Solar power farm coming to Disney

[GlacierGlacier]

That's what they said about flying.

Solar roads are flawed as a concept.

Solar roads have to put up with the same stresses and loads as regular roads, but with the added requirements of being transparent and containing expensive cells.

The entire thing is a flawed idea to begin with.

A core part of roads is that to use them, something has to be on them. Namely, a car.

A core part of solar panels is that to use them, nothing has to be on them. In fact, they can't work unless something is on them.

On roads with high enough traffic (I-4, or literally any road outside of backwoods rural land), roads would be covered by vehicles enough to prevent the sun from hitting the road, preventing electricity from being generated.


Now, putting solar on TOP of places like lots is smart. The only issues arise when you have to deal with vehicles of every hight, cleaning and maintaining the panels, preventing drivers from hitting and demolishing supports, and that it'd make it more difficult to find your car in large lots (i.e. Disney).

 

[ABQ]

Now, putting solar on TOP of places like lots is smart. The only issues arise when you have to deal with vehicles of every hight, cleaning and maintaining the panels, preventing drivers from hitting and demolishing supports, and that it'd make it more difficult to find your car in large lots (i.e. Disney).

Cleaning, depending upon the environment of course, isn't typically an issue that needs addressing very often. We have plenty out here in the desert southwest and even with the constant dust storms, efficiency is not impacted terribly on a year by year basis. One good example of a massive rooftop structure that does well with very little trouble is the one atop the Mandalay Bay convention center in Las Vegas.

 

[Phil12]

Solar roads are flawed as a concept.

Medians, recovery areas and rest stops:
https://www.curbed.com/2017/2/6/14521102/highway-the-ray-solar-power-transportation

 

[RSoxNo1]

Whatever happen to PhotoDave?

He's on Twitter

 

[lawdogNOLA]

I wonder if this is one reason for the price increases, considering solar's expense versus fossil fuels.

 

[Phil12]

I wonder if this is one reason for the price increases, considering solar's expense versus fossil fuels.

Obviously they amortize the solar panels and if they're smart, they amortize the sun as well since it only has about 5 billion years left.

 

[Lensman]

I wonder if this is one reason for the price increases, considering solar's expense versus fossil fuels.

Obviously they amortize the solar panels and if they're smart, they amortize the sun as well since it only has about 5 billion years left.

The Reedy Creek Improvement District signed a power purchase agreement with Origis Energy and signed over an easement for them to build the facility. So Origis will finance the building of the solar farm and pay the costs of operating it. RCID promises to buy all the power generated by the farm at a negotiated price. I don't think the pricing of the PPA is public, but I'd guess that RCID got a good price due to their being able to provide the land plus the marketing value of having Disney as a client.

At any rate, I'd ballpark RCID as paying between 3-5 cents per kWh. This is less than the cost of power of 8 cents per kWh to an commercial/industrial purchaser like Disney in Lake Buena Vista or Orlando. Note that these can't be directly compared because it doesn't include the distribution/delivery costs that RCID would pass along to Disney. For comparison, AZ and NV utilities recently signed PPAs at around 2.5 cents per kWh.

Anyway, I'd posit that Disney is doing this to save money and increase profits, just like a bunch of other people are speculating regarding Disney's other moves like eliminating straws and not giving out disposable shopping bags at Disney Stores. The sustainability aspect is just a bonus. Let's try to keep our paranoia consistent! Lol

 

[MisterPenguin]

It's shade for the turtles. Will no one think of the turtles?!!

 

[GlacierGlacier]

It's shade for the turtles. Will no one think of the turtles?!!

I'm always thinkin' 'bout turtles. Turtles and Ducks rule my heart in the small fauna department.

 

[larryz]

It's shade for the turtles. Will no one think of the turtles?!!

 

[GoofGoof]

I wonder if this is one reason for the price increases, considering solar's expense versus fossil fuels.

They are not paying much above the forward price curve for electricity. It’s actually a pretty decent deal.

Solar is getting to the point that it’s economically competitive with fossil plants. I know in Texas which is a completely deregulated market with no meaningful renewables mandate from the state there are thousands of megawatts of solar being developed and sold under 10 year power purchase agreements that are at or below the forward price curves for power. And this is after the federal production tax credit program expired in 2018 so these projects are being developed on pure economics only. In the heart of oil country it’s pretty interesting to see renewable power compete and win. There’s very little appetite for new fossil plants there now even with growing demand.

 

[Phil12]

It's shade for the turtles. Will no one think of the turtles?!!

It's shade for the Beatles too!

 

[danlb_2000]

You mean having people drive and park on glass that has to be extra hardened to drive on and making sure the in-ground panels never really face in the direction of the sun (i.e., southward) as the cars and surrounding landscaping and buildings block the sun?

One of the dumbest ideas ever and has gone nowhere.

I like this guy's channel. He is an electrical engineer and does a very good analysis of the problems with the solar roadway concept.

 

[Lensman]

They are not paying much above the forward price curve for electricity. It’s actually a pretty decent deal.

Solar is getting to the point that it’s economically competitive with fossil plants. I know in Texas which is a completely deregulated market with no meaningful renewables mandate from the state there are thousands of megawatts of solar being developed and sold under 10 year power purchase agreements that are at or below the forward price curves for power. And this is after the federal production tax credit program expired in 2018 so these projects are being developed on pure economics only. In the heart of oil country it’s pretty interesting to see renewable power compete and win. There’s very little appetite for new fossil plants there now even with growing demand.

Great insights and info! BTW, where do you get your info on forward electricity prices?

Wind is the big story in Texas, right? 18.54% in 2018 versus just 0.86% for solar. Note that this is an increase from 17.4% and 0.63% in 2017. Note that my numbers are from ERCOT so they don't include behind-the-meter solar.

Having recently read some interesting articles on the impact of wind on ERCOT's market, it looks like PV might be a great fit with the mid-day lull in wind generation, combined with the mid-day peak in air conditioning demand.

I'm continually fascinated by the microcosm that are the Texas/ERCOT energy market, since they run an independent grid only minimally connected to the other power grids in the U.S. Plus they publish great statistics online!

Gas, both combined cycle and peakers, have had an even greater impact in Texas even though they don't get as much press as either solar or wind. Combined, in 2018 they took 6% of generation away from coal in Texas.

 

[GoofGoof]

Great insights and info! BTW, where do you get your info on forward electricity prices?

Wind is the big story in Texas, right? 18.54% in 2018 versus just 0.86% for solar. Note that this is an increase from 17.4% and 0.63% in 2017. Note that my numbers are from ERCOT so they don't include behind-the-meter solar.

Having recently read some interesting articles on the impact of wind on ERCOT's market, it looks like PV might be a great fit with the mid-day lull in wind generation, combined with the mid-day peak in air conditioning demand.

I'm continually fascinated by the microcosm that are the Texas/ERCOT energy market, since they run an independent grid only minimally connected to the other power grids in the U.S. Plus they publish great statistics online!

Gas, both combined cycle and peakers, have had an even greater impact in Texas even though they don't get as much press as either solar or wind. Combined, in 2018 they took 6% of generation away from coal in Texas.

I work in the industry and my company does a lot of work in Texas specifically.

Wind is huge in Texas. I think they are up to over 29,000 MWs of wind, more than any other state. 2 big problems with it.

1. Most of the wind farms are in West Texas while most of the people are in the eastern part of the state. ERCOT spent billions on transmission upgrades to bring that power from West to east which has helped some. Because most of the wind was built during the time of the federal tax credits for renewables the off peak overnight prices in West Texas would often go negative up to the value of the production tax credit. Basically the generators would pay people to take their power because production exceeded demand but they only got the tax credits if they produced power. Crazy way for a free market to behave.
2. Wind power production is the highest overnight and lowest on hot, dry days. This is the exact opposite of power demand. If the wind doesn’t blow in August and it’s 104 in Houston and 108 in Dallas the system pups get maxed out. Didn’t happen last summer despite a lot of heat, but the wind was better than expected.

Solar is a better match to demand. During the heat of the day when the sun is directly overhead is when solar works best. That’s also when power demand is highest. Overnight when power prices are lowest solar is offline. In Texas we are just starting to see a large upswing in solar projects under construction. In 5 years I would not be surprised if solar caught up to wind.

Gas is always going to be needed. 100% renewable isn’t possible without major advances in batteries. We will always need quick start gas plants that keep the grid stable when a cloud passes over or the wind stops blowing. Right now natural gas is so cheap it’s really crushing coal. All the political nonsense about EPA regulations and clean air stuff is just BS. What’s killing coal is not renewables or environmental regulations but consistently cheap natural gas from fracking. Oil production is way up and natural gas is an offshoot of oil drilling.

 

[Rteetz]

I like this guy's channel. He is an electrical engineer and does a very good analysis of the problems with the solar roadway concept.

Solar Roadways definitely have issues. I did a college project on them. I think the next use would be large expansive parking lots. Such as sporting venues. Those aren’t used daily.

Solar roadways are definitely attempting to move forward though. My former school did load testing with them before they were to move towards mass production. I don’t believe they have entered mass production yet but are close.

Biggest downfall outside of energy storage and what not is cost. They are insanely expensive.

 

[DisneyCane]

I work in the industry and my company does a lot of work in Texas specifically.

Wind is huge in Texas. I think they are up to over 29,000 MWs of wind, more than any other state. 2 big problems with it.

1. Most of the wind farms are in West Texas while most of the people are in the eastern part of the state. ERCOT spent billions on transmission upgrades to bring that power from West to east which has helped some. Because most of the wind was built during the time of the federal tax credits for renewables the off peak overnight prices in West Texas would often go negative up to the value of the production tax credit. Basically the generators would pay people to take their power because production exceeded demand but they only got the tax credits if they produced power. Crazy way for a free market to behave.
2. Wind power production is the highest overnight and lowest on hot, dry days. This is the exact opposite of power demand. If the wind doesn’t blow in August and it’s 104 in Houston and 108 in Dallas the system pups get maxed out. Didn’t happen last summer despite a lot of heat, but the wind was better than expected.

Solar is a better match to demand. During the heat of the day when the sun is directly overhead is when solar works best. That’s also when power demand is highest. Overnight when power prices are lowest solar is offline. In Texas we are just starting to see a large upswing in solar projects under construction. In 5 years I would not be surprised if solar caught up to wind.

Gas is always going to be needed. 100% renewable isn’t possible without major advances in batteries. We will always need quick start gas plants that keep the grid stable when a cloud passes over or the wind stops blowing. Right now natural gas is so cheap it’s really crushing coal. All the political nonsense about EPA regulations and clean air stuff is just BS. What’s killing coal is not renewables or environmental regulations but consistently cheap natural gas from fracking. Oil production is way up and natural gas is an offshoot of oil drilling.

Those wind farms need to be paired with a facility that uses excess production to pump water to elevated tanks and then release the water through turbine generators when demand peaks. Might not be quite as efficient as batteries but will be MUCH cheaper.

 

[seascape]

Solar, wind and batteries are all needed if we are ever to eliminate the majority of fossil fuel. However. For it to really be economical and guarantee power their need to be natural gas backup generators. The future will also include the end of the electrical distribution system. I know of homes on Cape Poge that have run on wind power and batteries for years. Solar and batteries are all that is needed for most homes but in order to ensure power in all conditions and to be off the grid batteries and a natural gas generator are needed

There is one major issue with how home solar works today that most people have no idea about. That is the power your solar cells produce is not connected to your home. The power actually goes into the grid and is used by everyone. Therefore even if you have solar cells if there is a power outage in your area you will also be without power. Now, as solar cells cost continue to decrease and battery costs also decreases and gain efficiencies people will demand the right to leave the grid. Once they gain that right, the homeowners will save money, forcing the cost of staying on the grid to rise and thus forcing more and more off the grid until it can no longer longer exist. The good news is that in the near future the cost of solar and batteries will be lower than the cost now charged for power and distribution.

Then the only other issue to solve is what if there is still a problem, natural gas generators which some people already have. Large cities and buildings will have to have solar and or wind and small electric generation because of their energy demand and limited space. Rural and suburban areas will have the advantage here with lower cost power that will actually be more reliable than power in the cities.

The political issue of the poor will have to be addressed because they will be unable to buy the solar systems and it is necessary they have power. The government will have to find a subsidy for them but since there already is a subsidy given from all current electric users in their rates and the overall cost will be lower we will save money.

 

[larryz]

There is one major issue with how home solar works today that most people have no idea about. That is the power your solar cells produce is not connected to your home. The power actually goes into the grid and is used by everyone. Therefore even if you have solar cells if there is a power outage in your area you will also be without power.

Where did you get that idea? Solar panel Installations typically use daylight power production in the home through an inverter. Power generated excess to the home's needs is channeled to the grid. Power required in excess of the solar system's capacity is pulled off the grid.

Hybrid installations including local battery storage will provide power in grid-out conditions (a) while the sun is shining, and (b) until the batteries are exhausted after dark.

 

[seascape]

Where did you get that idea? Solar panel Installations typically use daylight power production in the home through an inverter. Power generated excess to the home's needs is channeled to the grid. Power required in excess of the solar system's capacity is pulled off the grid.

Hybrid installations including local battery storage will provide power in grid-out conditions (a) while the sun is shining, and (b) until the batteries are exhausted after dark.

I worked for a state utility regulator for 32 years. My last job was interacting with PJM and FEEC. Believe me when I say the power produced on homes is sent to the grid first and not your home and when there is a power outage in your area you lose power. Ask anyone in NY too what happened during Sandy. They lost power.

As for battery backup. Yes you can have it but the solar cells will still send power to the grid first. That is how net metering works so even with 24 hours of battery backup if power were out for days like what happened with Sandy, the homeowner would still be without power unless they have a generator. Also, keep this in mind, the power grid is about half the cost you actually pay for your electric. Therefore, if all homeowners went to solar power and stayed on the grid, the utility would still have to charge everyone half of what you now pay plus you would pay for the cost of your solar production. Right now you just pay the cost per KWH of the net difference and that means you are subsidized by everyone else. The idea that is fare is wrong because the wholesale price is less than half the cost that the utility is paying you for your production and they get nothing from you for the grid expenses.