Splash Mountain re-theme announced

[Californian Elitist]

I’m not even sure anymore as my post you’re referring to has been edited by a moderator. They edited yours too. Are we bickering towards each other? No, right?


We have discussed things on numerous occasions. It’s alright if you don’t recall who I am. You stick out to me because you are the resident Disneylander. As for James Gunn, I didn’t say you spoke about that either. All said was how I don’t recall you being vocal about that being how insensitive his “jokes” were, which by the way are far worse than anything Gina Carano has posted.

You don’t need to post every time you disagree on certain things, I just find it amusing how you literally came out of nowhere to say...

You later went on to say that she dissed trans people, which she did not. I think she was just messing around, it’s just unfortunate that she wanted to mess around with the wrong crowd.

Fellas like Rian Johnson and Pablo Hidalgo are always trolling fans. Fans voice their displeasure to the company and the company does nothing! James Gunn makes inappropriate jokes regarding pedophilia, the company parts ways with him for a while only to later rehire him when there was absolutely no investigation to follow up on those disturbing tweets. There is zero evidence that Carano is anti-trans and pro-nazi. On the contrary though, a lot of people misunderstood her point.

When you have the chance, please check out this video. Forget about the political side these folks are on for a few minutes and give it a listen, it explains Carano’s situation in depth and may help you find the clarification you need.

​

I am aware of the offensive nature written within the pages of Joel Chandler Harris books and how some of the elements were brought over into the Song of the South. Though, Splash Mountain does not play with those same offensive tropes as displayed in the film or novels. It does away with it, not to mention that there are a lot of folks out there that are not aware of the Song of the South’s existence.

I don’t know what’s going on anymore. Maybe we should just move on. I’ve already said that folks who continuously tweet and post inappropriate things after being warned should be let go.

I didn’t come out of “nowhere.” Carano was brought up as a means to point fingers at Disney and I responded. There’s currently a thread on Carano and I’ve discussed the situation in that thread, too. I didn’t say she was anti-trans and pro-Nazi. But her tweets had me give her the side-eye. One of them could be taken as anti-trans. We can agree to disagree on respective personal impacts. We will continue to go in circles.

Splash Mountain may not contain the racism from the film, but it’s still based on Song of the South, a movie with racism present and one that Disney likes to pretend never happened. Combine that with the fact that DL is lacking healthy and positive black representation in their attractions and now PatF seems like a viable replacement.

Maybe Disney shouldn’t have spent years hiding the film and instead welcomed discussion about it. Now people are finding out about Song of the South and its link to Splash.

Again, this is Disney’s fault.

 

[Disney Analyst]

So here's a question I haven't seen answered.

Conceding for a second that Song of the South is sufficiently "problematic" to necessitate a retheme, what makes Princess and the Frog any less problematic for the exact same reasons? Song of the South is "bad" because it paints a rosy picture of the Reconstruction South. Wouldn't Princess and the Frog be just as "bad" for painting a rosy picture of the Jim Crow South?

I personally would like to hear from the black members on this board about their thoughts on your question, if anyone wanted to weigh in?

 

[_caleb]

As I’ve previously stated in the discussion only thread, even if Disney had any potential replacement ideas, I believe that they may have at least been depending on online outcry to occur before giving a full green light to any of them in order to keep the backlash towards such a decision manageable.

Hmm. That’s an interesting take. That Disney may have had the plans in place, but was waiting for an opportune moment to interoduce them.

 

[_caleb]

Everyone who believes Disney's bullcrap that this was in the works before the petitions, I'd like to share a few things with you...

View attachment 533548

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

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Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

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Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

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Great example with the Brer Rabbit 2020 pin, but can you please take screenshots of the other examples? You can’t see them unless you are a part of the private Facebook group.

I’d also be interested to see the backs of those pins...

Regardless, I’m sure it wouldn’t be news to anyone if whoever greenlit the pin design (whenever that might have been) was a bit out of sync with whoever approved the Splash Mountain retheme announcement. I could also see that being a recent, commemorative piece Disney launched to capitalize on the announcement since the ride has so many fans. They’ve done “one last ride” merch before.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

Hmm. That’s an interesting take. That Disney may have had the plans in place, but was waiting for an opportune moment to interoduce them.

Thank you. If you think discussion on this topic can get intense now, just imagine if Disney decided to make the announcement out of nowhere at the D23 Expo. The live reaction would’ve been something the likes of which we’ve never seen at a high profile fan convention.

 

[Brer Panther]

Reminder, if Splash Mountain is problematic due to featuring characters and songs from a movie that has racist/problematic elements (none of which are actually in the ride), wouldn't the Princess and the Frog ride be problematic due to being based on a movie that has racist/problematic elements?

 

[champdisney]

Thank you. If you think discussion on this topic can get intense now, just imagine if Disney decided to make the announcement out of nowhere at the D23 Expo. The live reaction would’ve been something the likes of which we’ve never seen at a high profile fan convention.

100% agree.

That right there is a great closing argument to end this debate. For good.

 

[Phil12]

Reminder, if Splash Mountain is problematic due to featuring characters and songs from a movie that has racist/problematic elements (none of which are actually in the ride), wouldn't the Princess and the Frog ride be problematic due to being based on a movie that has racist/problematic elements?

The entire song Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah is derived from the chorus of an old 19th century minstrel song designed to mock, ridicule, denigrate and disparage black people to wit:

Old Zip Coon/Turkey in the Straw - 2018 - Question of the Month - Jim Crow Museum

 

[_caleb]

The entire song Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah is derived from the chorus of an old 19th century minstrel song designed to mock, ridicule, denigrate and disparage black people to wit:

Old Zip Coon/Turkey in the Straw - 2018 - Question of the Month - Jim Crow Museum

I was wondering when you might come back!

Yes, this is also a signifiant aspect of the discussion. And fans of Disney animation may be familiar with “Turkey in the Straw” (Steamboat Willie and others), which is related to Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah.

Now, before anyone cries ”pretty soon everything will be declared racist!”, please look into the history of this music. Minstrelsy is a real part of American history, and has deep and enduring influence on American cultures.

By the way, I can simultaneously say that I‘ve always loved hearing Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah in Disney Parks while also acknowledging that the song is derivative of racist and exploitative history. Culture is complicated.

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

I was wondering when you might come back!

Yes, this is also a signifiant aspect of the discussion. And fans of Disney animation may be familiar with “Turkey in the Straw” (Steamboat Willie and others), which is related to Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah.

Now, before anyone cries ”pretty soon everything will be declared racist!”, please look into the history of this music. Minstrelsy is a real part of American history, and has deep and enduring influence on American cultures.

By the way, I can simultaneously say that I‘ve always loved hearing Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah in Disney Parks while also acknowledging that the song is derivative of racist and exploitative history. Culture is complicated.

Not one person on the planet earth, is currently offended by Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah.

 

[_caleb]

Not one person on the planet earth, is currently offended by Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah.

This seems like a silly thing to say. Especially from someone who often says that people can find literally anything to be offended by.

But it doesn’t matter, because nobody here has said anything about being offended by Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah.

And don’t even get me started on what the corrupt ethics of determining right and wrong solely based on whether or not someone expresses offense.

 

[Brer Panther]

Where exactly is the solid proof that "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" is based on that song? Just because they both have "Zip" in the name doesn't mean it's based on that song. And nobody answered my question about what makes what people consider racist about The Princess and the Frog okay?

 

[Sue_Vongello]

This post is not about the validity of the problematic elements of the ride or pro-retheme or not. That’s my preface.

I’ve seen a lot of posts on this thread recently that say Disney is not making this move out of fear of the “Twitter mob” ... the problem is people are getting hung up on certain nomenclature. Sure saying Twitter is the sole reason is an oversimplification but it still works to succinctly define the reasons why.

In my line of work I’ve had the opportunity to work for many of the top fortune 100 companies and have been involved in the highest level of decision making meetings so let me be clear about this - any public company that answers to a board of directors does not ever make decisions solely based on altruism or what is the current social dynamic. Or better put it is absolutely never the driving force unless it affects the numbers. Every decision is made solely based around how something might affect their numbers. If there are some altruistic ancillary benefits then great! And those will most certainly be paraded out as part of a PR campaign but do not be fooled that this is Disney trying to be socially aware or inclusive. It’s a marketing ploy. That is the real fantasy land.

The reality is they have heard from outside forces (partly Twitter) their displeasure with the current theme and they have run analytics and cost analysis about what would be the negative effects long term if they don’t retheme the ride and what the ROI would be if they do a modest retheme that they can market as being socially aware. This explains the modest budget projections we’ve heard rumored because it wouldn’t make sense for them to do a large scale crazy retheme. The numbers wouldn’t make sense. Basically, very simply, from my experience, it probably breaks down like this:

current maintenance costs of Splash as is + loss of future business from bad publicity vs. initial cost of retheme - reduced maintenance costs from reduced animatronics + initial bump from good publicity - loss of business from people upset about the retheme

The reality is the people furious about the retheme are rabid Disney fans and so in all likelihood won’t stop going to the park. The majority of the ones most upset are probably not as rabid fans therefore represent future unearned business.

So sure it’s not fear of Twitter mob per se but it is an analytic cost based approach to determine the viability of a retheme based on current social trends. The numbers are probably not large but the analytic approach very clearly shows them that they stand to increase revenue by this retheme, however large or small, which is the only reason its being done, especially in this current economic environment.

 

[Incomudro]

The entire song Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah is derived from the chorus of an old 19th century minstrel song designed to mock, ridicule, denigrate and disparage black people to wit:

Old Zip Coon/Turkey in the Straw - 2018 - Question of the Month - Jim Crow Museum

"Derived from."
See?
There's your problem right there.
How far do we go back and link the derivation of things?
We can play that game ad infinitum, and we will find nothing is clean enough, pure enough, and acceptable enough.
Virtually anything in any culture can be connected with an unpleasant past.
Intent is what is important, not some root connection.
Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah is a happy song, sung by a man who is happy on a beautiful day.
Ever have that feeling?
It's not hard for me to believe that you haven't, given your propensity to find the bad in everything.

 

[_caleb]

"Derived from."
See?
There's your problem right there.
How far do we go back and link the derivation of things?
We can play that game ad infinitum, and we will find nothing is clean enough, pure enough, and acceptable enough.
Virtually anything in any culture can be connected with an unpleasant past.
Intent is what is important, not some root connection.
Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah is a happy song, sung by a man who is happy on a beautiful day.
Ever have that feeling?
It's not hard for me to believe that you haven't, given your propensity to find the bad in everything.

You’re right that LOTS of things can be indirectly traced to racism, and that we can never be completed disconnected from what you call “an unpleasant past” (I think that’s an understatement!)

Some things aren’t just loosely-affiliated with unpleasant things, they’re actually responsible to perpetuating hate, bigotry, and oppression. I think we might all agree with this idea in theory, which means now we’re talking about what falls into that category and what doesn’t.

And that’s the point—these things are determined by a society in a given point in history. Every generation re-negotiates these things within society as we decide social constructs— what is race? What is racist? What’s far-enough removed from racism that we‘re okay with it, vs. what’s too rooted in racist ideology for us to tolerate. This is what’s happening now.

Song of the South was controversial when it was produced, but it did reflect the sensibilities of those who created it. Over time, the tone and message were deemed (by society and by Disney in response) to be racially insensitive, so Disney locked it away. When they built Splash Mountain, they figured they could use the Brer characters in a way that was far enough removed form the racially insensitive parts of SotS.

And for the 1989 DL audience, they did. But that was a time when most people didn’t have access to the source material. It was also a time when America was perhaps less concerned with racial insensitivity. Now, 30+ years later, society is re-negotiating. And a ride that may have been accepted as different enough from the source material now isn’t as acceptable.

 

[Incomudro]

You’re right that LOTS of things can be indirectly traced to racism, and that we can never be completed disconnected from what you call “an unpleasant past” (I think that’s an understatement!)

Some things aren’t just loosely-affiliated with unpleasant things, they’re actually responsible to perpetuating hate, bigotry, and oppression. I think we might all agree with this idea in theory, which means now we’re talking about what falls into that category and what doesn’t.

And that’s the point—these things are determined by a society in a given point in history. Every generation re-negotiates these things within society as we decide social constructs— what is race? What is racist? What’s far-enough removed from racism that we‘re okay with it, vs. what’s too rooted in racist ideology for us to tolerate. This is what’s happening now.

Song of the South was controversial when it was produced, but it did reflect the sensibilities of those who created it. Over time, the tone and message were deemed (by society and by Disney in response) to be racially insensitive, so Disney locked it away. When they built Splash Mountain, they figured they could use the Brer characters in a way that was far enough removed form the racially insensitive parts of SotS.

And for the 1989 DL audience, they did. But that was a time when most people didn’t have access to the source material. It was also a time when America was perhaps less concerned with racial insensitivity. Now, 30+ years later, society is re-negotiating. And a ride that may have been accepted as different enough from the source material now isn’t as acceptable.

I certainly agree with the principle of your post.
My problem is that today's society is on a veritable witch hunt, turning over stones - and indeed doing online research to find the most tenuous of connections.
They are also very selective about what they find offensive.
Where does it end, and why should the mobs have the power?
As a rock fan for instance - why not go after rock music?
Steven Tyler, Robert Plant etc., certainly got their styles from blues singers.
What's the root of blues?
Heck, even the foods we eat aren't "pure."
Want to talk about sugar?

 

[_caleb]

Where exactly is the solid proof that "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" is based on that song? Just because they both have "Zip" in the name doesn't mean it's based on that song. And nobody answered my question about what makes what people consider racist about The Princess and the Frog okay?

I guess my attempt to address your question wasn’t good enough?

The word “zip” isn’t the only connection. Zip-A-Dee-Do-Dah isn’t a real word. But it’s very similar to the likewise nonsensical line: "Zip a duden duden duden zip a duden day," from some very racist versions of “Turkey in the Straw“ popularized in “Zip ” minstrel shows.

This was a made-up version of Black vernacular—used by White people to make fun of Black people (”look how funny they talk!”), which was a central feature to minstrel shows.

 

[_caleb]

I certainly agree with the principle of your post.
My problem is that today's society is on a veritable witch hunt, turning over stones - and indeed doing online research to find the most tenuous of connections.
They are also very selective about what they find offensive.
Where does it end, and why should the mobs have the power?
As a rock fan for instance - why not go after rock music?
Steven Tyler, Robert Plant etc., certainly got their styles from blues singers.
What's the root of blues?
Heck, even the foods we eat aren't "pure."
Want to talk about sugar?

I completely understand this. And to those who have come to terms with how these things had been “negotiated“ by society (what was “racist” and what wasn’t), it can feel like a mob with pitchforks and torches looking for another thing to declare as racist.

But what if that isn’t what’s happening? What if this is (and has always been) the way society navigates these things?

Sometimes, people bring up racist connections but society collectively shrugs and says, ”no, we don’t think that’s a problem.” ?

You mention Rock n roll. Did Elvis steal from Chuck Berry (and others), or was he merely inspired by them? What about Tiki culture? White rappers? There’s no shortage of people complaining about these things today, but society largely just says, “we’re fine with this.”

Sometimes, however, when we learn about the backstory of something—even something we love—we have to decide if it’s worth it to us to maintain that thing. We have to reflect and ask if this thing is different enough from any racist intentions that its now ok, or if we should move on from it in order for society to heal and grow. And people will evaluate these things differently (see this thread as an example)!

What some fear is a dangerous slippery slope others might praise as welcomed progress. The voices might seem louder because of social media, but I don’t see it as anything new.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

This post is not about the validity of the problematic elements of the ride or pro-retheme or not. That’s my preface.

I’ve seen a lot of posts on this thread recently that say Disney is not making this move out of fear of the “Twitter mob” ... the problem is people are getting hung up on certain nomenclature. Sure saying Twitter is the sole reason is an oversimplification but it still works to succinctly define the reasons why.

In my line of work I’ve had the opportunity to work for many of the top fortune 100 companies and have been involved in the highest level of decision making meetings so let me be clear about this - any public company that answers to a board of directors does not ever make decisions solely based on altruism or what is the current social dynamic. Or better put it is absolutely never the driving force unless it affects the numbers. Every decision is made solely based around how something might affect their numbers. If there are some altruistic ancillary benefits then great! And those will most certainly be paraded out as part of a PR campaign but do not be fooled that this is Disney trying to be socially aware or inclusive. It’s a marketing ploy. That is the real fantasy land.

The reality is they have heard from outside forces (partly Twitter) their displeasure with the current theme and they have run analytics and cost analysis about what would be the negative effects long term if they don’t retheme the ride and what the ROI would be if they do a modest retheme that they can market as being socially aware. This explains the modest budget projections we’ve heard rumored because it wouldn’t make sense for them to do a large scale crazy retheme. The numbers wouldn’t make sense. Basically, very simply, from my experience, it probably breaks down like this:

current maintenance costs of Splash as is + loss of future business from bad publicity vs. initial cost of retheme - reduced maintenance costs from reduced animatronics + initial bump from good publicity - loss of business from people upset about the retheme

The reality is the people furious about the retheme are rabid Disney fans and so in all likelihood won’t stop going to the park. The majority of the ones most upset are probably not as rabid fans therefore represent future unearned business.

So sure it’s not fear of Twitter mob per se but it is an analytic cost based approach to determine the viability of a retheme based on current social trends. The numbers are probably not large but the analytic approach very clearly shows them that they stand to increase revenue by this retheme, however large or small, which is the only reason its being done, especially in this current economic environment.

I respectfully disagree. I agree that in the past this may have been true, but currently, at certain companies, the ideologues have gained a foothold in corporate leadership. Disney is one of these companies. A perfect example is the Kathleen Kennedy and her minions at Lucasfilm doing their absolute best to destroy Star Wars because they hate that Luke Skywalker and Han Solo were the face of the billion dollar franchise for 40 years. They didn't fire Gina Carano because it was going to make them more money; she was fired because they wanted to attack her conservative political beliefs. Another example is Marvel Comics - the actual comic book division. They have tons of very popular characters, almost exclusively white males, that have just made their film division (and Disney) billions of dollars over the last decade. Meanwhile, just as these white male characters were generating unbelievable popularity and money for Marvel Studios, the comic book division set out to change every one of these popular characters to some sort of diversity-character ... Captain America became black, Iron Man became a black teenage woman, Thor became a woman, Hawkeye became a woman, Luke Cage took over leadership of the Avengers, later the Avengers became "young" featuring the gay male couple, etc. They did not do this because they thought it would make them more money. But even if you believed they did, almost immediately as these changes started, the retail stores (the comic book stores) started screaming that nobody wanted to buy these books and that it was costing the company (and the retailers) a lot of money. New readers (just like the old readers) wanted to see the characters that they were watching on the screen - Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, male Thor, etc. If it was all about the money, somebody in the comic book division would have recognized the mistake and immediately started changing things back - it is a decade later and they have not. They still continue to push characters (Squirrel Girl, for example) that the book-buying audience does not want. These people aren't interested in making money (at least not for the companies they influence); they are interested in changing culture.

Regarding the Disney Parks division, the change from Splash Mountain to the Princess Tiana ride is not driven by the paying customers and the park attendees. It's driven by persons like this lady - - Carmen Smith, who works in Disney's Executive Creative Development and Inclusion Strategies for Walt Disney Imagineering. She's not advocating changing the ride to make money. She wants it to change to push culture in the direction she wants it to go.

 

[LittleBuford]

Regarding the Disney Parks division, the change from Splash Mountain to the Princess Tiana ride is not driven by the paying customers and the park attendees. It's driven by persons like this lady - - Carmen Smith, who works in Disney's Executive Creative Development and Inclusion Strategies for Walt Disney Imagineering. She's not advocating changing the ride to make money. She wants it to change to push culture in the direction she wants it to go.

Carmen Smith is an ideologue in your view? Could you pick out some quotes that you find particularly problematic from the video you shared?

Regarding comic books, some alternative perspectives to yours:

Comics retailers' shocking claim: Diversity isn't killing comics sales

Comics retailers' shocking claim: Diversity isn't killing comics sales

www.comicsbeat.com

Comic Sales Figures Prove To Marvel: Diversity Isn't The Problem

There's another reason female-led issues aren't selling...

screenrant.com