Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

dhall

Well-Known Member
YES! ... That is so, so very true.

I think the issue is Disney is dipping its toes in a very big ocean and everyone out there with a product to peddle or service to sell is waiting to see how far Disney can go with this.

WDW has the ultimate controlled atmosphere to execute this with 24/7 access to guests staying in its almost 30,000 hotel rooms, timeshares and camp sites.

They are like the bellweather. If Disney can do datamining on a massive scale and get away with it, then everyone from apparel companies and airlines to automobile manufacturers to etc will be trying to slip and slide the 'Disney Model' onto their businesses.

Big Data programs are already in place in most Fortune 500 (and beyond) companies, tracking everything from customers to supply chain. Disney (of all companies) is going to the be textbook case of how not to talk about it.

I think the best case of how to roll it out publicly that I've seen is the "My Lowes" program where they'll tell you what color paint you've bought & what size air filters you need.
 

Genie of the Lamp

Well-Known Member
But-but-bu...he brought back hand-drawn animation!!! (with one real feature, a 50-minute Pooh piece that could have been made by the Australian studio and no new features in sight)

That crusade was led by Lasseter right when Disney/Pixar made their deal. Iger deserves credit to a certain extent for giving the green light for PATF and so does Catmull. Unless you were referring to Eisner, then yeah he and Frank and Roy and Jeffery resurected the Animation Studios.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Large additions like those, will certainly have a ROI over time (3 years?), but, the cost of such additions (at least the way Disney does them), is becoming more and more difficult to sell to the executives and investors who don't have the long term patience and want to see immediate returns on their money or at the least, within a year.

Perhaps, Disney's business model is broken.

If with record profits and jumping to acquire all sorts of IP while creating very little of its own, Disney can't put any money back into WDW when the competition is bringing their 'A' game, then I don't know when they'll invest.

I've been waiting since the 1990s for fresh product and hearing the same tired lines whether the economy was great, terrible or in between.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
You do know that selling to companies blackballed by the state department is illegal right? Those deals happen because of unscrupulous grey market partners. Partner's buy it in a legal part of the world, then resell it to people in the banned countries. Happens to every company to some degree.
I call bulls$@#!! You know the countries that I listed are, or in Syria's case were, on good terms with the US and the deals were allowed to precede. Sure there's a gray market, but you KNOW that Cisco and others have legally sold this stuff to US friendly oppressive regimes.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
That's a fair assessment and I can see why proximity would be enough. But I was rally just trying to point out that it was technically possible to track folks more closely than some seem to think.

Track as long as they are 'visible' to the system. There are other important distinctions lost in the terminology used in this thread. Tracking infers the system can find you.. maybe even if you didn't want to be found. This system would be limited from doing that. If the bracelet is just transmitting.. Disney can only know where they last 'saw' you and your band. Go out of range of the receivers.. or obscure the band.. no more visibility into where you are.

Net effect - if you don't want to be 'seen' its easy enough to avoid it. The only people that are going to be locatable are those that don't care.

People have already been volunteering their location info for years.. and surprisingly.. no one cared until recently. If you aren't using the band - you aren't any more exposed than people using credit cards millions of times a day.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
That crusade was led by Lasseter right when Disney/Pixar made their deal. Iger deserves credit to a certain extent for giving the green light for PATF and so does Catmull.

My point was to show that trying to hype Iger's success in doing so was/is in reality minimal at best, both because it hasn't led to much and you're point about it really being Lasserter who pushed for that.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
We've seen lots of examples where MyMagic+ will improve the offerings - I doubt many people question that. The problem for people is not seeing the positives, but rather the weighing of the negatives against the positives.

No, I've seen examples where MyMagic+ MAY improve the product (that already exists) for a certain number of guests DEPENDING on whether they can ever get their tech to work and put privacy concerns to rest.

When I weigh what Disney is spending versus the best possible outcomes I'm reading from supporters, my opinion is that Disney is in the process of blowing billions of dollars when WDW needs it most.

Again, I'm not doubting this may improve the same product for some (or even many) guests. I'm saying that's an awful lot of money to spend for those results (leaving privacy issues out of it).

Oh, and in an unrelated piece of news, just into my inbox comes word that DVC points at DAK Lodge and Aulani will be increasing from $140 to $145 a point this spring.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
OK, how about straight up. "Which do you think would enhance your theme park going vacation more, the $1.5 Billion NextGen project, or $1.5 Billion worth of new attractions and general park maintenance?" Clear and concise enough for you there flynn? Lets see you twist that one up to point of ridiculousness.

I haven't read ahead, but I bet he does!

He likes his tech ... that Flynnibus fella ... bless his heart.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I call bulls$@#!! You know the countries that I listed are, or in Syria's case were, on good terms with the US and the deals were allowed to precede. Sure there's a gray market, but you KNOW that Cisco and others have legally sold this stuff to US friendly oppressive regimes.

So selling stuff legally to friendly countries is now bad.. because now.. they aren't as friendly. And for that you want to slander people and companies. Brilliant. How far back should we go? The Sha? Stalin?

The export control list is quite extensive - the companies aren't selling stuff to these places - it's resellers selling stuff in back room deals.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's not twisting - its actually REMOVING spin. Don't hate me because I'm right :p

From someone in media - I thought you'd be better at understanding how to identify and scrub bias... even the unintended bias.

If you want to compare to NFE and that list. Your free to your conclusion.

C'mon, Flynn old pal, old buddy, old foamheader lover :D ... everyone brings in bias to some degree because it is part of the human condition. If you are going to state that you're looking at this situation from a completely clinical, detached PoV, I think I'll choke and I have nothing in my mouth right now.

I will say that I'd like your job since it clearly allows you all day to spend here while 'working' ... even with my unique circumstances, I can't say likewise!
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
No, I've seen examples where MyMagic+ MAY improve the product (that already exists) for a certain number of guests DEPENDING on whether they can ever get their tech to work and put privacy concerns to rest.

When I weigh what Disney is spending versus the best possible outcomes I'm reading from supporters, my opinion is that Disney is in the process of blowing billions of dollars when WDW needs it most.

Again, I'm not doubting this may improve the same product for some (or even many) guests. I'm saying that's an awful lot of money to spend for those results (leaving privacy issues out of it).

I wouldn't disgree with that. But the context was 'will it benefit guests' - and as you say there are areas it will. Will there be winners and losers? Probably.. even quaint FP has losers... But will more lose then win? Will there be some class warfare split? I think that is still unclear.
 

Virtual Toad

Well-Known Member
I think what Disney is doing with my personal information, my actions, my choices, is just as unsettling as when other companies do it.

But I think the pushback they're getting (unexpectedly judging from Mr. Iger's reaction) is due in part to the use of a bracelet to carry the technology. Perhaps they thought guests would love the convenience factor but there's been a groundswell of negatvity because of the symbolic nature of the bracelet. It's hard to ignore what they're doing because it's literally as clear as the bracelet on your wrist.

When some in the company internally call this program "tag and release" there's a reason for it, and Disney has to realize some of its customers have conjured up the same symbolism.

I think DisCo rolled this out too quickly and too haphazardly without considering the negatives. In their brazenness they've clearly crossed a line with many. Perhaps it's all for the best because as a society we're finally starting to wake up and think about these issues. Disney's actions may have done this nation a service by kick-starting the discussion.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
But how about local AP holders. You know, the ones who decide which park they are going to Sat. Morning when they wake up. TSMM and Soarin' FP+ will be the attraction equivalent to Cindy's Royal Table and Le Cellier ADRs.

Well, some folks will simply argue that APers and locals are not as important as those almost mythic 'once in a lifers' or the 'every 3-4 year crowd', so you get screwed by Mickey and you say thank you when he is done the deed!
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I will say that I'd like your job since it clearly allows you all day to spend here while 'working' ... even with my unique circumstances, I can't say likewise!

It's called multi-tasking.. you should try it :) What better way to pass the droning time of endless meetings or waiting for the file to copy then checking out wdwmagic all day :)
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I think what Disney is doing with my personal information, my actions, my choices, is just as unsettling as when other companies do it.

But I think the pushback they're getting (unexpectedly judging from Mr. Iger's reaction) is due in part to the use of a bracelet to carry the technology. Perhaps they thought guests would love the convenience factor but there's been a groundswell of negatvity because of the intrusive nature of the bracelet and it's symbolism/comparion to "house arrest."

Do you think it would have been dramatically different if they just rolled the programs out with just the RFID tickets and KTTW cards first... and then later added the MagicBand?

They must have thought the MB was going to be marketable.. hence why they led with it first.. vs taking the technical approach which would have been to make all the near-field stuff work first.. then add MB as its an enhancement on the baseline.
 

Virtual Toad

Well-Known Member
Do you think it would have been dramatically different if they just rolled the programs out with just the RFID tickets and KTTW cards first... and then later added the MagicBand?

They must have thought the MB was going to be marketable.. hence why they led with it first.. vs taking the technical approach which would have been to make all the near-field stuff work first.. then add MB as its an enhancement on the baseline.

Yeah, I sincerely do feel there would have been less negativity because the RFID element would have been less visible. In a twisted way, Disney's taking heat for their own honesty. I just don't think anyone in the company anticipated the bracelets themselves prompting such a negative response. I think they may truly have seen the MagicBand as a cool convenience factor for guests. I just don't think they thought through the symbolic angle and this has taken them totally by surprise.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Happier than Biddie Boutique? Happier than a new princess M&G? Happier than a new Dumbo? Happier than a new Pleasure Island?

A Biddie Boutique? Is that where a Patty Melt might get her hair done for a church bake sale?

I would say yeah.. NextGen offers me more than any of those types of things. Would NextGen be better than RSR? IMO - yes. Why? Because NextGen will offer things that improve me all over the property.. and will continue to every trip. The idea of a FastPass never grew 'old' to people.. it's something you benefited from every trip without worry about 'getting stale'. An attraction may be neat for me initially.. but will it hold up over time? That's a gamble they take.

Yeah, you have completely lost me. You'd rather have a confusing, privacy concern riddled guest planning tool that an actual E-Ticket attraction that is the best Disney has produced stateside this century? OK ... You go and enjoy your virtual ride on your smartphone (I've got an APP for that!) because you're arguing that better planning is better than fresh attractions that you might have to wait for.

Would NextGen be better than POTC+HM+JC+BTMRR? No - but if they could guarantee classics that would hold up for decades and be seen as global favorites ahead of time.. I think they'd be far more successful than they actually are today :)

I don't get your point. Those attractions that date back to the 50s and 60s and, one, 70s, are all beloved today all over the world. They're holding up just fine and that is even with people addicted to their iPhones.


It's not a nitpick - but rather strengthening the question. Conclusions drawn from sloppy data is just as sloppy. Crap in, Crap out.

I think there's a lot of crap being spread, that's for sure.

I still think the problem for most people is the negatives (cost and tradeoffs) are what is holding them back.. not that they don't like the benefits.

I'm sure the complaints will shift over time..
instead of 'I can't get a FP day of..' it will switch to 'I can't get a FP at the time I want...'
Instead of 'Disney is tracking me...' it will switch to 'Disney makes it too hard to opt-out...'
Instead of 'FP+ takes all the good seating...' it will switch to 'My FP+ seating sucks!! it should be better...'

People always need something to be critical of and moving the line helps them from having to admit error.

Right, ultimately, the issue to you is that people will always have something to complain about. Not that maybe this isn't the best way for a company to spend a few billion dollars.
 

drew81

Well-Known Member
As it turns out, opposition to the use of Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) devices on humans is both long and widespread. Groups as diverse as the ACLU and the Christian Coalition oppose their use. Concerns center on invasions of privacy and dehumanization. The debate continues with some Supreme Court justices recently suggesting laws have not kept pace with tracking technology.

At WDW, the issue with RFID is not merely its use, but the pervasiveness of its use. An argument could be made that short-range RFID readers are appropriate at some locations such as theme park entrances, as resort room keys, and at points of purchase. These are, after all, points at which individuals need to exchange information with Disney.

However, a significant portion of NextGen’s considerable budget was used to install RFID readers throughout the theme parks and beyond. There is a reason why NextGen costs so much. With widespread deployment of RFID readers along with a significantly upgraded data network, Disney now has the ability to closely track individual movements in real-time and to amass considerable datasets on these movements. For those who wear MagicBands, Disney has the ability to track those using long-range readers. MagicBands afford Disney greater tracking capabilities but, because of the vast infrastructure upgrade, Disney has newly enhanced capabilities to track movements in real-time throughout many WDW locations even with RFID cards.

As cost and technology improves, it makes sense for Disney, if unchallenged, to enhance their tracking capabilities further in order to “provide guests with enhanced experiences”. (Isn’t this the reason we’ve been told they are needed now?) In WDW’s case, the issue is not merely the use of RFID technology but the pervasiveness and continued expansion of its deployment.

Discussions of “RFID triangulation” are a red herring. Disney does not need to use triangulation algorithms to determine location. With a sufficient number of short-range RFID readers, Disney has the capability to determine location to within a few feet. It’s simply a matter of where and how many RFID readers Disney chooses to deploy.

Disney does not need RFID devices to track overall crowds. Disney’s current considerable video surveillance coverage, along with extensive data collected over decades using traditional methods, are more than adequate to monitor and respond to overall crowd patterns. From a business perspective, the only justification for person-specific RFID tracking technology is exactly that, to collect specific information on each “guest”.

Since Disney intends young children to wear MagicBands, there is concern that data collected on them could be a violation of current law. Proponents indicate that Disney provides an “opt out” option but, seriously, how many WDW “guests” truly know or understand their options? Up till now, Disney has not been forthcoming with information and it’s only because of widespread concerns that Disney has slowly released more detailed information. It seems Disney had hoped its “guests” would not notice; that the mind-numbing “Terms & Conditions” along with the less-then-informative FAQ would suffice. Disney clearly expected its “guests” to not pay attention.

RFID’s main supporters are those with vested interests in the technology and the data it produces. Essentially, RFID proponents are either RFID & associated technology manufacturers or involved in the data collection business. These organizations heavily lobby Congress, making it difficult to pass laws to protect our civil liberties. When it comes to using RFID technology on humans, it’s important to consider the motivations of organizations that defend it. Ultimately, these organizations have significant financial interests in assuring its success, with other considerations, including liberty and privacy, being secondary.

Disney’s failure to correctly gauge the public’s reaction to concerns with privacy and anxieties over children’s safety might explain Iger’s hostile cover letter to Rep. Markey. Having been assured by his internal team on its legality and anticipated public reaction, Iger almost certainly is aggravated by its reception so far. A lot of financial eggs have been placed in the NextGen basket and Disney cannot afford to drop that basket. Let’s not forget that the New Fantasyland has not turned out to be the “pretty spectacular” success Iger predicted it would be. Iger must be frustrated both with WDW’s financial performance and track record. Under Iger’s tenure, WDW has not had a single major success, a black eye on Iger’s otherwise impressive career. At this point, Iger has to exacerbated that NextGen is off to an inauspicious start. Iger took a risk when he approved NextGen and NextGen potentially represents Iger greatest failure.

Disney sells NextGen as an “enhanced guest experience” but, first and foremost, executives view it as an enormous financial windfall. That’s the biggest problem at WDW today; senior leadership thinks of profits first, customers second. WDW management used to place show before all else and customers financially rewarded them for it. As symbolized by Iger’s recent WDW visit where he seemingly traveled via backstage access and dined at the finest restaurants, Disney leadership has little appreciation for what most WDW “guests” experience every day.

Does anyone else think this would look great in a full page ad in the Orlando Sentinel or the LA Times?
 

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