Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

flynnibus

Premium Member
Do you consider the $200 million that Universal spent on WWOHP part of this race to the bottom?

HP was not part of a tit for tat race of trying to keep adding attractions in an endless cycle to draw guests back. Neither is HP v2. WWOHP really isn't relevant to the 'race to the bottom' discussion because it's not part of a uncontrolled cycle of addition.

HP was about a value addition to USO they believed would pay off... it did, and along with new management, have decided to invest in the parks.

I never said 'dont build attractions' - I'm saying there is more to the park that the company does, and must, spend on to be attractive to guests. AND you can't just keep adding attractions blindly and endlessly in an attempt to counter the news of someone else. It's unsustainable because every attraction you add, not only has enourmous up front costs, it increases your operational costs. It must be done in controlled ways else you will outspend your ability to recoup the costs (The Six Flags model).


However, I do not trust the management of Disney to derive anything beneficial to the guest from this system. This was designed from the outset to be a BUSINESS PROCESS TOOL

Based on what information? The information as everyone knows NextGen started as a technology initiative in the parks within engineering - not within the ops buildings of park management. The project from the get-go has been about how new technologies could be integrated into the parks. This lead to earlier outputs like enchanted art, the talking characters, and more. This has always been bigger than the RFID based projects.

Your logic is that somehow spending $2b dollars on tangible additions would not have been as valuable as the money spent on NextGen. I agree, but the fact is that the benefactor will be TWDC and not the guest.

The guests have already been benefiting from additions from the project.. it's just everyone wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater because the RFID aspects are what's rolling out next.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
By sending you discounts and offers via their sponsors based on what you do while at WDW.

Driving by a GM/Chevy Dealership after your trip to WDW? Your smartphone and/or email will get offers sent from those friendly sponsors of Test Track (and other sponsors). Rode test track quite a few times on your trip? Instagrammed it? Tweeted to Disney about it? You'll love the special offer they give you by offering you a free test drive of one their Chevy cars for a few hours at your local dealership and then they'll deposit more Fastpass+ credits into your account so that you can remain brand-loyal when you visit WDW again.
That still won't make me buy what I don't want, will it? Is there some magical force that is emitted that will stop me from making my own decisions about things?
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
It can offer lots of things that will have a positive impact on guest experience..

  • If I don't have to wait an hour for a fireworks place.. that's a benefit to me
  • If they are going to offer order ahead.. even if you don't want that service, that means they'll likely post their menus online and you can't get it direct from disney (updated) rather than relying on 3rd party sites
  • The idea that I can see return times and wait times on my smartphone is a benefit (this too was part of nextgen build up)
  • The idea I can check FP/FP+ availability without having to cross the park to figure out is a benefit
  • The idea I will have kiosks in the park I can check dining availability (as well as via my devices) is a benefit
  • The potential for services like people locating would be a benefit
  • The potential for improvement in services by knowing actual crowd loads (like bus stops) would be a benefit
  • The potential for new show integration (just because you may not enjoy it doesn't mean all guests won't)
  • etc etc

How can you argue any of those are NOT positives for the guest? The reality is people are taking the things they perceive as negative and throw out all the positive because of the negative.. and then argue there is nothing in it for the guests. Well certainly not if you've cleared the table of anything positive because you had something you saw as a negative first...

Well, taking them one at a time...

-How many reserved spots will there be for watching fireworks? and will I have to give up a FP for Space Mountain to get that spot? And will I have to decide 3 months in advance that I want to spend all night in the MK to watch those fireworks?
-Online menus? At this point, not having online menus is a joke. I don't see how NextGen has any impact on that. It was going to have to happen. Regardless.
-Access to mobile wait times. A nice feature, no doubt. Not really a part of the major body of NextGen though.
-In park Kiosks to check dining is a benefit? How? Is it easier then calling? Is it easier then checking online?
-Now you are into potentials, and I can list piles of potential negatives to counter point these. Potential benefits are not interesting to me.

I am not throwing out positives. I am searching for them. I just don't see the guest benefits in this. Billions of dollars spent, and the main impacts are more planning for me, and TDO gets to track me easier.

As an aside, I was telling my less Disney involved family members about this, and their immediate reactions were overwhelmingly negative. This whole thing comes off as terribly invasive, and really does not offer any kind of benefits that would balance that out. Even my wife, who has been trying to convince me to spend some time in Disney Parks this April has changed her tune on that. We do not want the added headache of so much planning.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And you'd still be comparing apples to oranges.

I was specifically posting about taking the existing FP system and turning it into FP+. It's the equivalent of taking the only restaurant inside a large hotel with a 13-year long policy of "first come, first served" and switching to 75% reserved seating only. FP currently is a "first come, first served" distribution process. It won't be after FP+ is available.

FP has only been 'level' if you were willing to tour like most optimized people do.. already compromising what YOUR choice may be.

Not a morning person? Screwed
A local that only comes after work? Screwed
You don't like to criss-cross the park? Screwed
Oh you didn't know you could ignore the end-time? Screwed by your neighbors who did know that and could game the system to their advantage
Oh you don't want to hit DCA by 8:30 in the morning and stand in a 40min line for RSR FPs? Screwed

The only thing fair about the system was it was 'first come, first serve' and free. It was never a level playing field because it demanded people conform to a specific model.. one many could not, or would not comply with.

That's how the current level playing field of FP acquisition will cease to be level. None of your examples feature level playing fields

Of course they don't - that was the point.. and debunking's Lee's concern that the parks no longer offer a level playing field. They haven't for a long time and those were examples of that.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
The project from the get-go has been about how new technologies could be integrated into the parks. This lead to earlier outputs like enchanted art, the talking characters, and more. This has always been bigger than the RFID based projects.

Nope. Sorry. Nick Franklin was getting the boot from the company and convinced JR it was good way to siphon more spending out of its customers guests inventory. TWDC has had patents predating this push for talking characters and the living character initiative, etc. This has always about how to better plan how much in park staff they need on a day to day basis as well as siphon more money away from consumers.

If it was called the Project Rumpelstiltskin, would it still have the same desired effect or would people even get the reference. Oh well..

P.S. What benefits of Project Next Gen are customers benefiting from?
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
That still won't make me buy what I don't want, will it? Is there some magical force that is emitted that will stop me from making my own decisions about things?

There are lots of tricks retailers and marketers use to get your to buy things you might not have bought without those tricks. Might not work on you personally, but it works on a lot of people. Friendly's sends us coupons a couple times a year for buy one get one free ice cream sundaes. I guarantee you that I would not be buying as many of these if I didn't get those coupons.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
There are lots of tricks retailers and marketers use to get your to buy things you might not have bought without those tricks. Might not work on you personally, but it works on a lot of people. Friendly's sends us coupons a couple times a year for buy one get one free ice cream sundaes. I guarantee you that I would not be buying as many of these if I didn't get those coupons.
I'd be happy if we even had a Friendly's around here.
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
No - I'm simply debunking this theory that everyone has equal opportunity in the parks.. and this new stuff takes it away. It's not there to start with.

But it intensifies it to the point where it's unavoidable.

You could circumvent the impact of EMH by avoiding the park where EMH were being offered.

How do you avoid NextGen?

Go to Universal, SeaWorld, Disneyland...
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen anyone mention this -- but has anyone else noticed the unintentional humor in the WDW banner ad on this page that advertises the 3-day FL Resident ticket.

The ad says something like "Been There...Haven't Done That," and it shows a picture of an Everest coaster train.

Just how many years do they think it's been since I've been at the parks? Not exactly like Everest is a new attraction.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
-How many reserved spots will there be for watching fireworks? and will I have to give up a FP for Space Mountain to get that spot?

You already make such compromises... is that FP return time compatible with what you were planning on doing? Does it conflict with dinner or were you planning on leaving earlier? Or wait.. if I get this FP for Splash, will there still be Space FPs available when my window comes up again?

You asked for benefits.. I offered some. Not every benefit will apply equally to every person obviously.

And will I have to decide 3 months in advance that I want to spend all night in the MK to watch those fireworks?

and where does all your hate go if you find out you have very good FP+ availability without long notice? Does that change your outlook?

Online menus? At this point, not having online menus is a joke. I don't see how NextGen has any impact on that. It was going to have to happen. Regardless.

It wasn't going to happen for free.. and NextGen funding has provided the means to have them. But again, a benefit is it not?

-Access to mobile wait times. A nice feature, no doubt. Not really a part of the major body of NextGen though.

Sure it is - and your comment shows the flaw in so many of these arguments. People chose to look at a single slice that they don't like.. and opt to ignore everything else.. and say 'this thing sucks!!' because they don't like the slice. This feature, along with the mobile app, are outputs of NextGen.

-In park Kiosks to check dining is a benefit? How? Is it easier then calling? Is it easier then checking online?

Do we need to go back and read how many posters in this thread have complained 'I don't have a smart phone', 'I can't roam internationally...', etc. Now you have a simple way to access your plans and make new ones as well. Again.. a benefit - regardless if YOU need it or not.

-Now you are into potentials, and I can list piles of potential negatives to counter point these. Potential benefits are not interesting to me.

The fact there is a negative elsewhere.. doesn't make the offering not a benefit. That doesn't negate the new offering - which you asked for.

I am not throwing out positives. I am searching for them

Sure you are.. you just said yourself four times how positives weren't really positives for various reasons be them personal need or because you feel they are offset by something else.

Fastpass has offsets too.. do you not consider Fastpass as offering a benefit in the park?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
1)Love how you leave out WWOHP which disproves your point

WWOHP wasn't part of your post and I addressed Pentacat's question in this post
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ions-and-opinions.857322/page-85#post-5269241

but if we want to play this game, the resort was envisioned with a transportation network in place, one which they don't like to invest in apart from letting Mears run more buses for them. WDW is supposed to a world class resort, customer service is free - best hotels in London - staff chat to you while being polite and courteous giving service with a smile. Talking of world class resorts I expect the grounds to be kept well.

What is free to you is not free to the company...

2)What else are going to do with it after they have used it. They'll sell it .. or more likely but access to the data on the table when it comes for negotiations for sponsors for the Parks. I'm standing on terra firma, while you seemingly are trying out for a job at Celebration Plaza ...

Based on your justification - they should have been selling it all along - but they haven't.. so there goes that theory.
 

BlueSkyDriveBy

Well-Known Member
So easy to play devil's advocate with this batch:

If I don't have to wait an hour for a fireworks place.. that's a benefit to me
And if there are more people wanting reserved standing for fireworks viewing than can be accommodated, what determines priority? How far out the reservation was booked? Sounds like ADR with booking the viewing spot six months in advance. Do you have that level of vacation flexibility? Many families don't. And reserving viewing spots takes away available viewing locations for the casual park guest who decides to watch at the last minute.

If they are going to offer order ahead.. even if you don't want that service, that means they'll likely post their menus online and you can't get it direct from disney (updated) rather than relying on 3rd party sites
What happens to guests who are trapped in a longer than advertised line or blocked by a parade or stuck on a bus or monorail and can't pick up their food in time? Does Disney toss it after a specified waiting period and charge you anyway?

The idea that I can see return times and wait times on my smartphone is a benefit (this too was part of nextgen build up)
You're kidding, right? How will this possibly work on a consistent basis when everyone can see the wait times simultaneously via a single entry point?

Having this information only available to one or two display boards inside the park limits immediate response. Only a very small percentage of the total number of guests are privy to that information at one time, which prevents stampedes to nearby attractions with shorter lines.

But when a much larger percentage of guests have access to that information, thereby causing a relatively short line to grow almost instantaneously, woe be to the guests who walked a bit too slow and/or from a further starting point. They'll arrive at their destination, only to discover a previously shortened queue has now tripled in length, especially since this info is infamous for not being updated in a timely manner.

Besides... with the addition of FP Extra Crispy, most standby queues are going to be long throughout the day, anyway. Wait times sent to your smartphone won't matter.

The idea I can check FP/FP+ availability without having to cross the park to figure out is a benefit
I'm guessing this will only matter in the first few hours after park opening. By noontime, they'll all be distributed.

The idea I will have kiosks in the park I can check dining availability (as well as via my devices) is a benefit
If that information is only available via an in-park kiosk, fine. But if it's also available via smartphone, along with booking capability, it's worthless. The reservations will be gone before mealtime.

And if you're actually referring to the standby lines for eating locations, it will have the same problem that ride wait times have with single entry point updates. You might not arrive ahead of the rush and/or the wait time listed may not reflect reality.

The potential for services like people locating would be a benefit
Only if Disney is the sole access point for that info. And only if the security measures in place are virtually foolproof. I don't want disgruntled ex-spouses showing up and telling WDW Security about their kid getting lost and needing help to retrieve them, so they can kidnap the child to get revenge on their ex. I could see this scenario playing out on a regular basis.

The potential for improvement in services by knowing actual crowd loads (like bus stops) would be a benefit
As if Disney has a financial incentive to lessen your wait time, foolish mortal.

The potential for new show integration (just because you may not enjoy it doesn't mean all guests won't)
I've already posted about the disappointed kids whose parents didn't participate in NextGEN who didn't get greeted by name by their favorite characters. I see greater opportunity for abuse and unintentional negative outcomes than I do for rewards, because I'm a realist when it comes to this level of personal intrusion in order to maximize profits.

How can you argue any of those are NOT positives for the guest?
Simple. I just did.

The reality is people are taking the things they perceive as negative and throw out all the positive because of the negative.. and then argue there is nothing in it for the guests. Well certainly not if you've cleared the table of anything positive because you had something you saw as a negative first...
It's all a matter of degree.

What percentage of negative outcome do guests have to endure in order to get a significant percentage of positive reward to cancel out the negative?

What kind of negative outcome will NextGEN create? And how detrimental will those negative outcomes be?

And to what extent will the existing Disney park experience be positively changed for the average, middle class family who visits but once every 5 to 10 years that doesn't end up costing them more of their hard-earned money? That's the most important question of all.

If that family needs to spend more time, and hence more money, at the NextGEN WDW in order to see and do everything they can do right now without NextGEN, then that's a huge negative in my book.

What's the point of standing in a longer interactive queue because of NextGEN and experience fewer rides for the day versus standing in a shortened, non-interactive queue without NextGEN, thus allowing more rides to be experienced?

If given the choice between fewer rides with longer interactive queues versus more rides with shorter non-interactive queues, I believe most guests would pick the latter over the former, hands down. But that would be bad for Disney, who wants you to stay on property to ride all of your favorite rides and spend spend spend more of your hard-earned money.

Sure, it's better for the Disney execs and investors if that family still books their vacation with extra attendance days. But it's bad for the family if it's costing them more or giving them a shortened and reduced experience for the same price. Unfortunately, Disney only cares about what's in it for them right now, which will probably hurt them down the road in the loss of customer trust and goodwill.

But that's another headache for different CEO to deal with. Right, Mr. Iger?

:rolleyes:
 

crispy

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen anyone mention this -- but has anyone else noticed the unintentional humor in the WDW banner ad on this page that advertises the 3-day FL Resident ticket.

The ad says something like "Been There...Haven't Done That," and it shows a picture of an Everest coaster train.

Just how many years do they think it's been since I've been at the parks? Not exactly like Everest is a new attraction.

That ride is down so much maybe they haven't. :cool:
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
You already make such compromises... is that FP return time compatible with what you were planning on doing? Does it conflict with dinner or were you planning on leaving earlier? Or wait.. if I get this FP for Splash, will there still be Space FPs available when my window comes up again?

You asked for benefits.. I offered some. Not every benefit will apply equally to every person obviously.

and where does all your hate go if you find out you have very good FP+ availability without long notice? Does that change your outlook?

It wasn't going to happen for free.. and NextGen funding has provided the means to have them. But again, a benefit is it not?

Sure it is - and your comment shows the flaw in so many of these arguments. People chose to look at a single slice that they don't like.. and opt to ignore everything else.. and say 'this thing sucks!!' because they don't like the slice. This feature, along with the mobile app, are outputs of NextGen.

Do we need to go back and read how many posters in this thread have complained 'I don't have a smart phone', 'I can't roam internationally...', etc. Now you have a simple way to access your plans and make new ones as well. Again.. a benefit - regardless if YOU need it or not.

The fact there is a negative elsewhere.. doesn't make the offering not a benefit. That doesn't negate the new offering - which you asked for.

Sure you are.. you just said yourself four times how positives weren't really positives for various reasons be them personal need or because you feel they are offset by something else.

Fastpass has offsets too.. do you not consider Fastpass as offering a benefit in the park?

You are giving me slivers of positivity. And the fact is, all of the positives you mentioned are either A. Questionably positive or B. Things people would expect anyway. Having online menus is not a big deal. The majority of restaurants in my area have them, in fact, it is a large majority. Not having them is a much bigger deal then having them. I don't see that as moving the needle.

I guess we just have to disagree here.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
WWOHP wasn't part of your post and I addressed Pentacat's question in this post
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...ions-and-opinions.857322/page-85#post-5269241



What is free to you is not free to the company...



Based on your justification - they should have been selling it all along - but they haven't.. so there goes that theory.

1)It was, I gave an example...
2)You could say that about every business - when you go into Harrods and want advice to get from X to Y departments they give it to you as it is good customer service ... but keep trying to defend a multinational corporation...
3)How do you know they haven't been selling it already...they can track you by camera already throughout the park...

Remind me your customer right! Act like one ... don't think of the poor defenseless multinational corporation ... bleh...
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
How do you know they haven't been selling it already...they can track you by camera already throughout the park...

Again.. using your logic - if they already are, what are you gonna lose now you didn't already?

But we know they aren't because of their statements on privacy and data collected.
 

jlsHouston

Well-Known Member
FP has only been 'level' if you were willing to tour like most optimized people do.. already compromising what YOUR choice may be.

Not a morning person? Screwed
A local that only comes after work? Screwed
You don't like to criss-cross the park? Screwed
Oh you didn't know you could ignore the end-time? Screwed by your neighbors who did know that and could game the system to their advantage
Oh you don't want to hit DCA by 8:30 in the morning and stand in a 40min line for RSR FPs? Screwed

The only thing fair about the system was it was 'first come, first serve' and free. It was never a level playing field because it demanded people conform to a specific model.. one many could not, or would not comply with.



Of course they don't - that was the point.. and debunking's Lee's concern that the parks no longer offer a level playing field. They haven't for a long time and those were examples of that.

Of course there hasn't been a level playing field at the parks entirely. Probably the reason I can count on 1 hand the number of times I used FP for a ride because I do fall in that line 1 and line 3 category... but FP# and the nexgen technology APPEAR to only make it less level. Say I plan a trip for Memorial Day Weekend. I decide we will do MK, Epcot , HS, AK and MK in that order, then I pick our FP rides..oops no FP available for Soaring on the day I plan Epcot..I mean where is the improvement? Under the old system I can pick my park days, make my ADR's and as long as one of us in my travel party gets to the FP line early enough we get our FP. It APPEARS to me there is a possibility I am not going to get a FP now on the days I want because rides can now be booked so far ahead of time just like restaurants. Also there is a very real possibility some of the FP for the more desirable rides might just go to people in a deluxe category versus a value or moderate category resort... The nexgen stuff with FP+ just really has the appearance of another way for Disney to increase profits, control the experience and give not much in return, maybe feed the OCD planner in us while we are in the countdown stage of our vacation but that is it. Therefore if it wasn't fair before, and it certainly is no more fair now, why isn't okay for some customers of disney to be annoyed/dismayed they allocated a couple of billion on this technology? This is of course all IMO stuff and possibly subject to some faulty reasoning on my part but I cannot help but have a distaste in my mouth over this MAGIC+ implementation...:confused:
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
And if there are more people wanting reserved standing for fireworks viewing than can be accommodated, what determines priority? How far out the reservation was booked? Sounds like ADR with booking the viewing spot six months in advance. Do you have that level of vacation flexibility? Many families don't. And reserving viewing spots takes away available viewing locations for the casual park guest who decides to watch at the last minute.

You make the assumptions that allocation is purely as it is today.. 'first come, first serve' - that isn't the only way it can be done. Second, you assume there is only one spot - why not do it like WoC where there are multiple zones available.

Again you make a lot of assumptions and then say 'Ha.. doesn't work!' as opposed to being open to how they can make it work.

What happens to guests who are trapped in a longer than advertised line or blocked by a parade or stuck on a bus or monorail and can't pick up their food in time? Does Disney toss it after a specified waiting period and charge you anyway?

That has nothing to do with what I said - I didn't say use advance ordering - I was talking about the menus being available.. like we all use allears.net today for. And again.. you assume advanced ordering means 'make it before they get there'. Again, assumptions made that aren't the only possibilities.

You're kidding, right? How will this possibly work on a consistent basis when everyone can see the wait times simultaneously via a single entry point?

It already works and is already available. You go through great lengths to outline a corner case to discount the entire thing. We call it a 'corner case' for a reason.

I'm guessing this will only matter in the first few hours after park opening. By noontime, they'll all be distributed.

again.. using the old way of thinking and assuming that's the ONLY way it will be. Capacity can be dolled out at any interval the company choses.

If that information is only available via an in-park kiosk, fine. But if it's also available via smartphone, along with booking capability, it's worthless. The reservations will be gone before mealtime.

Again.. back to who has smartphones, roaming, etc. These are benefits the system is enabling.

Only if Disney is the sole access point for that info. And only if the security measures in place are virtually foolproof. I don't want disgruntled ex-spouses showing up and telling WDW Security about their kid getting lost and needing help to retrieve them, so they can kidnap the child to get revenge on their ex. I could see this scenario playing out on a regular basis.

And is a case easily avoided - Don't expose location data unless an authorized user's 'key' is provided first. Authorized user can be defined at the start of the trip. Don't let front-line employees access the data on their own accord. That is unless.. you want to create yet another corner case of 'during the middle of the trip, the spouse decides to kidnap the kids, but he/she doesn't know where the kids are, and the kids have been separated from the other spouse, AND the other spouse has no idea what the other is up to'.

I've already posted about the disappointed kids whose parents didn't participate in NextGEN who didn't get greeted by name by their favorite characters. I see greater opportunity for abuse and unintentional negative outcomes than I do for rewards, because I'm a realist when it comes to this level of personal intrusion in order to maximize profits.

And there are lots of examples where it DOES work already. So take it for what you will.

Simple. I just did.

With diversions, corner cases, ignoring existing models, and assuming everything stays the same when it doesn't have to. Yeah, pretty much a pessimists view who has already made up her mind.

What percentage of negative outcome do guests have to endure in order to get a significant percentage of positive reward to cancel out the negative?

That is certainly a valid question - but the postulation out there isn't "These are nice, but I'm not willing to compromise.." but is instead "There is nothing out there to benefit the guest" - that is what I addressed.
 

SirLink

Well-Known Member
Again.. using your logic - if they already are, what are you gonna lose now you didn't already?

But we know they aren't because of their statements on privacy and data collected.

Because they don't have all the info at their finger tips all they currently is my customer reference number and that I entered a park at this time. Then it is up to the cameras to follow me around the Park.

But we know your in denial over the selling of the data.
 

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