay with it)
 

Timekeeper

Well-Known Member
The biggest difference between the lap bars on other rides and Splash Mountain is that Splash's are not designed (or needed) to protect guests from falling out of the log when it is in motion.

Exactly. We could compile a very long list of attractions on which there are no confining restraints and guests could theoretically jump out and run a muck, including a few other boat-based attractions. But I don't foresee safety restraints be added to Pirates or Small World, and guests could always jump out of any omnimover-based attraction.

Just as long as the bar is down, it should do the job it is intended; make it less likely a guest will be able to exit the log during the ride.

Agreed. And much of this could be driven by legal. There may have been incidents - recent or otherwise - of which we (the general public) are not aware. :shrug: I know we like to think that our finger is on the pulse of everything that happens at WDW, but that's not the case. More important than whether a safety bar could absolutely prevent a person from leaving a ride vehicle is whether Disney took reasonable steps to ensure guest safety. Disney doesn't (and practically, cannot), make it impossible. So maybe Disney was on the fence as to whether Splash had sufficient safety mechanisms and thought that this addition would surely place them in the safe zone.

Next we will be seeing safety restraints in Canada, Japan, the Laugh Floor, and lest we not forget, It's Tough to be A Restrained Bug. :brick:
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
Personally, I don't have a problem with it. Splash Mountain logs always semm to be backed up (and I go in the off-season), so I don't see that problem being exascerbated. The back-up is seemingly a result of running too many logs. Theoretically, the logs, once they ascend the first lift, should technically never stop until they reach the conveyor at load/unload (or right before). Of course, load/unload design, inconsistent weight distribution in a log which affects log speed, etc. make that a virtual impossibility. As such, the restraints are needed to keep people from leaving their log (for whatever reason).
 

WDW FTW

Member
That picture is from DCA's ToT, which has never not had seatbelts.

Ooooooooooh really....

I rode Tower of Terror back when it opened (I hated it then) when it only had one drop and lap bars. That was an awful idea to begin with. The main reason being, if you have a bigger person in the same row as kids, the kids could easily float out from under the lap bars and get seriously hurt. The seat belts are a much better option.

Confirmation :lol:


But on the subject of Splash Mountain it might be inconvenient to some but as long as they don't take away the big drop im good to go.
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
Exactly. We could compile a very long list of attractions on which there are no confining restraints and guests could theoretically jump out and run a muck, including a few other boat-based attractions. But I don't foresee safety restraints be added to Pirates or Small World, and guests could always jump out of any omnimover-based attraction.



Agreed. And much of this could be driven by legal. There may have been incidents - recent or otherwise - of which we (the general public) are not aware. :shrug: I know we like to think that our finger is on the pulse of everything that happens at WDW, but that's not the case. More important than whether a safety bar could absolutely prevent a person from leaving a ride vehicle is whether Disney took reasonable steps to ensure guest safety. Disney doesn't (and practically, cannot), make it impossible. So maybe Disney was on the fence as to whether Splash had sufficient safety mechanisms and thought that this addition would surely place them in the safe zone.
It might play a role. I remember reading, years ago, about how a child got scared on the flume ride at Mall of America, and just before the boat went over the drop, (s)he grabbed the railing and was yanked out the boat, and subsequently slid down the chute. My recollection is the child died from head injuries resulting from the fall. That's unlikely to happen at Splash Mountain, but there are two areas where someone could climb out of the log and not know there is a drop. It's one of the reasons other theme parks place employees near all the drops of their flumes.
 

Timekeeper

Well-Known Member
Thrill Seeker said:
I rode Tower of Terror back when it opened (I hated it then) when it only had one drop and lap bars.

Hmmm, not entirely true. Back in the lap bar days, the back row [5] center-most seat had a seat belt because the lap bars did not extend over and into the isle.

6 6 6 6 [5] 5 5 5
4 4 4 4 __ 3 3 3
2 2 2 2 __ 1 1 1

The irony is that guests often appeared weary that they got "the seat belt seat" and I can remember members of any given group joking or making fun of the person in their group who was assigned that particular seat. :hammer: If you think about it, it does make sense that something that appears to be "out of the ordinary" is viewed as being something negative/undesirable.
 

Mansion Butler

Active Member
There are already rides in Disney World which require that CMs check that lap bars are in place: Big Thunder Mountain Rail Road, Rock 'N Roller Coaster, and others. They don't seem to hold up the ride time very much, if any.
Oh yes they do. Doesn't mean it's not worth it, but if CMs didn't have to check the restraints on those rides every dispatch, all those incremental seconds added from the time saved would be massive for the OHRC.

Dispatch time is treated in terms of seconds, so every second added is a significant issue. Let's take something like Small World with a preferred dispatch time of 30 seconds (I use IASW because I know it). So you're launching 240 boats an hour, meaning up to 5,760 people an hour (which is not actually their OHRC, but this is just an example, so go with it). If you have to check lap bars, that's about 2 seconds a row for 12 rows. That 24 more seconds added to each dispatch. You have almost halved the amount of people who can be dispatched!

From discussing Splash's procedures with my DGF (who worked there) and just knowing how it works, it's pretty similar to Small World's dispatch (any Splash CMs can add to this). If the ride needs restraints, it needs restraints, but CMs checking restraints absolutely adds time to dispatch. Exponentially.

That said, I'm guessing for Splash there would be one CM for each boat checking, so that's just eight rows checked. That's just ~15 extra seconds. And they may just do it like Space Mountain with the "pull up on your lap bar please" quick check, that would only add a handful of seconds. Still, if you're sending 180 boats an hour (made up number), by adding five seconds for each dispatch, you've slowed it down to under 170 boats an hour. ~250 fewer people riding an hour is not a trivial sum.

tl;dr: Restraint checks absolutely slow things down. Not much on individual dispatches, but it adds up quickly.

And I'll add, as others have, that the time added by adding restraints could well be made up by the time saved with fewer out-of-boat downtimes. Disney does their homework. I'm just pointing out that restraints absolutely slow down dispatches in a significant way.

The biggest difference between the lap bars on other rides and Splash Mountain is that Splash's are not designed (or needed) to protect guests from falling out of the log when it is in motion.

It is a slight distinction, but it might be an important one when it comes to dispatch times. Because Splash Mountain is inherently safe it may mean Cast Members will not have to conduct as thorough a check as is typical on the other lap bar-equipped rides. Just as long as the bar is down, it should do the job it is intended; make it less likely a guest will be able to exit the log during the ride.
That's a good point. Completely different ride system, but at the Mansion they don't physically check every lap bar. In fact, I believe the most recent Operating Guide says specifically NOT to (because it can make guests uncomfortable, but don't quote me).

Again, different ride system, but it's there for the same reason: to keep people from jumping out. It's still going to add time, but it might be less significant if all that matters is that the lap bars are down before they send it.

This is why I think the lapbars will be a failure if they are indeed conducted like this. (I really don't think they will) Lapbars that loose or pointless in design do not keep the types that leap out of rides in. If that person wants to do it they are already dumb enough to do it, slipping out of a restraint that loose does not take that much more effort to them. (think about the many Haunted Mansion stories)
Intrusions in the Haunted Mansion are extremely rare. There are Cast Members that work there regularly for months without having to run or assist with a single intrusion (and the current Mansion is just about impossible to get out of without being noticed).

The lap bars don't make it impossible, obviously, but they do the job.

WALL OF TEXT!
 

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