Space Mountain track replacement questions

[Skyway]

I see in some previous threads from our "resident experts" that Disney is replacing much of SM's track, but keeping the original 1975 support structure (basically new track on old crossbeams).

I also saw one of our "experts" mention that without replacing the supports, the new track will not be able to handle heavier vehicles---hinting that SM will NOT be getting an on-board sound system.

So here are a few questions:

*Why (other than comfort) is the track replacement necessary, but not the support structure? I'm guessing the track itself takes the brunt of the wear-and-tear, while the structure remains rigid. Is that true?

*Is the 1975 support structure adequate? Or will they have to replace that in another decade or so, too?

*Does anyone know yet whether the on-board sound system is truly dead--for whatever reason?

* Its well-known that when Disneyland first tried to add an on-board audio system in 1995 to their existing trains without improving the track, the additional weight DID put excessive strain on the track (and the audio system itself did not work as designed). However, that was 13 years ago. Hasn't technology improved to the point where a MUCH lighter-weight (and more reliable) audio system could be added to the existing trains without altering the physics of the ride?? (Maybe not super-gluing an iPod nano and some earbuds to the seat in front of you, but I find it hard to believe a modern on-board audio system would tip the scales more than the belly of a WDW guest that's full of turkey legs and churros. Or is THAT the problem--that guests have maxxed out the weight limit, allowing no additional on-board hardware??)

 

[MousDad]

I'm not one of the experts, but in the lights-on photos that have been posted, it's the support structure that looks like it's about to fall apart to me.

 

[Lee]

Kinda confused about the whole track/support issue myself.
Been trying to get it straight for months.:shrug:
It's been kind of a moving target.

I'm not one of the experts, but in the lights-on photos that have been posted, it's the support structure that looks like it's about to fall apart to me.

Exactly how I feel, too. I don't like looking at those rickety old supports.:lookaroun

 

[Master Yoda]

In regards to the supports.....

This is from an engineers perspective and not from any direct knowledge of the supports.....

When the track was designed back in the 70's there were no computers that could value engineer a structure like this and get it down minimalist structure like can be done today. Back then there was quite a bit of what I call "brute force engineering" done. Loads were over estimated and the strength of materials was under valued. That resulted in structures being way over designed and having the ability to take considerably more torture than they have ever received.

But.......

The space mountain support system has been under heavy stress for the better part of 33 years. The cumulative effect of cars going around that track for so long as well as the corrosion evident in nearly ever picture would lead me to believe that most of the added strength due to over engineering would be lost due to metal fatigue and corrosion.

It can probably take a bit more force than it is currently receiving but when you are dealing with a dynamic structure like a roller coaster an additional 5 pounds here and there can break a design. If the current support structure remains unchanged on board audio will more than likely be nixed unless they can get the weight of the cars down.

 

[Lee]

Another small factor, perhaps.
The new track at Disneyland is much heavier than the old track. If you see photos of the new track before it was installed(got some at home...post later), it is of a much more substantial design. No doubt that was a huge factor in the replacement of the supports.
At MK...if they keep the small track design that they have now, they may be able to get by with just some strengthening of the supports as opposed to replacing them.

Maybe.

 

[eddy21]

I know the system used for RNR is a bank of capacitors powers the audio. There are charging strips at load and unload. probably weighs about 60 lbs.

 

[Skyway]

I never thought about battery weight. Then again, I would imagine battery technology has improved in the years since RnRC. Plus, with fewer seats on a SM sled, you would need fewer speakers, and presumably less power.

Another poster, emphasizing the acoustics of the SM building suggested the possibility of an external audio source (i.e. Blasting music alongside the track instead of on-board). IS THIS A REAL POSSIBILITY?

At first some might scoff that this would be a "cheap" way out, and a chinzy alternative. I disagree...if it's done right.

If Disney does not NEED to replace SM's support structure (which would amount to building 2 brand new rollercoasters), and if physics require a new structure to handle heavier trains with on-board audio, I can't say I'd blame Disney for killing that improvement (if installing a new home entertainment system in your living room would require you tearing down your house and rebuilding it, you would look for a cheaper and easier solution, too)

If an external soundtrack is done right ---- maybe putting in motion-activated sound effects at key moments like drops and turns that would blend with the overall soundtrack -- it would definitely make the WDW ride unique, and who knows, maybe even better.

Or is all that just unrealistic Internet speculation?

 

[imagineer boy]

Ugh, I wish Disney would just do the right thing and tear it all down and replace it. :brick: I agree with what others have said, the track looks like its in terrible condition.

If an external soundtrack is done right ---- maybe putting in motion-activated sound effects at key moments like drops and turns that would blend with the overall soundtrack -- it would definitely make the WDW ride unique, and who knows, maybe even better.

I don't think that would work, because the doppler effect (music would change tone because you're going by it so fast) of the riders would simply make it not work. Plus it would be really echo-ey in the interior of SM.

 

[Skyway]

You don't really get the Doppler effect on the TTA's external speakers (although it obviously doesn't move as fast). With A LOT of speakers, ensuring balanced audio levels along the ride track, I think it could work.

 

[Rob562]

I never thought about battery weight. Then again, I would imagine battery technology has improved in the years since RnRC. Plus, with fewer seats on a SM sled, you would need fewer speakers, and presumably less power.

In addition to battery weight, you also have the weight of the speakers. The speaker have magnets in them, and there's not really an easy way to lighten them without sacrificing long-term reliability.
Amps can also be heavy, plus the heat-sink required to keep them cool.
The electronics of the soundtrack storage and processing are probably the lightest components of the system, even back when Disneyland's Space Mountain first opened.

-Rob

 

[stitch2008]

If an external soundtrack is done right ---- maybe putting in motion-activated sound effects at key moments like drops and turns that would blend with the overall soundtrack -- it would definitely make the WDW ride unique, and who knows, maybe even better.

That's actually a very intresting idea. I never thought aboutt an external soundtrack.

 

[Lee]

As we all know, they have ways of projecting audio to very specific locations....
Personally, I don't think off-board audio will work well enough to be a viable option. However, I am open to convincing.

 

[marni1971]

With A LOT of speakers, ensuring balanced audio levels along the ride track, I think it could work.

It`s been tried in Orlando. The result was like all of iasw's tracks playing at once in an airplane hanger. Not good. Improvements in the lift hill area should mean off-car audio could be heard better than it is at the moment, but in the cone, apart from spot fx, forget it.

I`m still trying to get a definate answer about support/audio too. It`s changing week by week. The traditional Soundtracker system used in DLs SM `95, RnRC & SM:M2 will be too heavy for the current setup. New track may be lighter, and new cars may be lighter, offsetting the weight issue. Again, new cars have been a yes and no since last summer. For the speakers, only the bass speakers need to be magnetic cones, NXT technology is just as good and far lighter. Variations of Soundtracker have been developed too, but the common problem is battery weight.

Perhaps the supports can be beefed up to take the extra weight without rebuilding it. Maybe not. I know all the options have been discussed and have at one time or another been at the top of the list. The thing is that list just keeps moving around.

 

[jt04]

It`s been tried in Orlando. The result was like all of iasw's tracks playing at once in an airplane hanger. Not good. Improvements in the lift hill area should mean off-car audio could be heard better than it is at the moment, but in the cone, apart from spot fx, forget it.

I`m still trying to get a definate answer about support/audio too. It`s changing week by week. The traditional Soundtracker system used in DLs SM `95, RnRC & SM:M2 will be too heavy for the current setup. New track may be lighter, and new cars may be lighter, offsetting the weight issue. Again, new cars have been a yes and no since last summer. For the speakers, only the bass speakers need to be magnetic cones, NXT technology is just as good and far lighter. Variations of Soundtracker have been developed too, but the common problem is battery weight.



Perhaps the supports can be beefed up to take the extra weight without rebuilding it. Maybe not. I know all the options have been discussed and have at one time or another been at the top of the list. The thing is that list just keeps moving around.

Nothing that a total track teardown and replacement couldn't cure.

 

[Lee]

Nothing that a total track teardown and replacement couldn't cure.

It is a dream I have...
To peek into SM and see this going on...

 

[jt04]

It is a dream I have...
To peek into SM and see this going on...

Oh yeah! And just think how much easier that would make everyone's tasking then.

And it wouldn't have to be refurbed yet again in 5 or 10 years.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

This is probably a stupid thought, but...

For the subs at DL they developed a way for the subs to get power from a "power rail" of sorts that was even safe underwater.

What stops them from employing this solution at SM to deliver power to the vehicles (and maybe even stream the audio through this connection) to really cut down on on-board weight?? Then, all you would have would be speakers plus something to take the signal from the "3rd rail" and translate it back to sound for the speakers to fire.

:shrug:

 

[Lee]

As promised earlier, here is a comparison between Disneylands old and new SM track. You can see how the new track is much more substantial, and would seem to require a new, or vastly reinforced, support system.
Old:

and New:

What this means for MK's version is....well....ummmm....not real sure...:shrug:

 

[IlikeDW]

It`s been tried in Orlando. The result was like all of iasw's tracks playing at once in an airplane hanger. Not good. Improvements in the lift hill area should mean off-car audio could be heard better than it is at the moment, but in the cone, apart from spot fx, forget it.

I`m still trying to get a definate answer about support/audio too. It`s changing week by week. The traditional Soundtracker system used in DLs SM `95, RnRC & SM:M2 will be too heavy for the current setup. New track may be lighter, and new cars may be lighter, offsetting the weight issue. Again, new cars have been a yes and no since last summer. For the speakers, only the bass speakers need to be magnetic cones, NXT technology is just as good and far lighter. Variations of Soundtracker have been developed too, but the common problem is battery weight.

Perhaps the supports can be beefed up to take the extra weight without rebuilding it. Maybe not. I know all the options have been discussed and have at one time or another been at the top of the list. The thing is that list just keeps moving around.

I wonder if a system to generate power from the spinning of the wheels would weigh more than the batteries? Would probably drive maintenance cost up though.

 

[Skyway]

Wouldn't DL's track need to be excessively durable to be earthquake compliant? That would seem to be overkill in Florida.