Splash Mountain re-theme announced

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Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
this... this is what i am holding on to. I am a HUGE baxter fan. If hes willing to put his name on it, and say these things, i believe it.

'Consulting' on a project is very different then actually having a more active role in a project.
He can advise and contribute ideas, but sadly that doesn't mean the team actually working on said project will take his valuable advice.

Remember kids -
Just because he is consulting on this doesn't mean he is endorsing the changes.

I'd like to hear more from Tony himself about the matter and not just a couple of lines contained in a Company PR announcement.

-
 

Next Big Thing

Well-Known Member
This post is probably going to be strongly disagreed with and lost in the barrage of posts on this issue, but I feel its worth sharing and explaining a few aspects regarding my opinions on this.

You should be able to look back on my post history and see that I was pretty strongly against most attraction rethemes: from Frozenstrom to Guardians. Out of the recent string of ride rethemes that Disney has done, I can genuinely say that this one bohers me the least by a pretty sizable margin. Enough to the point where I'm not just tolerating it, but supporting it. So... why? This seems like something that, based on my track record, I should be strongly opposed to. To make this a little easier, I'm going to compare it to another operating attraction at MK with some in poor taste cultural depictions and talk about how that could/should change and how that does and does not apply to Splash Mountain's case.

For the sake of this post, I will be comparing Splash Mountain with the Jungle Cruise. For starters, Jungle Cruise has a more clearly problematic portrayal of African people in the attraction, as seen in the head hunters section, where stereotypical "savage" images are used as a threat to comedic effect. Thankfully, this could easily be corrected by removing this one section and replacing it with another gimmick, maybe bring in the pirañas from DL or something. Regardless, it is one part of a larger attraction.

Splash Mountain is clearly different, in that its racist moments are not at all explicitly found in the attraction; in fact, the attraction even tries to hastily cover up some of the problematic moments ported over from the films. As one of many examples, Brer Rabbit's capture with the beehive honey is intended to replicate his capture with the "tar baby" (the name alone should throw up about five red flags). Or there is the way that Brer Rabbit is meant to evoke the mannerisms and actions of a slave (African-American Vernacular and all) while Brer Fox is effectively a white slave owner of the time. Finally, one of the most unknown offenders is the iconic song itself "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah" which is derived from blackface performances intended to actively mock the African-American population. The ties to racism is so intertwined with the attraction that it would be impossible to modify in the same way as Jungle Cruise. For JC you just get a new scene' for Splash Mountain, take away the way the Brers are presented, some of the tropes from the film, and the song, and you barely have a ride left. At that point, if you remove that, there has to be a conscious effort to keep Song of the South involved, which I can guarantee there is next to no desire to do.

As for "why Princess and the Frog?" it's really the only IP that could easily slip into both mountains. Sure it's a stretch in Frontierland, but so was Song of the South. As for the "yes, but why not keep Splash Mountain and give Tiana her own ride?" crowd: Splash Mountain was on borrowed time due to its irremovable ties to racist symbols, and (at least at DLR) there wasn't really a good spot to give Tiana her own ride. Really this kills two birds with one stone (and we don't have to see some god-awful visuals of Splash being demolished Horizons-style.

I know Splash is a sentimental favorite for many, but if we want a better future we need to account for past mistakes. Letting a ride that has inherent ties to racist portrayals of African-Americans would not let that happen.


As kind of a P.S., I've seen a lot of people suggest that Tony Baxter was forced into being involved with this. I have had it confirmed by different people that he wasn't, and that he was asked and he elected to be involved with this.
Could not agree more.

To the majority the rest of this thread... you should be ashamed of yourself.
 

BigDlover

Well-Known Member
'Consulting' on a project is very different then actually having a more active role in a project.
He can advise and contribute ideas, but sadly that doesn't mean the team actually working on said project will take his valuable advice.

Remember kids -
Just because he is consulting on this doesn't mean he is endorsing the changes.
I'd like to hear more from Tony himself about the matter and not just a couple of lines contained in a Company PR announcement.

-
I'd be really surprised if we hear anything more about the political side of this from anyone official given how Disney has completely banned the SOTS movie for years now. I bet their PR has instructed everyone to stay silent. They even said they had been planning this change for a while now - I don't believe that for a second. This was clearly in direct response to the current movements and petitions.
 

SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
This post is probably going to be strongly disagreed with and lost in the barrage of posts on this issue, but I feel its worth sharing and explaining a few aspects regarding my opinions on this.

You should be able to look back on my post history and see that I was pretty strongly against most attraction rethemes: from Frozenstrom to Guardians. Out of the recent string of ride rethemes that Disney has done, I can genuinely say that this one bohers me the least by a pretty sizable margin. Enough to the point where I'm not just tolerating it, but supporting it. So... why? This seems like something that, based on my track record, I should be strongly opposed to. To make this a little easier, I'm going to compare it to another operating attraction at MK with some in poor taste cultural depictions and talk about how that could/should change and how that does and does not apply to Splash Mountain's case.

For the sake of this post, I will be comparing Splash Mountain with the Jungle Cruise. For starters, Jungle Cruise has a more clearly problematic portrayal of African people in the attraction, as seen in the head hunters section, where stereotypical "savage" images are used as a threat to comedic effect. Thankfully, this could easily be corrected by removing this one section and replacing it with another gimmick, maybe bring in the pirañas from DL or something. Regardless, it is one part of a larger attraction.

Splash Mountain is clearly different, in that its racist moments are not at all explicitly found in the attraction; in fact, the attraction even tries to hastily cover up some of the problematic moments ported over from the films. As one of many examples, Brer Rabbit's capture with the beehive honey is intended to replicate his capture with the "tar baby" (the name alone should throw up about five red flags). Or there is the way that Brer Rabbit is meant to evoke the mannerisms and actions of a slave (African-American Vernacular and all) while Brer Fox is effectively a white slave owner of the time. Finally, one of the most unknown offenders is the iconic song itself "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah" which is derived from blackface performances intended to actively mock the African-American population. The ties to racism is so intertwined with the attraction that it would be impossible to modify in the same way as Jungle Cruise. For JC you just get a new scene' for Splash Mountain, take away the way the Brers are presented, some of the tropes from the film, and the song, and you barely have a ride left. At that point, if you remove that, there has to be a conscious effort to keep Song of the South involved, which I can guarantee there is next to no desire to do.

As for "why Princess and the Frog?" it's really the only IP that could easily slip into both mountains. Sure it's a stretch in Frontierland, but so was Song of the South. As for the "yes, but why not keep Splash Mountain and give Tiana her own ride?" crowd: Splash Mountain was on borrowed time due to its irremovable ties to racist symbols, and (at least at DLR) there wasn't really a good spot to give Tiana her own ride. Really this kills two birds with one stone (and we don't have to see some god-awful visuals of Splash being demolished Horizons-style.

I know Splash is a sentimental favorite for many, but if we want a better future we need to account for past mistakes. Letting a ride that has inherent ties to racist portrayals of African-Americans would not let that happen.


As kind of a P.S., I've seen a lot of people suggest that Tony Baxter was forced into being involved with this. I have had it confirmed by different people that he wasn't, and that he was asked and he elected to be involved with this.

I am torn about this post because I absolutely agree with it, but on the other hand, what point does this stop?

To clarify: I am not taking the stance of "the socialist left is taking over!" as some others on this forum are, a fact which absolutely amazing me. But really, if everything is measured to this level of cultural scrutiny when does this stop?

Sleeping Beauty was raped in the story it was derived for. Time to tear down two castles for being symbols of misogyny and oppression.

World Showcase is the biggest offender of this.

China: Tianmen Square
Germany: WW2
etc.
 

disneygeek90

Well-Known Member
This post is probably going to be strongly disagreed with and lost in the barrage of posts on this issue, but I feel its worth sharing and explaining a few aspects regarding my opinions on this.

You should be able to look back on my post history and see that I was pretty strongly against most attraction rethemes: from Frozenstrom to Guardians. Out of the recent string of ride rethemes that Disney has done, I can genuinely say that this one bohers me the least by a pretty sizable margin. Enough to the point where I'm not just tolerating it, but supporting it. So... why? This seems like something that, based on my track record, I should be strongly opposed to. To make this a little easier, I'm going to compare it to another operating attraction at MK with some in poor taste cultural depictions and talk about how that could/should change and how that does and does not apply to Splash Mountain's case.

For the sake of this post, I will be comparing Splash Mountain with the Jungle Cruise. For starters, Jungle Cruise has a more clearly problematic portrayal of African people in the attraction, as seen in the head hunters section, where stereotypical "savage" images are used as a threat to comedic effect. Thankfully, this could easily be corrected by removing this one section and replacing it with another gimmick, maybe bring in the pirañas from DL or something. Regardless, it is one part of a larger attraction.

Splash Mountain is clearly different, in that its racist moments are not at all explicitly found in the attraction; in fact, the attraction even tries to hastily cover up some of the problematic moments ported over from the films. As one of many examples, Brer Rabbit's capture with the beehive honey is intended to replicate his capture with the "tar baby" (the name alone should throw up about five red flags). Or there is the way that Brer Rabbit is meant to evoke the mannerisms and actions of a slave (African-American Vernacular and all) while Brer Fox is effectively a white slave owner of the time. Finally, one of the most unknown offenders is the iconic song itself "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah" which is derived from blackface performances intended to actively mock the African-American population. The ties to racism is so intertwined with the attraction that it would be impossible to modify in the same way as Jungle Cruise. For JC you just get a new scene' for Splash Mountain, take away the way the Brers are presented, some of the tropes from the film, and the song, and you barely have a ride left. At that point, if you remove that, there has to be a conscious effort to keep Song of the South involved, which I can guarantee there is next to no desire to do.

As for "why Princess and the Frog?" it's really the only IP that could easily slip into both mountains. Sure it's a stretch in Frontierland, but so was Song of the South. As for the "yes, but why not keep Splash Mountain and give Tiana her own ride?" crowd: Splash Mountain was on borrowed time due to its irremovable ties to racist symbols, and (at least at DLR) there wasn't really a good spot to give Tiana her own ride. Really this kills two birds with one stone (and we don't have to see some god-awful visuals of Splash being demolished Horizons-style.

I know Splash is a sentimental favorite for many, but if we want a better future we need to account for past mistakes. Letting a ride that has inherent ties to racist portrayals of African-Americans would not let that happen.


As kind of a P.S., I've seen a lot of people suggest that Tony Baxter was forced into being involved with this. I have had it confirmed by different people that he wasn't, and that he was asked and he elected to be involved with this.
One of the best posts I have ever read on this board. Thank you for this.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
I was on page 2 of 99 and replied to a post. Sorry I didnt' read it all yet your majesty.

Yeah, you're going to wind up asking the same questions already answered or making points already debunked by doing that.

I tend to open up posts I may want to reply to in a new tap (the link is the post number in the upper right of the post). Then when caught up, I go through the open tabs and make my comments or close them if already addressed.
 

britain

Well-Known Member
'Consulting' on a project is very different then actually having a more active role in a project.
He can advise and contribute ideas, but sadly that doesn't mean the team actually working on said project will take his valuable advice.

Remember kids -
Just because he is consulting on this doesn't mean he is endorsing the changes.
I'd like to hear more from Tony himself about the matter and not just a couple of lines contained in a Company PR announcement.

-

It’s VERY likely they want Tony involved because he knows the facility so well. He knows “where the bodies are buried” so to speak.

“No, you can’t put that Dr. Facillier figure there. We wanted to put a Brer Bear figure there, but the logs move quickly in that corner and water tends to overflow in that spot....”

That sort of thing.
 

Club Cooloholic

Well-Known Member
My response was not about kids caring about the theme, it was about placing emphasis on whether they understood it or not. My point was it doesn't matter if they understand it or not.
Well, some do ask, we all know what it's based on. Listen once they changed TOT in DL, I realized Disney will always make changes. And I'll be straight with you, if they wanted to completely rip apart Space Mountain, change the track add more projections whatever I am OK with that too. These are theme parks. Main Street was long ago turned into a giant souvenir shop. This just doesn't rate high on my list because there is a chance it might be better.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
It’s VERY likely they want Tony involved because he knows the facility so well. He knows “where the bodies are buried” so to speak.

“No, you can’t put that Dr. Facillier figure there. We wanted to put a Brer Bear figure there, but the logs move quickly in that corner and water tends to overflow in that spot....”

That sort of thing.


The reality is more likely they want his name attached to it to better 'justify' the changes in the eyes of Park advocates.







-
 

BigDlover

Well-Known Member
Sleeping Beauty was raped in the story it was derived for. Time to tear down two castles for being symbols of misogyny and oppression.

World Showcase is the biggest offender of this.

China: Tianmen Square
Germany: WW2
etc.
But Sleeping Beauty wasn't raped in Disney's movie. There were racist elements in Song of the South, which Disney themselves made. It's not Disney's job to change the entire world, but they can change their own attractions.

And honoring a country as a whole is not a fair correlation. You can stop honoring a movie like SOTS by changing its ride but what are you going to do - pretend like China isn't still a country?
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Down the Bayou makes sense bc of the "down" part lol. Maybe Down the Bayou with Tiana & Friends or something.

How about "Way Down Upon the Froggy River"* ?


*It's a joke. "Swanee River" has a very racist origin. And yet, it's still Florida's state song.... for now.
 

SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
But Sleeping Beauty wasn't raped in Disney's movie. There were racist elements in Song of the South, which Disney themselves made. It's not Disney's job to change the entire world, but they can change their own attractions.

And honoring a country as a whole is not a fair correlation. You can stop honoring a movie like SOTS by changing its ride but what are you going to do - pretend like China isn't still a country?

Correct. Disney did not include the problematic parts of China in the pavilion. They did not include the problematic parts of Sleeping Beauty in the movie or the castle. Disney did however include parts in SOTS which absolutely is 100% problematic. However, the problematic pieces of SOTS did not translate to Splash Mountain, same as China.
 
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