Splash Mountain re-theme announced

[seabreezept813]

My thoughts exactly. That old Snow White attraction spot was prime real estate for a new PatF attraction. Then they could have had an attraction representing African American folklore AND an attraction representing their first African American princess. And, bonus, little girls could have actually ridden the dark ride in Fantasyland.

This is a fair point. With the exception of Mine Train, which is more of an in the middle ride, most princess stuff is accessible to the toddler set. My 2 year old knows Tiana well, but I’d give it at least a year or more until she could do a ride like Splash and she’s 100th percentile for height. At 1.5 she loved Under the Sea and Frozen Ever After. I could see a bigger sibling rivalry issue with a 7 year old rising Tiana but a 4 year old being too short.

 

[HoustonHorn]

Stephen King's books (and the language therein) - and the fact that he's deemed "OK" - are a great example of selective outrage / selective cancel culture.

Is that like how it's perfectly fine for the Candadian PM and Virginia governor to don blackface?

 

[Matt_Black]

I never said hate equals extreme melodrama. Hate is intentional though. You have shifted arguments.
That is not racist just because of different colors. That is just called being a jerk to fellow humans. If you claim something is racist there needs to be evidence of a bias that one race is superior to another as a motive. It can't just be the deafult.

They literally say "a woman of your.... background". Now, MAYBE they were just referencing her economic background (which is problematic in and of itself, but that's another topic).

And if anyone is shifting arguments, it's the "racism = hate" angle that got introduced.

 

[M:SpilotISTC12]

Last scene has Sarah seeming to be a working mom.

I was trying to remember from those threads but thank you for clarifying. Just too many pages to go through on a slew of different threads lol.

 

[Musical Mermaid]

Brer Fox's voice is very much like that of Eddie Murphy. Are Donkey from Shrek and Mushu from Mulan offensive stereotypes too?


For what it's worth, he's in the Disneyland version too. Dunno if that counts for anything, just thought I'd bring it up.

Is the porcupine at both too? Porcupines don’t live in the southeastern US. I don’t know where either of the rides are technically supposed to be located, maybe fictional US, it’d be nice if the imagineers told us, but it’s not the same place as the movie. I guess that’s what happens when the original Brer animals crossed paths with the animals from America Sings. Princess and the Frog however, would have to time travel to get close to Frontierland and I don’t think Tiana wants to go there.

 

[celluloid]

They literally say "a woman of your.... background". Now, MAYBE they were just referencing her economic background (which is problematic in and of itself, but that's another topic).

And if anyone is shifting arguments, it's the "racism = hate" angle that got introduced.

What would you rather call it? Lack of love? No bias is fine with honest love towards another person in their heart.
No one is saying those guys were right, but since it features that, let me ask you, should we bury that film? Kind of makes splash an even trade if you use that standpoint.

 

[orlandogal22]

Is that like how it's perfectly fine for the Candadian PM and Virginia governor to don blackface?

Yep.

I am not a fan of Megyn Kelly, but she got canned for simply asking a question.

Yet we now have Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon. Even if "excused" as "comedy," if you're going to cancel one, gotta cancel all.

One group cannot simply "apologize" the error away, yet another cannot.

 

[21stamps]

Bwahaha. I'd never heard of this and in looking it up found a thread from 2014 where someone asked if he was still on the ride. This led to someone asking why there's a roadrunner when the entire rest of the ride is Southeastern animals.

Seeing him in video, I always thought that was Mr. Bluebird.

Overall, I never found the ride to be anything that would be out of theme with the Southeast so I never thought of attempt being made to retheme it for Florida.



Glam-up change? Do you mean for the Let It Go montage? I'm not sure specifically what you mean.



Hehehehe. This is even vaguer. Listen, I don't know if you know this, but there's people taking exception with everything. If you're looking to be offended, you could find something wrong with everything. Therefore, it's nigh impossible to know exactly what you mean when you're critiquing Carousel.



They'd lost their chance. They would need to find a princess. What did you want them to do? Princess and the Frog II: Journey to a New World? There's not a whole lot of princesses in the entire hemisphere.

Unless you mean when she was tempted by Facilier. Are you criticizing her for refusing to fall for the villain's trick?

I’ll start with Tiana, as it’s by far the lighter of the two subjects. In Disney’s ‘we’re going to right 2 wrongs with 1 movie!!’’ story, we meet an ambitious girl with a life long dream of opening a restaurant. Girl falls in love, has a chance to return to achieving that dream, the one she worked and sacrificed so much for.. but decided to choose a man instead. then, a happy ending because someone else’s magic righted it. Not exactly the 2 for 1 after all. Really just the same princess story as all the ones before.


Now, CoP.
Have you ever been on it?
I’m asking this, because if you had, there is no way that you could ask ‘what could make women feel a certain way about what they’re watching?’ I can’t reconcile the 2 if you have.

Your accusation of “offended” couldn’t be more off base though.. especially not if you’ve read anything I’ve written on these pages.

I’m not offended by history. History is what it is. What’s important is to recognize it and realize we’re creating history every day. Realizing that it will continue to be created after we’re gone. What we can do, is try to have an impact on that, even by actively creating our own history, as individuals. We should appreciate the past without being defined by it. The wrongs of the past with things like skin color and gender, don’t have to linger in today., not if we refuse to be a victim to it, and refuse to perpetuate the stereotypes.


CoP is a stark reminder of a patriarchal society (for lack of a better phrase), of how women were viewed and treated. I don’t watch it and feel defeated, I watch it and feel so happy, grateful, and proud that women have come so far since. For me, personally, the title means so much more than progress in things like appliances, it means progress in society. I feel the same when I hear the song.
Tearing it down or replacing it with women in a new role would not change the history of what it was like for women at that time, all it does is hide it, which imo is a disservice to everyone. We don’t need to forget what happened in the past, take down all reminders of this country’s complicated past, banish it all to museums.. let people see, let people discuss when discussion isn’t expected. What was is not what is now. We all know that.

 

[Matt_Black]

No one is saying those guys were right, but since it features that, let me ask you, should we bury that film?

No, because the film goes on to show that that sort of think, that patronizing attitude, is wrong and harmful.

One can say that the brothers didn't even actively DO anything wrong. There was no legal documentation at that point, just a verbal agreement, and someone came along and offered them more money. The issue wasn't their actions but their motivations.

Here's another example of subtle racism. In a creative writing course, I wrote a story with teen superheroes for the class to read and critique. I had done a story with the same characters before, and I had many of the same classmates, so I did a sequel.

One of the characters in the first story was a martial artist character of Asian descent. I had initially put him in there without thinking of the implications, because that's a very common character type in popular media, which in no way excuses the stereotyping. Recognizing that, I saw that as a writing challenge to move him beyond a stereotype and make him more of a well-rounded character.

So, anyway, he gives another character some advice, in the form of a story. When finished, the second character asks if that was some kind of Buddhist parable.

"No, I read that on some girl's blog."

The class, including the teacher, HATED that line. Because it subverted the trope and stereotype that had been so ingrained into popular consciousness. The loved the character, loved his background, loved him dispensing wisdom, but they didn't like the idea that he was more than what they were expecting.

 

[celluloid]

No, because the film goes on to show that that sort of think, that patronizing attitude, is wrong and harmful.

One can say that the brothers didn't even actively DO anything wrong. There was no legal documentation at that point, just a verbal agreement, and someone came along and offered them more money. The issue wasn't their actions but their motivations.

Here's another example of subtle racism. In a creative writing course, I wrote a story with teen superheroes for the class to read and critique. I had done a story with the same characters before, and I had many of the same classmates, so I did a sequel.

One of the characters in the first story was a martial artist character of Asian descent. I had initially put him in there without thinking of the implications, because that's a very common character type in popular media, which in no way excuses the stereotyping. Recognizing that, I saw that as a writing challenge to move him beyond a stereotype and make him more of a well-rounded character.

So, anyway, he gives another character some advice, in the form of a story. When finished, the second character asks if that was some kind of Buddhist parable.

"No, I read that on some girl's blog."

The class, including the teacher, HATED that line. Because it subverted the trope and stereotype that had been so ingrained into popular consciousness. The loved the character, loved his background, loved him dispensing wisdom, but they didn't like the idea that he was more than what they were expecting.

In creative writing class you probably know one of the most important rules when workshopping.
If someone tells you something is wrong with your story, they are probably right, what they tell you to change however is probably wrong.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Yeah! A real black princess would probably face racism and economical inequality while watching her white contemporaries luxuriate in privilege. She would suffer for her dreams, leading her to get into a mindset of focus on work and forgoing recreation, camaraderie, and even love.

Unfortunately, Princess and the Frog lacked any such depth and Tiana just turned into a frog.



The reasoning isn't "Let's throw a Black girl on it to prove we're woke." Splash Mountain takes place in the American South and features a cast of singing animals. Princess and the Frog takes place in the American South and a huge chunk of the cast is, for at least a portion of the film, animals. Double whammy for it taking place in New Orleans given the Disneyland placement. The fact of the matter is that the Magic Kingdom placement of Splash Mountain has NEVER made sense and threw off the initial theming thread of going old-moden and East-West from the Mansion to Pecos Bill's. I think that Tiana being black is gravy in their minds because even if she was white the property would have been the switch that made the most sense.

Plus you just know the Mardi Gras celebration is going to take place on the big riverboat in the finale. Heck, all they have to do is put Louis on there, and it's set

 

[Kate F]

While some fans have slipped over to the “I guess I’ll just cope with it” side, I’m gonna keep sticking up for my Mountain no matter how much I get shot down. I’m not giving up.

 

[celluloid]

While some fans have slipped over to the “I guess I’ll just cope with it” side, I’m gonna keep sticking up for my Mountain no matter how much I get shot down. I’m not giving up.

Carosuel of Progress will be next anyway because of the non diverse family and if people actually do the research, the Al Jolson reference.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Even ignoring the slavery/ Reconstruction portions, the movie isn't even ABOUT Uncle Remus. His main narrative focus in the film is to make a little white kid feel better about himself. He doesn't have any goals of his own. That's a continuing trope in American fiction that has been often criticized.

I actually saw him more as a father-figure-stand-in since dad left (and don't get me started on mom!) Really, Uncle Remus and the two kids are the only people in the movie with heads put on straight.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Tiki Room portrays natives and colonialism. People say it in tweets here. AK and AKL, same reason why people hate Ringling Brothers and Seaworld. They hold animals captive. CoP because of not enough mention of women's rights and only portraying Sarah as only a house wife. Other threads on here have mentioned why but I'm trying to find the exact quotes but its too many pages. Monster's Inc singles out guests as "that guy" and poking fun at guests' expense.

You could also add Hoop De Doo and the Liberty Bell.

Sarah goes from laundry-wife to sewing-wife to refurbish-wife to computer-wife (and for all we know, she makes the money) Dad is the one that really get stereotyped going from father-the-master to father-the-master to father-the-breadwinner-master to inept-chef.

 

[Brer Panther]

Is the porcupine at both too? Porcupines don’t live in the southeastern US.

Yes, he's in both versions.

 

[21stamps]

I am not a fan of Megyn Kelly, but she got canned for simply asking a question.

The craziest is part is that while not everyone needs to or should agree with all of her views, they should respect her strength and career path. Megyn turned Roger on his head, and benefited from the mentorship given.
She is one more subject where I don’t think the bandwagon realizes what they’re hating on. They prefer victims.

 

[SilentWindODoom]

I’ll start with Tiana, as it’s by far the lighter of the two subjects. In Disney’s ‘we’re going to right 2 wrongs with 1 movie!!’’ story, we meet an ambitious girl with a life long dream of opening a restaurant. Girl falls in love, has a chance to return to achieving that dream, the one she worked and sacrificed so much for.. but decided to choose a man instead. then, a happy ending because someone else’s magic righted it. Not exactly the 2 for 1 after all. Really just the same princess story as all the ones before.

Okay. As I finished my last message with two options, and I'm still not sure which occurrence you're talking about. Funnily enough, most of the conversation has been misunderstandings and not being clear. Do you mean when she decides she doesn't want to have the man she loves marry her best friend for the money to get her restaurant? She literally tells him that she'll still work to get it. She'll still fulfill her dreams. She doesn't give up on them. She can do both.

Now, CoP.
Have you ever been on it?
I’m asking this, because if you had, there is no way that you could ask ‘what could make women feel a certain way about what they’re watching?’ I can’t reconcile the 2 if you have.

I have been. Many times. Also, I had absolutely no thoughts as to views on women being a thread through the comments because we were talking about racism and then general offensiveness. I suppose that gives more explanation to the meaning behind comments about Elsa. Although I'm still not sure about exactly what you meant by glamming up. If you mean the "Let It Go" sequence, well that's all about her... letting go and if that's how she thinks that looks or what being free means to her, I'm not going to judge.

I mostly asked what you meant by Elsa being close because I wasn't sure if you were unhappy she didn't come out. I've been of the mind that I'm happy with where she is. Ace people have a lot less heroes and heroines to look up to.

Your accusation of “offended” couldn’t be more off base though.. especially not if you’ve read anything I’ve written on these pages.

I’m not offended by history. History is what it is. What’s important is to recognize it and realize we’re creating history every day. Realizing that it will continue to be created after we’re gone. What we can do, is try to have an impact on that, even by actively creating our own history, as individuals. We should appreciate the past without being defined by it. The wrongs of the past with things like skin color and gender, don’t have to linger in today., not if we refuse to be a victim to it, and refuse to perpetuate the stereotypes.

Heh. I read a lot today, and despite your first response to me seeming to paint me as the opposite, I wholeheartedly am on the same page as you with a lot of things. The language echoing something said early was meant to try to make that clear. People have spent the last ten pages listing small things that people could cancel Carousel over. I was shocked after all that talk you referred to Carousel as "stomach-churning". But I was completely in the dark, so as far as I knew it was the outdated final scene.

CoP is a stark reminder of a patriarchal society (for lack of a better phrase), of how women were viewed and treated. I don’t watch it and feel defeated, I watch it and feel so happy, grateful, and proud that women have come so far since. For me, personally, the title means so much more than progress in things like appliances, it means progress in society. I feel the same when I hear the song.

Tearing it down or replacing it with women in a new role would not change the history of what it was like for women at that time, all it does is hide it, which imo is a disservice to everyone. We don’t need to forget what happened in the past, take down all reminders of this country’s complicated past, banish it all to museums.. let people see, let people discuss when discussion isn’t expected. What was is not what is now. We all know that.

Of course, it's been so long I don't remember every part. You're right, though. Making it different now to make it less historically accurate but more inclusive would be insulting.

Also, I feel like the conversation would have all made sense if I knew you were a woman before reading this post. I honestly just pictured you as MJ.

Jeez, there's low hanging fruit there.

 

[Magenta Panther]

Yeah, you sure showed me Mr. Keyboard Warrior. I definitely learned my lesson on not to cross the end-all be-all of forum opinion, Magenta Panther, who is literally a running joke on twitter.

Since you seem to frequent that haven for humorless, self-righteous thumbsuckers, DO let those nitTwits know that I'm devastated, absolutely devastated, by their opinions of me.

 

[Kate F]

What’s actually offensive:

WDW’s Splash Mountain in particular is an icon and a masterpiece of Imagineering. I think the complete disregard for all of Splash Mountain’s great qualities in favor of the few bits that might be considered “problematic” is offensive.