News Splash Mountain retheme to Princess and the Frog - Tiana's Bayou Adventure

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UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
The idea that they need to somehow explain why it's a mountain is silly. It's a bit like the elaborate backstories they've tried to create for places like the Main Street Confectionary that actually end up making things worse.

People can suspend disbelief for that as long as the attraction itself is well done; the Magic Kingdom has always been more about a general feel than absolute physical and historical accuracy.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
The idea that they need to somehow explain why it's a mountain is silly. It's a bit like the elaborate backstories they've tried to create for places like the Main Street Confectionary that actually end up making things worse.

People can suspend disbelief for that as long as the attraction itself is well done.

This is the problem with story in modern Imagineering. There is the hyper realism of Animal Kingdom that people like Joe Rhode's team got. That EPCOT got.

Then there are assignments of the American Mythology that the Magic Kingdom's basis revolves around. Romanticized. it is often just place setting. The backstory does not need to be linear for the guest.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
What I think the Salt Mine research shows is that Disney on a high level of operation is not doing this out of controversy, it is a byproduct they can live with to make more money as the Tiana push machine is in full effect next year with its shows being produced.
I don’t follow this argument. Are you suggesting that the Imagineers themselves are being insincere, or that they were pushed into visiting the salt mine by the Disney higher-ups?
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I don’t follow this argument. Are you suggesting that the Imagineers themselves are being insincere, or that they were pushed into visiting the salt mine by the Disney higher-ups?

I don't think any group is a monolith, but nothing shows that the top brass approved this project to get rid of the controversy as a primary goal. It is a byproduct. Tiana has been in the works as the next big push for a bit. They would not have waited for the Tiana Push that is coming companywide in 2022. They could have done it for her when the film came out over a decade ago, or another attraction in its place.

The Imagineers were given the greenlight because of synergy, not controversy. No fault of theirs, and they are doing their job(s)

The company as a whole is easy to see that they are sincere. There is plenty of evidence for that.
 

Kirby86

Well-Known Member
The idea that they need to somehow explain why it's a mountain is silly. It's a bit like the elaborate backstories they've tried to create for places like the Main Street Confectionary that actually end up making things worse.

People can suspend disbelief for that as long as the attraction itself is well done; the Magic Kingdom has always been more about a general feel than absolute physical and historical accuracy.
Agreed if the ride is good people will still ride it no questions asked. If the ride is sub par people will still ride it since hey were at Disney and it's a water ride. At the end of the day it's still going to be a ride with a Disney princess going on an adventure with singing animals.
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
That one Imagineer is the lead on this project though so her words have some weight to them. Again I have to ask though if the ride won't have Salt Mines (which it may not) why bother researching them? It's a waste of money to fly out your team there. Also as someone who doesn't want the retheme even I think trying to tie the 1920s to slavery is grasping at straws.
Maybe they like Tabasco and to visit the Jungle Gardens? Avery Island is not just a salt mine. It has oil production too so maybe the Malstrom oil rig can make a comeback?
 

Disney Glimpses

Well-Known Member
I guess this fundamentally comes down to where is the line drawn? Especially since, once this is done, there will be other new targets.

Also, I’m not sure how you square the notion that using problematic source material (SOTS) is not okay, but drawing inspiration from actual slave labor locales is.
I think the difference is really going to be in the source material. I don't think they will scrutinize the history of the locations selected. Frankly, if they did, Liberty Square (among other lands, attractions, locations) would no longer exist. Almost anything older than 50 years has a problematic history.
 

Bocabear

Well-Known Member
I guess this fundamentally comes down to where is the line drawn? Especially since, once this is done, there will be other new targets.

Also, I’m not sure how you square the notion that using problematic source material (SOTS) is not okay, but drawing inspiration from actual slave labor locales is.
Well if we are to apply that logic, then almost all of the world cannot be used as a location as one time or another, a group of people enslaved another group. Throughout history this has happened...not just the last few hundred years.
You draw the line at the intent of the story...not stretching as hard as you can to find something unrelated to the tale to shut it down.
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
SOTS was set during Reconstruction in an area near Georgia. It’s sin, according to many, is how it minimized and romanticized this era, largely by glossing over the treatment of former slaves (such as sharecroppers) with cute song and dance numbers.

The replacement is set in Jim Crow era Louisiana, and the Imagineers seem to be drawing inspiration from a saltine which utilized slave and sharecropper labor, so let’s hope it doesn’t gloss over the tragedies and horrors of those who lived those experiences with song and dance numbers.
SotS is not a documentary.
Neither is PatF.
Why can't we believe that there were some happy people in these times despite the adversity?
Because there were - just as there are now.
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
Why can't we believe that there were some happy people in these times despite the adversity?
Because of THIS:

"It will take a long time for The Walt Disney Company to fully dig themselves out of this hole of their own making, but changing Splash Mountain into an attraction that celebrates their only Black princess is at least a step in the right direction."

 

Tha Realest

Well-Known Member
Well if we are to apply that logic, then almost all of the world cannot be used as a location as one time or another, a group of people enslaved another group. Throughout history this has happened...not just the last few hundred years.
You draw the line at the intent of the story...not stretching as hard as you can to find something unrelated to the tale to shut it down.
I agree with you. But the line keeps getting moved. Once this attraction refurb is underway, or done, the line will be moved again. Progressed, if you will.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Johnny is the protagonist, and Remus is also a main character. Both can be true in stories.

Mr. Banks is the protagonist of Mary Poppins because he changes under all the adversity he was blind to. Mary is a main principal character.


If you want to know more about differences of a protagonist and main character in a story, and why they are often not the same thing the following sums it up well or feel free to do your own version of the research.

"The Main Character is the central character in the Main Character Throughline while the Protagonist is the central character in the Objective Story Throughline. They can, and often are, the same character but they don't necessarily have to be. In fact, there are many stories that don't follow this pattern. To Kill A Mockingbird is the example used in the theory book. Attitcus (Gregory Peck) is the Protagonist in the larger Objective Storyline surrounding the trial of Tom Robinson. Scout (Mary Badham) is the Main Character in the very personal storyline examining her prejudices towards "Boo" Radley. Both examine prejudice; the former from a more cold, logical perspective, the latter from a more heartfelt, emotional perspective."

Uncle Remus is a main character, not really a debate.

Mamma Odie is not, not really a debate.
 

TwilightZone

Well-Known Member
It is a better ride.... but it's not a great ride. By modern standards, it's passable. It still has a low effort, non-story/recap of elements of the film as the premise rather than doing something fun and new with the IP. It still doesn't belong in World Showcase and no attempt was even made to make it fit. I'm sick of these low effort movie recap rides. The OG Fantasyland rides were different. They're quaint, they're old, there's an excuse. But today, they could be so much more creative than "recap the movie". This is what I fear the outcome will be with Tiana's Bayou Adventure. It's gonna probably look awesome... and it's also probably going to be another uninspired recap of the film.
Thinking about it, Splash Mountain is also a "recap the movie" ride, but there's still something charming about it that makes it stick out compared to modern recap rides. Maybe it's because the imagineers added enough new scenes and immersive environments to make it not stick out as much?
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Great question, and one I’m afraid I don’t know the answer to.

I’d never even considered The Rescuers as a suitable IP!

I'm guessing The Rescuers would have been a harder sell for Frontierland, considering it takes place in the 50s at the earliest (I don't think it's actually specified but can't be any earlier than that). That wouldn't have been an issue for the Disneyland location, of course.

I suppose the other (maybe larger) issue is that while the main characters are rodents, humans are still an important part of the story. There are no humans at all in the Br'er tales.

Still wish they'd use The Rescuers Down Under at Animal Kingdom as an excuse for an Australia area.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
But my direct response was to the idea that everyone loved maelstrom and acknowledges it was a better ride than frozen. In that limited view I think the lines we had when frozen opened and continue to have in comparison to maelstrom help show what ride the general public like better.
I don't remember a lot of "maelstrom was a better ride than frozen." I do remember a lot of frozen has no business in Norway and they should have kept maelstrom. I think most people knew that Frozen would be more popular than maelstrom. But that isn't the point. It was about attention to the theming. I would put money down that you could have swapped, any fantasyland ride, spaceship earth, pirates, dinosaur, haunted mansion or a host of others with frozen, and instant huge lines. That would in no way be a reflection on what the public likes better in my opinion. It only shows you there was huge pent up demand for frozen.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
Thinking about it, Splash Mountain is also a "recap the movie" ride, but there's still something charming about it that makes it stick out compared to modern recap rides. Maybe it's because the imagineers added enough new scenes and immersive environments to make it not stick out as much?
On this specific level, there were a few things Splash Mountain had working in its favor - the ride only attempts to recap the animated sections of the movie, which do not represent the overall plot of the movie itself, but are more a collection of shorts presented as asides within the actual plot of the movie. There's less ground to have to cover in the short-form medium of a ride than the usual full-length animated feature. That most riders likely haven't seen the movie helps this too, because those guests come in with little to no preconcieved notion about the story being told. It's easier to find the holes in something like Snow White's Scary Adventures when you've seen that movie a few dozen times, but when it comes to new information people tend to make sense of what they see.

Since Splash Mountain doesn't rely much on the guest having pre-existing knowledge of the movie, and since there aren't huge swaths of some 90 minute story happening "offscreen" within the ride, Splash Mountain presents a relatively compact story that many guests are digesting for the first time without comparison to how the movie did it and what elements of that might be missing. All the pieces are there to make sense of what's happening, even on your first ride. This is a surprisingly rare trait for a ride based on a movie.

Truthfully, I think two of the biggest lessons that could be learned from Splash Mountain are 1) the value of basing a ride on properties people aren't as familiar with (or, dare I say it, ORIGINAL ideas), and 2) the value of basing attractions around shorter-form source material. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride somewhat speaks to these too - when your source is more condensed than a full-length feature its values are often more distilled, which makes it easier to hone in on the aspirational element that might suit a ride, and you're less likely to upset anyone in distilling further. There's less sauce to get lost in than a full length feature with famous and beloved elements, where it becomes difficult to choose which to exclude from the ride adaptation. One of the big problems with "Book Report" rides is that they require you to kill so many of your darlings to make an experience that can stand on its own, and that's seen as antithetical to the point of basing a ride on something people already love - you risk disappointing the fans by cutting somebody's favorite part. The flip side, of course, is that if you don't make enough cuts you end up with a ride that piles in too much to actually satisfy anybody. The Little Mermaid dark ride is basically the poster child for this. Meanwhile, you'll basically never find anyone getting off Splash Mountain or Mr. Toad saying "They cut my favorite part of the movie!"
 
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