Splash Mountain re-theme announced

[Chi84]

TWDC does lots of dumb things for political reasons. It's why Red is no longer the hottie at the Wench Auction.

They also do some intelligent things for social reasons. The recent disclaimers make sense and are preferable, in my opinion, to simply removing the insensitive content.

 

[Chi84]

Finding someone else that shares your opinion does not make it a fact. And also opinions can’t be wrong, that’s why they are opinions and not facts.

You don’t know me either - so I’d check yourself before saying something doesn’t surprise you about me.

But thanks for attempting to talk about this in a civil, logical, and non judgemental manner - it really makes your arguments more valid.

But when it’s Disney’s opinion about Disney’s own product, which they no longer make available, their opinion carries more weight than others. Also, I don’t subscribe to the notion that opinions can’t be wrong. They can be, if they are based on misinformation or are contrary to established facts.

People express opinions on subjects they know nothing about. Those opinions are baseless and carry no weight.

 

[Sue_Vongello]

But when it’s Disney’s opinion about Disney’s own product, which they no longer make available, their opinion carries more weight than others. Also, I don’t subscribe to the notion that opinions can’t be wrong. They can be, if they are based on misinformation or are contrary to established facts.

People express opinions on subjects they know nothing about. Those opinions are baseless and carry no weight.

That’s fair but also in that article it wasn’t stated as Disney’s opinion. It was the writer’s interpretation of their position. But regardless I get your point in that they aren’t releasing it because they feel a certain type of way about it.

That’s a difficult argument because again we need to know the film maker’s intent. Was it their intent to make a racist film or was any problematic elements unintentional and a product of the time? Could they treat it like the rest of the films of the time and put a disclaimer on it? These are questions.

One of the closest pieces of evidence we have in regards to intent is this interview with an African American animator who worked with Walt and the studio close to this same time period ... while he doesn’t believe the film to be racist he does have a balanced view.

https:///2020/07/black-animator-defends-song-of-the-south-ne1/

Also thank you for making your points and being civil about the discussion.

 

[LittleBuford]

Absolutely you’re right ... but also Disney makes romanticized versions of everything. I wouldn’t have expected Disney to make a kids movie about the harsh reality of slavery ... I get that’s problematic in some ways but I also don’t think the intention of the filmmakers was to insidiously get African American people to see the value of obeying their masters.

And yeah to me, the theme was wrapped around - Johnny wanting to run away, couldn’t deal with his problems ... it’s only when he made friends with Remus, Toby, and Ginny did he learn from their experiences how to cope, grow, and find the joy in his life. Those friendships from different backgrounds, ages, and experiences are what helped and shaped him. So the message was seek out those friendships and experiences because you may learn something. Or that’s what I saw anyway ...

I don’t think Walt Disney or anyone else involved in Song of the South had bad or racist intentions. Rather, I think they unwittingly (or perhaps negligently) allowed the film to incorporate and perpetuate certain well-established tropes that were themselves problematic and already regarded as such even at the time. The result is well-meaning but in some regards deeply flawed, and those flaws have only grown more visible with time. Were it not a children’s film, I suspect it wouldn’t have been disavowed to the extent that it has: adult audiences are generally trusted to approach problematic old movies with an informed and critical eye.

It’s a shame, because the animated sequences are wonderful, as is much of the music.

 

[LF85]

This is why she thinks some people are rude about their arguments. You cannot present opinions as fact, which I’m sure you know. Saying SotS is unequivocally racist is an opinion, not a fact. The Disney company did not set out to make this movie because they wanted to tell a racist story. Sure there are problematic elements like most things did from that era - but saying it’s flat out racist and saying anyone that disagrees is an idiot - it’s wrong, period. You’re entitled to your opinion, and you may have points but it loses its steam when you state it as “facts.” And no, just because others may share your opinion does not make it a fact.

Additionally, to say “a few people” are fine with the theme the way it is now is also not fact, it’s actually closer to misrepresentation because the evidence we do have (petitions, for example, and circumstantial evidence from online communities) support the contrary ... it’s the overwhelming majority that do not think there are problems with the attraction. I’m not talking about systemic racism or what should happen to the theme ... just pragmatically talking about your statement of “a few people” ... which by all available evidence is not correct. Now if you want to say you disagree with the majority that’s fine or in your opinion to say the majority is evidence of a problem in this country, fine ... but you can’t say a few people and if you concede it’s the the majority then you can’t say well the majority is wrong or all of them are racist (or even that all of them are white, because I personally know many minorities that signed the petition to keep it just the way it is).

My point is this ... there are arguments for both sides but just because someone doesn’t agree with your opinion doesn’t mean they are “ignoring facts” or are morons that think “the moon landing is fake” ... you can make your points but frame them in ways that don’t distract from your message by misrepresenting information or belittling others.

This might be the greatest post I’ve ever read here.. Awesome response!

 

[Chi84]

The problem is with the definition of "majority." It may be that the majority of people who care enough to express an opinion on the Splash Mountain re-theme disagree with it, but that's a pretty small number of people compared to the number who visit WDW. It's like the people who post a poll here and conclude that the "overwhelming majority" of people support something.

As far as petitions go, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who opposed the re-theme did so simply because they see it as as a capitulation to the "woke mob."

 

[Sue_Vongello]

The problem is with the definition of "majority." It may be that the majority of people who care enough to express an opinion on the Splash Mountain re-theme disagree with it, but that's a pretty small number of people compared to the number who visit WDW. It's like the people who post a poll here and conclude that the "overwhelming majority" of people support something.

As far as petitions go, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who opposed the re-theme did so simply because they see it as as a capitulation to the "woke mob."

You will always have that problem because of sample size. But that’s all we have - you aren’t going to poll every guest that walks through the gate about Splash Mountain. And none of us can speculate from an educated perspective on what those numbers would be if they did.

All we have is the evidence we have - I can only speak from the actual data and that evidence speaks to a majority against the retheme (hence all the rumors now that it probably won’t happen in WDW). Now we can certainly discuss if that information is a true representation because yes more people against may care to speak up and sign petitions or vocalize their anger on the internet - (but there again is a strong argument there about who actually cares) but then again there is an argument, again just based on the sample size of data we have, that the majority of people that visit WDW have no clue what film the ride is based on and if you don’t know the film you aren’t going to get any problematic elements from the ride exclusively.

But yes, to your point - is the overwhelming majority that is against the retheme a 100% accurate and true representation of what every person who visits WDW thinks and feels about it? We don’t know. We can’t answer that.

But at the same time it’s all the data we have. I’m a data/stat geek - it was a large part of my career for my entire life (and I’m old) so I’d love to know true data from a much larger sample but unfortunately I don’t think we’ll ever see that.

 

[Chi84]

You will always have that problem because of sample size. But that’s all we have - you aren’t going to poll every guest that walks through the gate about Splash Mountain. And none of us can speculate from an educated perspective on what those numbers would be if they did.

All we have is the evidence we have - I can only speak from the actual data and that evidence speaks to a majority against the retheme (hence all the rumors now that it probably won’t happen in WDW). Now we can certainly discuss if that information is a true representation because yes more people against may care to speak up and sign petitions or vocalize their anger on the internet - (but there again is a strong argument there about who actually cares) but then again there is an argument, again just based on the sample size of data we have, that the majority of people that visit WDW have no clue what film the ride is based on and if you don’t know the film you aren’t going to get any problematic elements from the ride exclusively.

But yes, to your point - is the overwhelming majority that is against the retheme a 100% accurate and true representation of what every person who visits WDW thinks and feels about it? We don’t know. We can’t answer that.

But at the same time it’s all the data we have. I’m a data/stat geek - it was a large part of my career for my entire life (and I’m old) so I’d love to know true data from a much larger sample but unfortunately I don’t think we’ll ever see that.

I agree that the majority of people have no clue what film the ride was based on and don't get "problematic" elements from it. I'm old enough to have been visiting WDW since 1984 as an adult, and I've never seen the film. I'm in favor of the re-theme because I never liked the characters - they seem outdated and not particularly charming or interesting. If Disney can update the ride to make it relevant to current and future generations of guests and at the same time remove problematic elements, it's a win-win.

 

[Rich Brownn]

I don’t think Walt Disney or anyone else involved in Song of the South had bad or racist intentions. Rather, I think they unwittingly (or perhaps negligently) allowed the film to incorporate and perpetuate certain well-established tropes that were themselves problematic and already regarded as such even at the time. The result is well-meaning but in some regards deeply flawed, and those flaws have only grown more visible with time. Were it not a children’s film, I suspect it wouldn’t have been disavowed to the extent that it has: adult audiences are generally trusted to approach problematic old movies with an informed and critical eye.

It’s a shame, because the animated sequences are wonderful, as is much of the music.

I watched it recently with some of my POC friends. While they found it very mildly racist (They pointed out it was light years less racists than dozens of other films that were never pulled) one remarked "I dunno. I'd be offended if I was white. Those characters were really [questionable word removed] to each other. The only person with brains seemed to be Remus" LOL

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I watched it recently with some of my POC friends. While they found it very mildly racist (They pointed out it was light years less racists than dozens of other films that were never pulled) one remarked "I dunno. I'd be offended if I was white. Those characters were really [questionable word removed] to each other. The only person with brains seemed to be Remus" LOL

And this is the problem with the "woke" movement...they aren't listening to those whose opinions about racism are the ones that count.

 

[LittleBuford]

I watched it recently with some of my POC friends. While they found it very mildly racist (They pointed out it was light years less racists than dozens of other films that were never pulled) one remarked "I dunno. I'd be offended if I was white. Those characters were really [questionable word removed] to each other. The only person with brains seemed to be Remus" LOL

The issue isn't that Uncle Remus is portrayed unsympathetically; he is, as your friends noted, the most level-headed character in the film. But the same could be argued for Mammy in Gone with the Wind, which doesn't make that film any less problematic.

Regarding the parenthetical part of your post, I think what I said earlier about the film's target audience is key: had Song of the South not been a children's film, I doubt it would have been pulled. Another factor is that (unlike Gone with the Wind, for example) it simply isn't very good, except for the animated sequences.

To return to your friends, I think their perspective is absolutely valid. Not all people of colour, however, feel the same about the film, and I think the views of those who argue that it's racist also deserve to be taken into account.

 

[Brer Oswald]

I agree that the majority of people have no clue what film the ride was based on and don't get "problematic" elements from it. I'm old enough to have been visiting WDW since 1984 as an adult, and I've never seen the film. I'm in favor of the re-theme because I never liked the characters - they seem outdated and not particularly charming or interesting. If Disney can update the ride to make it relevant to current and future generations of guests and at the same time remove problematic elements, it's a win-win.

If you’ve never seen the film, how can you offer an opinion on the film?

I’m not trying to rail you, but it seems as if a lot of people offering their opinion haven’t seen it, nor do they understand the significance of the Brer Rabbit character to it’s original culture.

Obviously there are people who have seen the film, know the significance, don’t care, and call for it all to be thrown in the trash anyways. But I can at least give them the respect that their opinion is valid.

 

[Chi84]

If you’ve never seen the film, how can you offer an opinion on the film?

I’m not trying to rail you, but it seems as if a lot of people offering their opinion haven’t seen it, nor do they understand the significance of the Brer Rabbit character to it’s original culture.

Obviously there are people who have seen the film, know the significance, don’t care, and call for it all to be thrown in the trash anyways. But I can at least give them the respect that their opinion is valid.

I’ve never offered an opinion on the film.

I have offered an opinion on the ride.

 

[Brer Oswald]

I’ve never offered an opinion on the film.

I have offered an opinion on the ride.

Is your opinion that the ride is boring? Or that the ride needs to change because the source material is offensive?

The first is a matter of taste. If you’ve been on the ride, you can offer that opinion. The second requires you to have seen the film to form an opinion.

Perhaps you haven’t made a verbal post about that. But based on the posts you’ve liked, you seem to agree that the film is offensive and the ride needs to change.

Unless you’re just signing on to the idea for personal reasons.

 

[Chi84]

Is your opinion that the ride is boring? Or that the ride needs to change because the source material is offensive?

The first is a matter of taste. If you’ve been on the ride, you can offer that opinion. The second requires you to have seen the film to form an opinion.

Perhaps you haven’t made a verbal post about that. But based on the posts you’ve liked, you seem to agree that the film is offensive and the ride needs to change.

Unless you’re just signing on to the idea for personal reasons.

I don’t care for the current theme or characters - I never have. I’ve never offered an opinion on the film because I haven’t seen it.

I do tend to generally agree with people who oppose culturally or racially insensitive representations, so that may be why I “liked” certain posts. You shouldn’t read so much into a “like.” I haven’t seen the film and I’ve never made any comments on its content. But I believe it’s pretty obvious that Disney has a problem with it and since it’s their product, I think their opinion deserves weight.

I don’t think something has to be proven racist in order for us to do better. A more diverse, inclusive ride may be better.

 

[Brer Oswald]

I don’t care for the current theme or characters - I never have. I’ve never offered an opinion on the film because I haven’t seen it.

I do tend to generally agree with people who oppose culturally or racially insensitive representations, so that may be why I “liked” certain posts. You shouldn’t read so much into a “like.” I haven’t seen the film and I’ve never made any comments on its content. But I believe it’s pretty obvious that Disney has a problem with it and since it’s their product, I think their opinion deserves weight.

I don’t think something has to be proven racist in order for us to do better. A more diverse, inclusive ride may be better.

Then I expect you to hold Disney accountable if the replacement is anything less than a more diverse, culturally and historically relevant attraction than what exists there right now.

 

[Chi84]

Then I expect you to hold Disney accountable if the replacement is anything less than a more diverse, culturally and historically relevant attraction than what exists there right now.

Well, I never found the ride that exists there right now to be diverse or culturally and historically relevant, so it shouldn’t be too high a bar.

 

[Brer Oswald]

Well, I never found the ride that exists there right now to be diverse or culturally and historically relevant, so it shouldn’t be too high a bar.

How could you if the extent of your knowledge of the characters was the ride.

Perhaps that was the problem, and not the theme itself.

 

[Chi84]

How could you if the extent of your knowledge of the characters was the ride.

Perhaps that was the problem, and not the theme itself.

I don’t think we have a meeting of the minds here. I have never liked the characters in the ride - I don’t care where they came from or what they signify or represent. I don’t need to have any “knowledge” of them. I just don’t care for the theme. It has nothing to do with a film I never saw.

Apart from that, I appreciate companies that try to be more inclusive and diverse. Apparently (and luckily for me), Disney has decided to get rid of the outdated characters and theme I never liked and to replace it with something I hope will be inclusive and diverse. I’m in favor of this.

 

[Lensman]

I don’t think we have a meeting of the minds here. I have never liked the characters in the ride - I don’t care where they came from or what they signify or represent. I don’t need to have any “knowledge” of them. I just don’t care for the theme. It has nothing to do with a film I never saw.

Apart from that, I appreciate companies that try to be more inclusive and diverse. Apparently (and luckily for me), Disney has decided to get rid of the outdated characters and theme I never liked and to replace it with something I hope will be inclusive and diverse. I’m in favor of this.

I think you actually represent a significant fraction of the "study group," and one that I suspect is partly targeted by the re-theme. The group might be called the "indifferent" group because they are currently indifferent to the specific theming of the attraction. I'm sure Disney would like a greater majority of their customers to be enthusiastic about the theming of this major attraction.

Another issue with the attraction theming is the lack of synergy with other WDC media properties.

All this I sort-of lament because I have fond memories of the attraction and I like the cartoon shorts from the movie (which I own on LD and have seen).