Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts Tres

Status
Not open for further replies.
articos

articos

Well-Known Member
WDW1974 said:
I don't have a great deal to add, but I just had a lengthy conversation with someone I deeply trust and I do believe that Niles, indeed, likely has the right story and that much of what you've come to know as TPKaTD-MGMS (which likely will get a new name -- or should -- again to reflect what the park will look like come late this decade) will not exist much past next year or 2015.

I would not be comfortable with any further specifics, but I will say that anything that basically was in the production side of the original park will likely not exist in any form. Hollywood Blvd and Sunset Blvd and the Chinese Theater will all remain as will TSMM (naturally) but beyond that ...?

Three other notes:

1.) This will be the end of the Ozzy and Sharon Holiday Lightacular (almost certainly on a permanent basis) and that may well lead to lower holiday visitation to WDW as a whole;
2.) By the time most work is underway, prices will have increased another few times and look for the Studios and DAK to be priced lower than MK AND EPCOT to reflect the fact that both parks figure to take hits from the construction;
3.) This was leaked to take a hit at the D23 Expo;
Click to expand...
Yup, expect the park to get a sort-of new name.
 
articos

articos

Well-Known Member
WDW1974 said:
I can concur with all the above except (sadly) Muppets ... right now, it appears they will be making way for something else in that facility. I can only caution that things can be subject to change, but I wouldn't be saying it if I didn't have strong conviction that it was happening. BTW, if it does leave, it's the only thing I'll actually miss as the park is a mess and they need to finally fix it and rebrand it.
Click to expand...

I didn't say anything specific about the facility. ;)
 
P

pheneix

Well-Known Member
WDW1974 said:
I can concur with all the above except (sadly) Muppets ... right now, it appears they will be making way for something else in that facility. I can only caution that things can be subject to change, but I wouldn't be saying it if I didn't have strong conviction that it was happening. BTW, if it does leave, it's the only thing I'll actually miss as the park is a mess and they need to finally fix it and rebrand it.
Click to expand...

The exact roster of what stays and what goes will be a source of confusion for a while because nothing is ever really "official" at WDI/WDPR anymore. Especially in a corporate culture where all employees at all levels of administration are more concerned with self preservation and not being laid off rather than working towards common goals to strengthen a business. Which leads me to:

WDW1974 said:
I believe that is why Al and Dusty and Co at Miceage reported that the Monsters coaster/Monstropolis redo at DCA plus the T-Land redo and E-Ticket are being fast-tracked.

I do NOT have confirmation on them, but believe the info ... TDA isn't going to make the same mistake that TDO makes over and over and over and over and over .... again.
Click to expand...

The only conclusion one can draw from the evidence presented is that Universal has single handedly forced Disney to pivot away a bit from its Blue Ocean business strategy and compete with Universal on Universal's terms. This is usually where someone can say "that's awesome because the consumer WINS" yada yada but Disney is not an organization that gives a rip about providing value for money. Disney is also an organization loaded with selfish, untalented, unethical managers, again, at all levels of administration with quite an infestation built up on the creative side at WDI as well. Critical thought and adaptation to different marketplaces are not talents that Disney managers and executives excel at. This is not going to end well for them.
 
P

pheneix

Well-Known Member
articos said:
If you remember, a few months back it was stated parades were being killed? It was also thought there was some back of house support buildings that went along with that were being moved around. All true...
Click to expand...

If you look at the park from Google Maps at the right angle, you can kinda guess what is slated to go and what is going to stay. It's like you can draw a line through it....
 
P

pheneix

Well-Known Member
articos said:
Yup, I commented on this post a few weeks ago. Not all that off.
Click to expand...

Ah that's a scenario where its a little easier to see where Muppets may have a presence in the new park at their existing home. Still, I know long discussions were had about whether or not it was worth keeping the Mama Melrose kitchen and using it in a new venue, and dark Tatooine alleyways and a seedy Mos Eisley Cantina do not leave a lot of room for Muppets less than 200 meters away. Which then lead to "hey, while we're copying ideas over from France anyway" logic being applied to the Muppetvision venue.

But hell, if they are going after Indy and the backstage support buildings, they can have their cake and eat it too.
 
PhotoDave219

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
GoofGoof said:
Just a theory, but maybe they floated the rumor on purpose to gauge public reaction. Or there could be an internal Cars vs Star Wars difference of opinion. The Star Wars camp throws this out there to show how popular it would be. If 74 is correct and nothing concrete has been decided yet the overwhelming fan reaction to Star Wars could push it over the top...or is that just wishful thinking?
Click to expand...


I like that theory but if you're trying to gage popularity of Star Wars, sheesh.... look at the success of SWW & the property has been going strong since 1977.
 
ChrisFL

ChrisFL

Premium Member
WDW1974 said:
I do too. In many ways, it is the perfect location to visit both TDR and Tokyo for the first time as an American and feel quite comfortable ...

Have you been to Tokyo recently?
Click to expand...

I was there just over a year ago...I hope to go back either in October or early next year
 
B

Bolna

Well-Known Member
WDW1974 said:
1.) This will be the end of the Ozzy and Sharon Holiday Lightacular (almost certainly on a permanent basis) and that may well lead to lower holiday visitation to WDW as a whole;
Click to expand...

:eek: Need to plan trip to WDW for the Holiday season this year or next it seems!!! I have never been there in that time frame and kind of expected the lights be around for ever because they are so popular!!!
 
ParentsOf4

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
pheneix said:
Ah, but that is running on the assumption that Universal will not be maintaining this level of spending after Diagon Alley opens next summer. To be honest with you, given Universal Orlando's history, it is very safe to want to make that assumption.

That is however not the case, and rumors about Toon Lagoon at IOA getting flat earth'd to make way for entirely new IP and attractions are starting to spread as openly as these DHS rumors are. The truth is, Universal does have a major five-year plan set into motion and they will not be letting off the gas in 2015. Or 2016. Maybe 2017, but almost certainly not 2018.

By then Universal will have picked off two days of the typical one week Orlando visit, and Disney is never getting those days back in their entirety to matter what they build. They dropped the ball for too long. Additionally, WDW's choice to focus their resources on two of the four parks in their portfolio will make it easier for guests to consolidate time spent at MK/Epcot to make way for new offerings at the other parks, which as I stated in an earlier post, are already well on their way to being forgotten in 2014.

These Magic Kingdom parks are not impenetrable fortresses that will always draw 10 million guests a year over rival parks no matter what. The month Cars Land opened at DLR, the relationship between DCA and Disneyland almost became one of equals. The same for Tokyo Disney Resort after Tokyo DisneySea opened. People go where they perceive they will get the most for their money. For decades in Orlando, Magic Kingdom has enjoyed that perception because the reality outside more or reflected that. But Universal Orlando has brought those days to an end.
Click to expand...
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm a Uni AP holder and have been to Uni perhaps 20 days in the last 12 months vs. 2 days at WDW. I think Uni is great but, in the end, Uni cannot touch the Magic Kingdom. The general public is simply in love with Disneyland-style theme parks.

From a "true fan" perspective, the last 5 years have been dreadful at WDW and terrific at Uni. Yet even with that recent history, WDW still dominates the World when it comes to theme parks. Combined, the Magic Kingdom along with the moribund Epcot, DAK, and DHS still managed to draw over 48M, an average of over 12M per theme park. People are not flocking to WDW for the dreadful Epcot, DAK, and DHS. WDW's numbers are all about MK with its 17M plus guests, #1 in the World. The DL template dominates theme park attendance with MK, DL, TDL, and DLP being 4 of the top 5 theme parks in the World, with Tokyo DisneySea rounding out the top 5. TWDC continues to take financial advantage of the pattern created by Walt over 50 years ago.

Even with its recent renaissance, IOA still draws less than 8M, 2M behind WDW's weakest parks. USF is an also-ran at about 6M. Clearly it's not because DHS or DAK are so much better, it's that MK simply dominates and other theme parks benefit from that dominance.

Now we are talking about a complete DHS redo. Think about what just happened at DLR. As Iger has indicated, the daily ratio went from about 75%/25% to 55%/45% with DL still coming in at almost 16M. Anchored by MK and with new Pixar and Star Wars lands, even a weak park like DHS could jump from 9.9M to north of 13M. Both IPs are at least as strong as HP. I'd argue SW is even stronger, with multigenerational support. Just visit your local Toys R Us or Game Stop and compare SW vs. HP merchandise.

Can TWDC screw it up? Sure. TDO in particular has tripped over its feet more than once lately. But corporate is now taking this seriously. Corporate has seen what has and has not worked in recent years and is not going to leave it in the hands of TDO this time. The money's too big and they're not oblivious to what's happening at Uni.

As a Uni AP holder, I greatly am looking forward to the Jurassic Park expansion, to the redo of Toon Lagoon, to the leveling for Fear Factor, to the rebirth of Kidzone. But even with all these projects and more, no matter how wonderful they are, they are not going to allow Uni to ever come close to MK's numbers. Even an idle WDW continued to dominate Orlando attendance in 2010-2012. Looking to the future with DHS getting two of Disney's most popular properties, Uni will once again be forced into the position of appealing to locals and picking off a day or two from pixiedusters headed to WDW.

Until Universal comes up with its own version of Disneyland, it will always trail Disney Theme Parks. Bringing children ages 3-to-12 to Disneyland-style theme parks remains a rite of passage for most families. Until Universal figures out a way to reach that iconic status, it will always trail Disney.
 
P

pheneix

Well-Known Member
Parentsof4, I respect you, but the attendance reports you cite are works of pure fantasy. Comedic even. That's not your fault, you didn't make them up. But I do urge you to use some judgement before trusting numbers that project WDW's parks operating at or near capacity every day 365 days of the year. I mean, like I said, no disrespect, but if TEA amusement estimates are being cited as a source, one might as well make up their own best guess and use that.

If the numbers you cited were real, Disney would not be putting this kind of money into Hollywood Studios. That would be trying to solve a problem that didn't exist.
 
articos

articos

Well-Known Member
pheneix said:
Ah that's a scenario where its a little easier to see where Muppets may have a presence in the new park at their existing home. Still, I know long discussions were had about whether or not it was worth keeping the Mama Melrose kitchen and using it in a new venue, and dark Tatooine alleyways and a seedy Mos Eisley Cantina do not leave a lot of room for Muppets less than 200 meters away. Which then lead to "hey, while we're copying ideas over from France anyway" logic being applied to the Muppetvision venue.

But hell, if they are going after Indy and the backstage support buildings, they can have their cake and eat it too.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of creative to do yet. I'm not saying that drawing is completely accurate, but...pretty good for a guess in the dark, which is why I noticed it. If I were to get speculative, which I will preface by saying that none of the following is based on official anything...but the best way to think about it is from a value perspective based on what's already there. Muppet is still a family friendly, wide demo popular IP and makes tons of money, and there's quite a bit in the pipeline for the Muppets both film and tv, as well as popular consumer products. Even if MuppetVision is ancient, they want Muppets in the park. Cheapest solution: do a new MuppetVision/Muppet attraction in the same space and retheme the Star Tours facing side to something that links. If they do a dark Tatooine alleyway, that could face onto a dark Muppet Movie alleyway that transitions. (Not a real thing, just an example of how they could connect.) Or just leave it as is - they don't need to do anything, as they're already side by side and do ok. They could repurpose the buildings and/or space and drop Muppets, which has been discussed, but it doesn't make sense. The Muppet space at DHS has an identity - why tear that down? I can honestly say no one knows yet what will happen here, though. It's still early, and could go another way. I'm saying as of right now, Muppets are staying, although the attraction may not be the same one or in the same place. That could change.

The Idol/Sound Studio building is a theater that will be without a purpose soon enough, and it's in the right spot. Wonder what could go there, Luke, I mean, @pheneix? And then on top of that, there's a ton of space right by ST that's usable or being freed up, for f&b and...

Did someone mention cake? :)
 
ParentsOf4

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
pheneix said:
Parentsof4, I respect you, but the attendance reports you cite are works of pure fantasy. Comedic even. That's not your fault, you didn't make them up. But I do urge you to use some judgement before trusting numbers that project WDW's parks operating at or near capacity every day 365 days of the year.

If the numbers you cited were real, Disney would not be putting this kind of money into Hollywood Studios. That would be trying to solve a problem that didn't exist.
Click to expand...
We're going to have fun!:)

If you have better numbers, I'd greatly appreciate them. Until then, I'll use numbers from a reputable source over "gut feel" of how crowded the parks are. Certainly people loved citing those numbers when IOA attendance jumped 66% in 2 years.

As far as capacity, I thought MK's capacity was around 75,000. (Anyone have a better number?) Of course, that doesn't include early arrivals leaving early and late arrivals being let in late. If the number is approximately correct, then MK's annual capacity should be at least 27M visitors. At 18M, it seems to me they have room to spare.:)

Having been to Uni about 20 days in the last 12 months, I can state that, on the days I was there (including peak Summer, Thanksgiving, and Easter), except for WWOHP, USF and IOA did not "feel" particularly crowded. Also based on my own "feel", Uni was a ghost town in 2008 and 2009. My local Six Flags felt more crowded than Uni did most days in 2008 and 2009. Uni had nowhere to go but up in 2010.

Let's not forget all the folks on these threads complaining how crowded WDW has become recently. They "feel" WDW is more crowded than ever.

As for real numbers, I'll use WDW's official numbers from the 1970's and 1980's as a baseline, when they still published them:

- 1972: 10,713,000
- 1973: 11,593,000
- 1974: 10,834,000
- 1975: 12,515,000
- 1976: 13,100,000
- 1977: 13,100,000
- 1978: 14,100,000
- 1979: 13,792,000
- 1980: 13,783,000
- 1981: 13,221,000
- 1982: 12,560,000
- 1983: 22,712,000
- 1984: 21,120,000

Having been to WDW for a lot of those years, I can state that my "feeling" is that the Magic Kingdom and Epcot are much more crowded today than they were in those years.

As for management investing in its own product, only foolish management doesn't invest in its product, something TDO has been guilty of in recent years. It's been 15 years since the last major expansion at WDW. (I'm one of those who consider the "New" Fantasyland to be something of a joke. My family was done with it in less than 2 hours, much of that time being spent standing in line for lunch at BOG.) WDW used to add entire theme parks less than a decade apart. WDW is long overdue for a major capital investment.

Alternatively, using an argument similar to your "If the numbers you cited were real, Disney would not be putting this kind of money into Hollywood Studios" line of thinking, I'll counter with: if a problem did not exist at Universal, Comcast would not be putting this kind of money into Universal Orlando. On a percent basis of investment vs. asset, I suspect the amount of money being pumped into Uni will far exceed the amount of money being pumped into WDW. Using your line of reasoning, that must mean Universal is in really bad shape right now.;)

I will be renewing my Uni AP, the same way the Spirit keeps renewing his WDW AP despite that resort's many problems.:p

Your turn.:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom