Spirited News & Observations II -- NGE/Baxter

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
There are numerous studies that I could cite to support this statement. One of the most powerful ones are studies that show over and over again, that the most memorable experience children have on average is the hotel pool. Not attractions, not characters, not dinner shows... but the hotel pool.

As you have noticed Disney has used this and perfected it over the years, which the new Finding Nemo pool area at the Art of Animation, which perfectly marries Disney's iconic IP that they own, which an incredibly memorable pool area.

We call this the Christmas morning box theory.

But it is quite true with many children. Yet, folks can take their kids to the local Holiday Inn for a long weekend and save a whole lotta $$$.

Without the parks, there is no reason for anything to exist in the swamps. Let alone themed resorts with beautiful swimming pools!
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
We still have no official or classy response to Tony's 'resignation' by the company he worked for for 47.5 years. But apparently the loss didn't upset Eric Jacobson that much. You'll recall that last fall at IAAPA, Jacobson (the portfolio leader for most of WDW with the exception of DAK) struggled during a panel discussion with a question on what makes an attraction fit for MK vs. EPCOT ... and Tony had to jump in. And that Tony practically spit his disdain for Imagination to the audience. None of that sat well with Glendale and Tony (rightly in my opinion) didn't give a damn.

Will we ever know?
I find it upsetting. No, i find it outrageous. Tony deserves better respect from a place he poured his heart and soul into for most of his lifetime.

Personally i was both stunned and delighted with that incident mentioned....the IAAPA appearance. For years some fans have been wanting to hear Tony express his opinions on the atrocity that is now being passed off as a Pavillion about Imagination. He finally did, and in just one sentence he perfectly cut to the point and summed up what many have felt for years now. Major kudos for having the balls to speak his mind at such a public event...and let his voice be heard. The respect i had for him went up another level after that.

Okay, so maybe in the politics of things, it might not have been the most brilliant move to make..but like you said Spirit, he really just did not give a damn at that point. Bless him.
 

EPCOTCenterLover

Well-Known Member
As I might have mentioned, I was just at DLP. I just LOVE the fact that Tony's masterpiece attraction, Big Thunder Mountain Railroad sits on the island space in Frontierland. That gem won't be going anywhere- and is a great testimony to his talent. I'd even dare to say that DLP's version of this attraction is better than Expedition:Everest!
 

Genie of the Lamp

Well-Known Member
As I might have mentioned, I was just at DLP. I just LOVE the fact that Tony's masterpiece attraction, Big Thunder Mountain Railroad sits on the island space in Frontierland. That gem won't be going anywhere- and is a great testimony to his talent. I'd even dare to say that DLP's version of this attraction is better than Expedition:Everest!

Did you get a chance to see Dreams at all? Now that along with BTM are strong reasons to visit DLP!
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I hear ya !

Reminds me of someone i met briefly while out at a small family breakfast spot the other morning...
I admitted to being a fan of the Parks, and was introduced to a 20-something young girl who was presented to me as being a ' big fan' and 'knew everything about Disney'.
So we start talking shop, and it is clear this 20-something only knows 'modern Disney'...and nothing about 'classic/original Disney'. Disney only exsists for her in the 1990s. I was a little surprised....as usually a fan of that magnitude knows at least the basics about the company, characters, and concepts. So she was one of the 'new generation' Disney fans. Clueless as to the legacy of the concept, and only aware of the few recent projects.

So i would imagine people like her are the vast majority now packing the Parks...and pay no mind to the surroundings really. For them, it is just the thrill of being 'at Disney' and they have nothing to compare quality with.

A pity really, but i guess that is a sign of me getting old
I remember, and although i can accept some changes as being needed to keep things going, a lot of the changes are just shallow cop outs and money scrimping.

I soooo hear ya.

As much as some fanbois seem to want to ride my monorail ( I don't even know what that means!), I'd much rather take them for a ride in my time machine back to say ... 1983 or even 1993 and let them see what REAL Disney quality was. And how much of a lesser product Disney is offering today as vastly higher price points.

I'm sorry, but if you weren't born when Reagan was President or prior, then I'd suggest you don't have a really good grasp on what WDW was all about.

There was WDW from 1971-1984 ... and WDW from 1984-1996 ... and WDW since ...
 

Genie of the Lamp

Well-Known Member
I vividly remember going in 96 with the castle decorated like a bday cake and riding on Splash Mountain for the first time then. I also kinda remember that Mickey's Toontown fair had just opened and it was like Magic for me then being a little 3 year old.
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
I soooo hear ya.

As much as some fanbois seem to want to ride my monorail ( I don't even know what that means!), I'd much rather take them for a ride in my time machine back to say ... 1983 or even 1993 and let them see what REAL Disney quality was.

Whoa...they want to *ride your monorail*...?
(blushes)
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Here's my question for those in-the-know:

Why was Baxter so hated in the halls of WDI?

Just as some pixie-dust snorters are accused of being blind to the problems at TDO, I know its easy to put Baxter on a pedestal. There's no denying he was and is a brilliant Imagineer. But it seems too simplistic to cast Baxter as the white knight who was shunned by the evil lords in Glendale and Burbank who didn't appreciate his talent.

Why did Baxter rub others the wrong way? Was he an outspoken Prima Donna that came across as negative or old-fashioned even if his heart was in the right place? Did others feel threatened by him and try to sabotage his career so they could rise above him? Did he try to sabotage others' careers that he didn't think fit his vision for Imagineering?

A politician can have great ideas, but if he can't work with Congress nothing gets done. Why wasn't Baxter able to work with the rest of WDI?

Oh, this is a great question. And it isn't easy to answer.

Tony was a GREAT Imagineer, a great CM, a great ambassador for the BRAND.

What he was also was a great self-promoter and great at going around the politcians in Glendale right to the powers in Burbank. He was outspoken. (I have a post on his feelings toward NGE waiting, but am not posting it until I get more info.)

Unfortunately, his talent exceeded his ability to play politics. And like most very talented artists, yes, Tony certainly could play Prima Donna and did from time to time.

I could go over his history with the company, but you can find that elsewhere. But what you have to grasp is Tony was the driving force behind the amazing Euro Disney, which opened as a creative success and to big crowds (it immediately became the top tourist attraction in Europe) but was blamed when folks didn't fill up the hotels or buy the same amount of Mickey plush and ears that Americans did. None of that was his doing.

His next major project was T-land'98 and that was a disaster from the start. First, they nixed the pricey and ambitious T-land 2055 concept for basically doing the land over in a DLP Discoverland-esque way and then they made the huge mistake of attempting to put a thrill ride on the Peoplemover infrastructure for way too little $$$. And when GM pulled out of a sponsorship deal at the 11th hour, Tony wasn't given funds to make up tae difference.

On the heels of Light Magic, which was a disaster he had nothing to do with, it was enough to get the DLR portfolio taken away from him and handed to the human disaster that is Barry Braverman. I know they wanted to fire Tony around 2000, when he was desperately telling people what a disaster DCA was going to be. I have heard rumours that he threatened them with legal action and they backed down opting to hope to bore him out of his job.

While he is quite well-liked by a small group, his personality definitely grates on some. I think the man is wonderful, but he'd take credit for creating DL if he could. He certainly didn't have fans in Glendale to push for him as the century turned. So, he wound up what in essence was a purgatory. Most of the other portfolio leaders couldnt stand him (especially Tom Fitzgerald and Eric Jacobson) and others (like the two Joes) opted to stay as far away from him and his situation as they could.

Tony felt if he could hang on eventually change would come and he'd wind up able to help lead a return to the 'old ways' at WDI. First, he hoped that change would be Iger. Then, he thought it would be Lasseter. Finally, he realized he might be 108 before the type of change he'd need would happen.

I do feel that Marty really let him down years ago and should have fought for him, but he was at the stage of his tenure where he just didn't want to be shown the door either.
 

MattM

Well-Known Member
Just a few notes while they're on my mind and with limited time likely tonight:

Folks who point out that Iger is simply doing what any savvy businessman/investor would do are simply missing the most important point: namely that Iger is running the company and is an incredibly wealthy man. He doesn't need to cash out, and one who has faith in the direction of the company would not be so fast to cash in as soon as the shares are vested. They'd realize that not only does it look bad (like he's cashing out because he doesn't have the faith that more $$$ will be made down the road), but that it is worrisome because he knows things the rest of us do not.

Well, I'm not sure how many people on this board are in a position to say he has enough wealth and doesn't need to cash out. Again, I respectfully disagree that a CEO wouldn't trim positions in his company when he has taken a 45%...yes, 45% gain in that position. Where else are you going to get a return like that? Owning roughly 1.25 million shares of a company is no small holding, and I don't think someone would hang on to that many shares if he truly believed the ship was taking on water.

You know I agree with you on most things, but I think this point may be a little off.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Oh, this is a great question. And it isn't easy to answer...

Okay, that post right there answers so many of my questions, or sheds light on the backstory I'd been looking for, that I feel I owe you a drink WDW1974. How about a Carthay Manhattan with the nifty ice sphere?

Thank you for that information, it's most enlightening for those of us trying to follow along here in the peanut gallery. :)
 

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
I do feel that Marty really let him down years ago and should have fought for him, but he was at the stage of his tenure where he just didn't want to be shown the door either.

Great post, Spirit...this last comment in particular sparks my curiosity.

Someone refresh my memory...what happened between Marty and Tony?
 

disney fan 13

Well-Known Member
I vividly remember going in 96 with the castle decorated like a bday cake and riding on Splash Mountain for the first time then. I also kinda remember that Mickey's Toontown fair had just opened and it was like Magic for me then being a little 3 year old.

My first trip was in 94 to Epcot suprisingly, I remember walking through WOL, riding the Monorail, and riding JOI and Horizons also i sorta remember playing in Imageworks ( or at least I think I did for the last one...) All I remember...
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
Tony felt if he could hang on eventually change would come and he'd wind up able to help lead a return to the 'old ways' at WDI. First, he hoped that change would be Iger. Then, he thought it would be Lasseter. Finally, he realized he might be 108 before the type of change he'd need would happen.
In all honesty, Do you think it's possible that the change Tony was hoping for will eventually come or is the future of the Company completely doomed? In essence how screwed are we?
 

Winnie the Poop

New Member
Most of the leadership in Glendale, like Tom Fitzgerald, basically view their jobs as, well, jobs. Something to do to earn money that you spend way far away from all things Disney.

Unlike Tony, they themselves are not fans. They love the devotion of the fans as it translates into money being spent in the parks so their Imagineering employment continues merrily on. But they wouldn't be caught dead in the parks in their off-time as visitors, rubbing elbows with the unwashed masses they readily look down their noses upon. They're better than that, don't you know. :rolleyes:

You're ridiculously wrong about that. Of course Imagineers are fans-- or else they wouldn't have this job. They do spend personal time in the parks, enjoying themselves. I love your authoritative tone that's based on pure fantasy.


Well said.
That is indeed truly sad then if he was having to be treated like this.
[Most of the leadership in Glendale, like Tom Fitzgerald] are really in the wrong occupation then if they have attitudes towards their work like this.
Completely wrong career...they should go into accounting instead.

Tony has a real PASSION for what he is doing, what he is creating, and is a fan of the Theme Park concept to boot. When you have that kind of passion, it is indeed difficult for other people of such short sighted nature to really understand. They just do not *get it*...and never will.

Are you for real? Do you really know Tony and the other senior Imagineering team so well that you can say this with confidence?

Or are you just making a guess because you get to be a big shot and your story fits the narrative you've adopted?

So many theories and angry rants about Disney management, so little actual experience with what's going on internally... I suggest we go easy on people, because remember, everyone in the world is fighting their own battles. That means you, that means me, that means the execs at Disney who are going what they think is right. Fitzgerald, Rohde and others aren't the monsters they seem to be made out to be. Baxter isn't a saint who has a golden touch. It's amazing to read the vitrol, hyperbole, hosannas and sheer imagination on this board when so little of it is grounded in reality. I understand being a fan and watching (and enjoying, and discussing) things from the sidelines. But don't just invent stuff out of thin air.
 

artvandelay

Well-Known Member
DVC fits in with the Blue Ocean theory. Disney has sold hundreds of thousands of people 50 years of hotel stays on property. They are a locked in audience. No need to compete to keep them coming back, they've paid for their trips in advance. Perhaps when Disney sees DVC members straying off property in greater numbers, they'll wake up.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
My first trip was in 94 to Epcot suprisingly, I remember walking through WOL, riding the Monorail, and riding JOI and Horizons also i sorta remember playing in Imageworks ( or at least I think I did for the last one...) All I remember...
When I first saw EPCOT Ctr. in full, I was about 38 years old. I was there in February 1983, it was 4 months old and to be honest is was a little disheveled and unorganized. (unless both those words mean the same thing) :D

When I went two years later, I saw them all. The only one I'm not sure of is The Seas. It seems like I remember it from that trip, hydrolaters and all, but I'm too lazy right now to look it up. I was the quintessential Disney tourist back then. I didn't know there was a ride in SSE. I didn't know what was there (pre-internet) and what it was all about, so in the Land, I didn't see the Food show, don't remember the name (first one, Kitchen Kabaret maybe?) because I didn't even know it was there. On the other side of the park I did go to SSE (Walter Cronkite edition), Energy, Wonders of Life (didn't know about Cranium Command then either), Horizons, and World of Motion. In Imagination I rode the ride along with Dreamfinder and Figment and saw that atrocity called Captain EO.

I truly didn't appreciate what I saw on that trip until I think about what is there now and I understand the quality and talent it took to design and build that park. Those are the things that made EPCOT what it was. As I think back at it, I think that pretty much everything with the exception of the original Energy Pavilion would be totally relevant today and would still work. Omnimovers were our friends and it was that something that you didn't find anyplace else.

I apologize for possible mistaken names and possible mistaken memories, it was a long damn time ago.
 

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