Spirited News and Observations and Opinions ...

dhall

Well-Known Member
Here's my problem with that, and its really my biggest issue with the whole system...
Typically, I don't plan my trips to WDW very far in advance. Usually inside of a month. If FP is phased out (which I don't believe has been stated officially), what is to prevent the uber-planners from booking all the FP+ before I even book my trip?
Say I decide to go down next week....what is he likelihood I'm gonna be stuck in Standby city for my whole trip, even if I wear the band and allow myself to be mined?

Having no kids, the COPPA issue is academic for me.
Disney knowing what I buy and ride is mildly annoying, but not a huge deal.
I'm concerned about the pre-planning aspect, which at this point appears to be a must unless you really enjoy standing in long lines.

I'm not worried about this so much, for a couple of reasons. First of all, I think they've always known that there is a certain number of attractions that guests want to experience in a day to feel like they've gotten value out of the visit. For most people, 3-4 fast passes doesn't constitute a whole-day plan. Most of your day will still be done the way it's always been done.

Also, assume that @ParentsOf4 is right about more FP's going to higher spenders and fewer going to day guess & guests at the lower hotels. It seems to me that that reduces the total number of fast passes in play, hotel guests are a minority of the guests in any park, and guests of the deluxe resorts are a minority of the hotel guests.

Remember a few years ago @KevinYee wrote a really good article about the impact FastPass has had on park ops? It really showed Kevin's background working directly in the parks and how the crowds move and on how Disney thinks about capacity, planning, etc. It was all speculation, though --very well educated speculation, but speculation nonetheless. One of the potentially positive things they're getting out of all this is much better information about how FastPass affects guests visitation patterns and how that changes as the number of FastPasses changes. They'll know how close Kevin was in his analysis and have tools for dealing with any problems that arise.
 

alissafalco

Well-Known Member
Here's my problem with that, and its really my biggest issue with the whole system...
Typically, I don't plan my trips to WDW very far in advance. Usually inside of a month. If FP is phased out (which I don't believe has been stated officially), what is to prevent the uber-planners from booking all the FP+ before I even book my trip?
Say I decide to go down next week....what is he likelihood I'm gonna be stuck in Standby city for my whole trip, even if I wear the band and allow myself to be mined?

Having no kids, the COPPA issue is academic for me.
Disney knowing what I buy and ride is mildly annoying, but not a huge deal.
I'm concerned about the pre-planning aspect, which at this point appears to be a must unless you really enjoy standing in long lines.

Exactly, try and get an ADR one month before you go (at a good place you want).
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I'll take a few swings at this:

I think the biggest single area of expense for this whole thing is the network infrastructure: they're essentially doing a municipal wireless system over a fairly large geographic area. Figure on a normal day, there will be upwards of 100,000 devices on the various networks. By itself, this could easily be more than half the budget and is also probably where most of the overrun comes from. This is obviously Cisco's part of the deal

Recognize - Cisco doesn't do deployments themselves, it's 100% a partner organization. They are very hands on due to the complexities of the product. They virtually dedicate Cisco people to support them and be onsite as part of the team.. (spend enough money.. and Cisco will just plant people onsite indefinitely) but at the end of the day it's a partner that has the contract. Just a tangent there... :)

The point of my earlier comment was about the mentality of.. take today's hated piece of the puzzle today.. and blame spending 1.5 billion on it. Next time a new piece of the puzzle becomes visible.. repeat the process again, blaming spending full cost on that too.

NextGen was a technology initiative early on.. and while it has has the personalized 'tag' at the core of many of the concepts.. there is so much more too it (especially when talking what cost money). Let's just list out some of things that had to happen to move the basic framework forward for Disney..

How many PoS terminals will Disney replace? Thousands I bet
How much will the PoS software changes will cost?
How much will changes to all the reservation systems will cost?
Development of new mobile device software that integrates with park ops, existing reservation systems, and new systems as well? (iPhone apps, etc)
Door locks on 30,000+ hotel rooms...
Hotel software at every property...
Changing the software and hardware at hundreds of ticketing/GR locations...
Changing the software and hardware at every park entrance...
Wifi infrastructure at literally 1,000+ locations...
Cast Member training...
Internal overhead on the project...

Oh, and all of that is before anyone thinks about storing data and doing business intelligence with the tag. All of the above would be necessary even if Disney didn't retain anything but a customer ID and credit card for billing. One could do all that and simply call it 'modernization'. But that's a huge chunk for ANYONE to do at once.

So I shake my head when people go on about spending a billion dollars on just datamining or personalization. All of the above was just foundation to build NEW applications and experiences on. And once they have it they can do new things.. like

FP+ reservation platform..
FP+ terminals through out the parks...
FP+ terminals for cast members..
integration to all customer facing Disney World websites
Numerous (unknown how many) Interactive Queues...
talking characters...
Install beacon detection at hundreds? thousands? of locations through the park
Build 'big data' platforms capable of handling and manipulating data that is probably on the level of 'unique in the world'
Build all the infrastructure and software to support interacting with that 'big data'
Build the business intelligence apps to draw meaningful references or conclusions from the data
and THEN spend again to figure out how to feed that new 'knowledge' back down into the systems.. like reservation.. sales.. direct marketing.. park ops..
Then figure out how to package the data to partners for value

Oh.. and do all of that on a property that hands millions of customers a year, operates 365/24/7, and is largely staffed by transient low-skilled labor.

Disney knows that the rising generation is attached to their digital umbilicals and that free internet/wi-fi access is already a cost-of-doing-business thing in the hospitality & large scale retail industries. That trend is not going to reverse any time soon -- in 10 or 20 years, this may be the equivalent of indoor plumbing)

Yup - and that's a large part of my post above. So much of this is just flat out "infrastructure" for the business.. infrastructure that for a long time will be the foundation of many things. These initiatives now are finally the thing that pushed them from 'desires' to 'property wide implementation'. These things become a 'cost of business' that enable new things on top (like FP+, BI, personalization, etc).

So yeah, I grow tired of the '1.5 billion on FP+!!' or '1.5 billion on tracking me!' posts..
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
I swear the fact that people are not more concerned about this makes me fear for the future. I guess it is true now that in the eyes of the public corporations should be above the law.
One of the reasons it doesn't bother me much is because when it comes to data mining they already do that by the KTTK card and, as far as that goes, any other payment method other than cash. Seeing where you are in the park? Can't think of any reason to care. If they were going to follow me out of the parks, then I might be able to conjure up some powerful righteous anger. Tracking kids (fear of pedophile), just exactly what do you think those cameras all over the park do. A pedophile isn't looking for a name they are looking for a victim. In fact the cameras are much more of a threat because they can see if they are alone without moving a muscle, with the bands, they have to compare electronic data to find that out. It is no more of a threat then there is already.

Other companies would have no interest in what people buy in a Disney Park because they do not sell the same thing. As I stated earlier they might have an interest in the software that runs the idea to adapt for there own unique application. Disney can and, logically will, use the information to figure crowd migration, where the best place to put a kiosk might be, where the masses jam up, where there is free flow, how many people are waiting in a particular attraction, what one is the most popular without having to depend on the CM's to keep track while being distracted, etc. I can see lots of reasons why a company might want to have a system like this and even though it appears, on the surface, to infringe on our privacy rights it doesn't do anything that they couldn't do already, it just makes it more precise and much easier and less dependent on the human element. Whether we like it or not, the privacy ship has sailed many moons ago. At least with this one, we know it's there.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
The good news in this NextGen fiasco is that it convinced me to plan another trip in March ...

To Universal.:)

Let's see if I can get a table at Finnegan's Bar and Grill for St Patrick's Day. I really enjoyed the Shepherd's Pie the last time I ate there.

Oh wait. This is Universal where I don't have to plan my ADRs 180 days in advance. Look at that. No problem getting a table for an Irish pub on St. Patrick's Day at any time I want. Go figure.

Too bad my party of 6 would have to get a "dinner" reservation at 4:30 PM if I wanted to eat at Epcot's Rose & Crown. Just imagine what time I'd get stuck with if I waited a few more weeks.

Good thing NextGen is going to make FP+ just like ADRs so I can book all my favorite attractions 60 days before I arrive, if I can get those. Probably have just as much success getting one of those as getting a good ADR.:rolleyes:
 

Darth Sidious

Authentically Disney Distinctly Chinese
Was not wrong. Money talks in America. Not religion because we live in an aethist nation were religion is against the law. Who ever is making this stud for Disney is giving them tons of money because disney doesn't do things for free. Unless Disney bought out the company.

What the hell are you talking about? Whether you believe in a religion or not that statement is incorrect.
 

dhall

Well-Known Member
Build 'big data' platforms capable of handling and manipulating data that is probably on the level of 'unique in the world'
Build all the infrastructure and software to support interacting with that 'big data'
Build the business intelligence apps to draw meaningful references or conclusions from the data
and THEN spend again to figure out how to feed that new 'knowledge' back down into the systems.. like reservation.. sales.. direct marketing.. park ops..
Then figure out how to package the data to partners for value

Thanks for the clarification on Cisco -- I'm betting they're routing this to their most experienced partners (unless Disney value engineered the onsite engineers)

I think we're largely on the same page, but I did want to pick on this a little. This is a big system, no question about it: big enough that companies with systems this size rarely have more than one. It's no where near 'unique in the world', though.

Take a park with 50k guests. Assume each guest enters & exits 10 attractions, enters & exits 10 shops & restaurants, uses a couple of fast passes, buys two meals, a snack, and cap. Your talking about 2-2.5 million rows of data per day, which sounds like a lot. Compared to every unique item sold at every Target store in the world? Disney's system is 2-3 orders of magnitude smaller.
 

briandoc

Member
Its funny reading how those that "care" so much to spend their time following these forums and posting their concern for WDW practices and future cant wait to boast about their plans to go to Universal instead. Maybe they could post photos of their fists full of money and do some funny caption like 'Disney can no haz ma money' since its what I picture while reading their posts anyway... Doesnt Uni have any forums or wont they have a big enough audience there?
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
Its funny reading how those that "care" so much to spend their time following these forums and posting their concern for WDW practices and future cant wait to boast about their plans to go to Universal instead. Maybe they could post photos of their fists full of money and do some funny caption like 'Disney can no haz ma money' since its what I picture while reading their posts anyway... Doesnt Uni have any forums or wont they have a big enough audience there?

So they shouldn't be allowed to discuss their opinions on Disney here, because they've expressed a preference for Universal? Fortunately, that's not the discussion forum the owner of this site has established......
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Its funny reading how those that "care" so much to spend their time following these forums and posting their concern for WDW practices and future cant wait to boast about their plans to go to Universal instead. Maybe they could post photos of their fists full of money and do some funny caption like 'Disney can no haz ma money' since its what I picture while reading their posts anyway... Doesnt Uni have any forums or wont they have a big enough audience there?

People like to visit Uni. What's wrong with that? This website's name may be WDWmagic, but there's a Universal forum here. Clearly this isn't a Disney-only site.

I think it's great that people are visiting Universal instead of continuing to stay in their Disney bubble. Who can blame them? There's a Harry Potter world over there for Pete's sake. One should admit it's a MUCH better addition than New Fantasyland. People are getting bored and looking for new experiences. I don't blame any of the people here for going to Uni and boasting about it.

I love the Disney parks I visit, but I can't wait until Potter opens up in California. I will definitely be waiting in those long lines.
 

briandoc

Member
People like to visit Uni. What's wrong with that? This website's name may be WDWmagic, but there's a Universal forum here. Clearly this isn't a Disney-only site.

I think it's great that people are visiting Universal instead of continuing to stay in their Disney bubble. Who can blame them?

I dont care about people visiting Uni, doesnt bother me, why should it. My reason for posting is the annoying way they throw it out there like they are changing the rotation of the earth because they are doing it.
 

Jimmy Thick

Well-Known Member
Well, Burbank seems to be s******g bricks over his letter.

Um, ever think Disney may have thought about any possible issues that may crop up before they green light any projects?

Billion dollar corporation can be short sighted?

Jimmy Thick- Officespace, "Ummmm, Yeaaaaaaah.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Thanks for the clarification on Cisco -- I'm betting they're routing this to their most experienced partners (unless Disney value engineered the onsite engineers)

Another peeve.. one day a word gets inserted into the lexicon (value engineer) and before you know it, it's attached to everything :)

I think we're largely on the same page, but I did want to pick on this a little. This is a big system, no question about it: big enough that companies with systems this size rarely have more than one. It's no where near 'unique in the world', though.

Take a park with 50k guests. Assume each guest enters & exits 10 attractions, enters & exits 10 shops & restaurants, uses a couple of fast passes, buys two meals, a snack, and cap. Your talking about 2-2.5 million rows of data per day, which sounds like a lot. Compared to every unique item sold at every Target store in the world? Disney's system is 2-3 orders of magnitude smaller.

It's funny you mention Target.. since they were a focus of heated attention in this area about a year ago regarding data mining and analytics
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

My comment was more about unique to the application of theme parks and mixed customer service+data gathering. We we talk big data, obviously national retailers have big data needs too.. but I can't comment on how centralized or not they really are. But if we look at their sales.. 69 billion last year for target.. assume some quaint average price.. say $10/unit for sanity's sake. That is 6.9 billion items to log. And real-time aspects I would assume to be related to purchases and returns.. not much need for real-time querying or analytics there. Pull up the batch for the transaction, and look it up. Customer buying history isn't likely exploited at the store.
Compare this to Disney.. using your numbers.. if you had 55 transactions to log per guest and 50k guests.. that's over a billion transactions a year. Less than one order of magnitude difference for target :) And if we look at density and throughput.. target has roughly 1700 stores. Using the same $10/unit.. that's roughly 11k entries per store per day. That seems minuscule for any time of real-time system. I have desktop debugging logs that grow that fast in minutes :) Meanwhile Disney onsite will have 50k+ people generating a lot more data points concurrently. The pure write throughput is pretty mind boggling. Comparisons to credit card processors is probably more akin to the type of architecture they need to consider.

But in the sense of big data.. I had a friend who used to work for AOL in the hayday. He said they logged EVERYTHING you typed and clicked.. and that's a lot of data. But that was nothing he says compared to how blown away he was when he went to work for the IRS as an architect :)
 

Monty

Brilliant...and Canadian
In the Parks
No
Um, ever think Disney may have thought about any possible issues that may crop up before they green light any projects?
Given that there was a release shortly after the Congressman's letter went public that answered most of the non-detail-specific questions raised in his letter, they won't target advertising at kids being the most salient, I'd say yes. Drafting a formal response to the remaining questions isn't likely to be difficult or something that would cause "chaos in Glendale".
 

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