Solar power farm coming to Disney

[DisneyCane]

In the Northeast, both NY and NJ require all residential solar systems to be connected to the grid first then battery backup. In other words they require you to suffer any power outage like everyone else. Yes you can have a system that gives you 24 hours of power but no one has a system that can last 5 days without power like Sandy caused. I would love to have an off the grid solar system with a natural gas backup generator. But that is illegal and if the GND ever passed would always be illegal. I want the law to change so I only pay for what I use and neither subsidize others nor be subsidized.

You guys seriously need new people elected to run those States. That is I've of the dumbest laws I've ever heard of. Banning people from having their own off the grid solar power system?

So you have to pay for the panels but then have to sell the power to the utility company?

The only way I'd accept that is if the utility company paid for the panels.

Install an illegal transfer switch and let them send the solar Gestapo to find it in your garage or basement!

 

[Lensman]

In the Northeast, both NY and NJ require all residential solar systems to be connected to the grid first then battery backup. In other words they require you to suffer any power outage like everyone else. Yes you can have a system that gives you 24 hours of power but no one has a system that can last 5 days without power like Sandy caused. I would love to have an off the grid solar system with a natural gas backup generator. But that is illegal and if the GND ever passed would always be illegal. I want the law to change so I only pay for what I use and neither subsidize others nor be subsidized.

I believe you have access to information that backs this up, so I'm not doubting you.

What I'd like to know is whether this FAQ from PSE&G is incorrect. It says:

[Q:] Will my solar energy system operate if PSE&G experiences an electric outage?
[A:] In most cases, your system will automatically shut down in the event of an outage to protect utility workers as they restore power. However, some system designs include isolation circuitry that allows continued operation. We recommend that you discuss with your solar contractor.

An additional oddity is this thread from a Tesla forum, https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/power-wall-2-nj-ny.99875/

Yes @bart513, we have solar panels -- a 10 kW roof top system with 42 microinverters (1 megawatt produced per month) which supplies about 50% of our usage. Because we live in NJ where 1) we pay the same price for electricity all day long (no cheaper rates at night) and 2) we have net metering so we sell back at the same price that we buy electricity -- the Powerwall really only has value as a back up system if the power goes out. This is NOT the case in all locations in the country or the world. For use as grid back up, it would only make sense to get Powerwalls if one also has solar panels. Without solar panels the back up would not last long and there would be no way to recharge without solar if the grid was down. Along those same lines, we are only getting 2 Powerwalls because it doesn't make sense to have more storage than the solar can generate in one day. Since this is less than our full daily needs, we plan to only back up certain critical things. The Tesla HPWCs in the garage and house air conditioning are among the items that are NOT part of the back up. If the electrical grid is down we would need to trickle charge our cars using a 110v outlet.

Like I said, I'm not doubting you on this for New Jersey as I have a friend there who is actively looking to do this but hasn't pulled the trigger. He would not be interested in such a system if his Powerwall was not allowed to charge off of his solar array. Of note his Powerwall would not be eligible for the Federal Renewable Energy Tax Credit if his Powerwall wasn't charging off of his solar array.

Also, what does the Green New Deal have to do with solar interconnection agreements in New York and New Jersey?

 

[GoofGoof]

You guys seriously need new people elected to run those States. That is I've of the dumbest laws I've ever heard of. Banning people from having their own off the grid solar power system?

So you have to pay for the panels but then have to sell the power to the utility company?

The only way I'd accept that is if the utility company paid for the panels.

Install an illegal transfer switch and let them send the solar Gestapo to find it in your garage or basement!

You can have a completely off the grid power system in any state as far as I know. That means you are completely detached from the grid and on your own for power.

What you can’t have in a lot of states is a solar system with a personal battery for backup but it is also hooked up to the grid. With net metering you get a huge benefit already so they aren’t going to extend it further and allow you to essentially have a mostly free backup from the grid. In most areas line charges are passed on to customers based on usage so if you don’t draw power you pay nothing but the power company needs to maintain those lines and be available if/when you draw power.

They also say there could be a risk to the line workers if your system is still leaking power to the grid during an outage. When they shut down power to do repairs the workers aren’t expecting the potential surges of power from your system. I think the money is a bigger factor but I wouldn’t want to be the cause of someone getting seriously hurt or killed.

 

[DisneyCane]

You can have a completely off the grid power system in any state as far as I know. That means you are completely detached from the grid and on your own for power.

What you can’t have in a lot of states is a solar system with a personal battery for backup but it is also hooked up to the grid. With net metering you get a huge benefit already so they aren’t going to extend it further and allow you to essentially have a mostly free backup from the grid. In most areas line charges are passed on to customers based on usage so if you don’t draw power you pay nothing but the power company needs to maintain those lines and be available if/when you draw power.

They also say there could be a risk to the line workers if your system is still leaking power to the grid during an outage. When they shut down power to do repairs the workers aren’t expecting the potential surges of power from your system. I think the money is a bigger factor but I wouldn’t want to be the cause of someone getting seriously hurt or killed.

There shouldn't be a safety issue if the solar system is isolated from the grid like a backup generator using a transfer switch. The only difference is the utility becomes the backup when the solar system doesn't have enough juice and needs to recharge the batteries.

 

[Lensman]

You can have a completely off the grid power system in any state as far as I know. That means you are completely detached from the grid and on your own for power.

What you can’t have in a lot of states is a solar system with a personal battery for backup but it is also hooked up to the grid. With net metering you get a huge benefit already so they aren’t going to extend it further and allow you to essentially have a mostly free backup from the grid. In most areas line charges are passed on to customers based on usage so if you don’t draw power you pay nothing but the power company needs to maintain those lines and be available if/when you draw power.

They also say there could be a risk to the line workers if your system is still leaking power to the grid during an outage. When they shut down power to do repairs the workers aren’t expecting the potential surges of power from your system. I think the money is a bigger factor but I wouldn’t want to be the cause of someone getting seriously hurt or killed.

Where are you getting your information? Everyone I've talked to contradicts your assertions about New York and New Jersey, including solar contractors in New Jersey and PSE&G, my friend's New Jersey utility. Are we somehow talking about two different systems?

Also, you don't seem to have read the replies earlier about the transfer switch that is required in order to isolate your house from the grid in the event of an outage. It's the same kind of switch that you have to use when you have a whole house generator backup.

Finally, I'm not sure how monetary incentive by utilities is involved. The worst case for utilities is net metering without battery backup because they have to take the full generation of your home during peak daylight hours while providing you that electricity back at night. In this case you're using the utility as your battery and with net metering it's a free battery.

 

[jt04]

Solar is good for dealing with peak demands from air conditioning in sunnier climates. It is a niche technology. The entire resort would have to be covered by panels to power all of wdw. Tickets would be unaffordable. WDW powered by renewables is real fantasy world. Truth.

Want an Energy Revolution?

Throughout history, some 60 percent to 90 percent of every nation’s economy has been consumed by food and fuel costs. Hydrocarbons changed the way that humans organize their productive capacity. The coal age, followed by the oil age, and now by the ascendant age of natural gas, has (at least for...

www.city-journal.org

 

[Mike730]

Solar is good for dealing with peak demands from air conditioning in sunnier climates. It is a niche technology. The entire resort would have to be covered by panels to power all of wdw. Tickets would be unaffordable. WDW powered by renewables is real fantasy world. Truth.

Want an Energy Revolution?

Throughout history, some 60 percent to 90 percent of every nation’s economy has been consumed by food and fuel costs. Hydrocarbons changed the way that humans organize their productive capacity. The coal age, followed by the oil age, and now by the ascendant age of natural gas, has (at least for...

www.city-journal.org

JT,

Stick to Disney and leave your think-tank garbage on the political forums.

Thanks,

 

[jt04]

JT,

Stick to Disney and leave your think-tank garbage on the political forums.

Thanks,

We need a physics forum.

I was more than amazed by the analogies in the article. Great perspective. Hate seeing people living in the dark due to lack of information. And I mean that literally also due to lack of electricity.

 

[Lensman]

Solar is good for dealing with peak demands from air conditioning in sunnier climates. It is a niche technology. The entire resort would have to be covered by panels to power all of wdw. Tickets would be unaffordable. WDW powered by renewables is real fantasy world. Truth.

Want an Energy Revolution?

Throughout history, some 60 percent to 90 percent of every nation’s economy has been consumed by food and fuel costs. Hydrocarbons changed the way that humans organize their productive capacity. The coal age, followed by the oil age, and now by the ascendant age of natural gas, has (at least for...

www.city-journal.org

I've been more impressed by the perspective from the Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF) group. They do technology and market analyses in renewable energy, power and utilities, energy smart technologies and storage, transport, [natural] gas, and carbon markets and climate negotiations.

BloombergNEF

BloombergNEF is a research organization that helps energy professionals generate opportunities.

about.bnef.com

Their 2018 Outlook forecasts that based on market forces (not additional government action or regulation), nearly 50% of the world's electricity will be supplied by wind and solar. If you add in nuclear, hydro, and other renewables that percentage is 71%. They expect the percentage of electricity generated by fossil fuels to be 29%, down from 71% today.

They do forecast *some* price decreases to drive this transition, with PV construction costs dropping 71% by 2050 and wind construction costs dropping 50%.

This video from their presentation at CSIS a year ago goes into more detail than is available for public download.


If you're a BNEF client with access to the full report, I have a few questions that I was wondering about, so please ping me.

I'm also very much looking forward to their 2019 report, which I hope will be out shortly.

 

[jt04]

I've been more impressed by the perspective from the Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF) group. They do technology and market analyses in renewable energy, power and utilities, energy smart technologies and storage, transport, [natural] gas, and carbon markets and climate negotiations.

BloombergNEF

BloombergNEF is a research organization that helps energy professionals generate opportunities.

about.bnef.com

Their 2018 Outlook forecasts that based on market forces (not additional government action or regulation), nearly 50% of the world's electricity will be supplied by wind and solar. If you add in nuclear, hydro, and other renewables that percentage is 71%. They expect the percentage of electricity generated by fossil fuels to be 29%, down from 71% today.

They do forecast *some* price decreases to drive this transition, with PV construction costs dropping 71% by 2050 and wind construction costs dropping 50%.

This video from their presentation at CSIS a year ago goes into more detail than is available for public download.


If you're a BNEF client with access to the full report, I have a few questions that I was wondering about, so please ping me.

I'm also very much looking forward to their 2019 report, which I hope will be out shortly.

Germany had similar optimistic projections about 20 years ago but I believe are now using more coal than ever and still planning to shut down reactors over time. If the Germans can't make renewables viable then maybe the tech isn't ready for primetime.

 

[Mike730]

We need a physics forum.

I was more than amazed by the analogies in the article. Great perspective. Hate seeing people living in the dark due to lack of information. And I mean that literally also due to lack of electricity.

It will agree that some of the analogies presented are helpful but the author can't see the forest for the trees. So much so, that my only option is to assume it is on purpose. Though, I admire your interest in sharing information.

 

[jt04]

It will agree that some of the analogies presented are helpful but the author can't see the forest for the trees. So much so, that my only option is to assume it is on purpose. Though, I admire your interest in sharing information.

I found the article to be realistic. Bill Gates also is of the opinion nuclear and breakthrough technologies will be critical to future energy needs. Fortunately we have fossil fuels to use in the interim.

 

[Lensman]

Germany had similar optimistic projections about 20 years ago but I believe are now using more coal than ever and still planning to shut down reactors over time. If the Germans can't make renewables viable then maybe the tech isn't ready for primetime.

You've presented what you thought to be valuable information for the readers here, and I posted some additional information that I thought would be valuable for the readers here. I don't think it's particularly on-topic to debate the two.

If anyone has any questions about either of these, please feel free to create a new topic in the Chit Chat forum (unless you want to discuss politics, in which case you should create a new topic in the Political Brawling forum), or you can DM me.

Bill Gates also is of the opinion nuclear and breakthrough technologies will be critical to future energy needs. Fortunately we have fossil fuels to use in the interim.

For the record, I am very hopeful about Generation III and Generation IV nuclear reactors. I temper this hope against my disappointment that fusion has remained 50 years away for the last 50 years. Just kidding, I know the research situation is better with Gen IV (fission) reactors.

If you're interested in nuclear, you should contribute to the following thread from earlier this year:

Disney may lose its right to build a nuclear power station

Interesting read on the Orlando Sentinel about Disney's right to build a nuclear power station, and moves to remove that right by legislators. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-disney-nuclear-20190214-story.html

forums.wdwmagic.com

 

[Lensman]

Is the original poster, @PhotoDave219, still around? I wanted to ask him to link the start of the discussion of the second PV farm in his original post:

Solar power farm coming to Disney

agreed this just came up in my Facebook at the same time. Can we go back to covering the parking lots with solar? All you need is a willing partner. Tampa Airport unveiled the TECO installation on top of its parking garage. Cars go under for shade, TECO installed and operates it and then pays...

forums.wdwmagic.com

If no, maybe @wdwmagic could? Either that or split this thread.

 

[GoofGoof]

Solar is good for dealing with peak demands from air conditioning in sunnier climates. It is a niche technology. The entire resort would have to be covered by panels to power all of wdw. Tickets would be unaffordable. WDW powered by renewables is real fantasy world. Truth.

Want an Energy Revolution?

Throughout history, some 60 percent to 90 percent of every nation’s economy has been consumed by food and fuel costs. Hydrocarbons changed the way that humans organize their productive capacity. The coal age, followed by the oil age, and now by the ascendant age of natural gas, has (at least for...

www.city-journal.org

It’s not a niche technology. Solar is actually getting close to being the same cost as fossil plants in a lot of markets. I don’t need to post some obscure stuff from the internet, I work in the energy industry for a company that owns a whole lot of conventional fossil fuel power plants and I can tell you for certain that everyone in the industry is taking solar pretty serious.

A couple of other points. The entire resort would not need to be covered by solar panels. The current project which covers 270 acres will provide the equivalent of 10% of the power used at WDW. If they just duplicated this project 10 times they would hit 100% only using about 10% of the total acres. That isn’t likely to happen. It’s more likely they would add additional solar on buildings or over existing parking lots as well to get to that number.

One major point to consider is the solar output is all during the daylight hours so without batteries if they wanted to produce enough power from solar to equal 100% of power used they would need to dump excess power to the grid during the day and pull power from the grid at night. In an overly simple example if they use 1MW per hour or 24MWs total per day and the sun shines 8 hours a day they would need to build a 3MW solar array to produce the 24MWs used each day. During the day 1MW is used and 2MWs are sold to the grid. At night they would pull 1MW per hour off the grid.

 

[GoofGoof]

Germany had similar optimistic projections about 20 years ago but I believe are now using more coal than ever and still planning to shut down reactors over time. If the Germans can't make renewables viable then maybe the tech isn't ready for primetime.

I’m not an expert on Germany, but I believe renewables exceed coal for power production there. Coal got a temporary lifeline in 2011 after Fukajima when Germany immediately shuttered half of their nuclear plants and came up with a plan to close the rest by 2022. Coal plants that were at risk to be shuttered back then had their lives extended to make up for the loss of all that nuclear power but they definitely are not building new coal plants. Here’s a chart with the mix of sources of electricity. This is installed capacity not actual production. You can see the drop in nuclear in 2011 but most of the pick up is in nat gas and renewables (which more than doubled). Coal continues to slowly decline.

Edit: Here is actual power produced. Renewables and coal are about the same in 2018

 

[GoofGoof]

I found the article to be realistic. Bill Gates also is of the opinion nuclear and breakthrough technologies will be critical to future energy needs. Fortunately we have fossil fuels to use in the interim.

Nuclear is dead. Not because of politics or environmental concerns or fear of accidents. It’s pure economics. The cost to build and operate natural gas and renewable plants makes nuclear un-economic. In the US a number of states recently passed subsidies to prop up the economics of existing nuclear plants in de-regulated markets because without the subsidies they are no longer economic and would close. In regulated monopoly utility markets it’s still possible to build, but ask anyone in SC how they like paying for the billions in stranded costs from the failed nuclear projects there.

 

[jt04]

Nuclear is dead. Not because of politics or environmental concerns or fear of accidents. It’s pure economics. The cost to build and operate natural gas and renewable plants makes nuclear un-economic. In the US a number of states recently passed subsidies to prop up the economics of existing nuclear plants in de-regulated markets because without the subsidies they are no longer economic and would close. In regulated monopoly utility markets it’s still possible to build, but ask anyone in SC how they like paying for the billions in stranded costs from the failed nuclear projects there.

Old style nuclear plants are being phased out. New ones are coming on line mostly overseas.

Bill Gates and others are championing smaller and safer modular technology. It will happen.

 

[jt04]

I’m not an expert on Germany, but I believe renewables exceed coal for power production there. Coal got a temporary lifeline in 2011 after Fukajima when Germany immediately shuttered half of their nuclear plants and came up with a plan to close the rest by 2022. Coal plants that were at risk to be shuttered back then had their lives extended to make up for the loss of all that nuclear power but they definitely are not building new coal plants. Here’s a chart with the mix of sources of electricity. This is installed capacity not actual production. You can see the drop in nuclear in 2011 but most of the pick up is in nat gas and renewables (which more than doubled). Coal continues to slowly decline.
View attachment 370267
Edit: Here is actual power produced. Renewables and coal are about the same in 2018
View attachment 370272

Dont forget to factor in they are having to import power from countries that use fossil fuels and nuclear more and more at greater expense. Some Germans call their electric bills 'their second mortgage'. Renewables are very expensive. The poor and lower middle class are most affected.

 

[jt04]

It’s not a niche technology. Solar is actually getting close to being the same cost as fossil plants in a lot of markets. I don’t need to post some obscure stuff from the internet, I work in the energy industry for a company that owns a whole lot of conventional fossil fuel power plants and I can tell you for certain that everyone in the industry is taking solar pretty serious.

A couple of other points. The entire resort would not need to be covered by solar panels. The current project which covers 270 acres will provide the equivalent of 10% of the power used at WDW. If they just duplicated this project 10 times they would hit 100% only using about 10% of the total acres. That isn’t likely to happen. It’s more likely they would add additional solar on buildings or over existing parking lots as well to get to that number.

One major point to consider is the solar output is all during the daylight hours so without batteries if they wanted to produce enough power from solar to equal 100% of power used they would need to dump excess power to the grid during the day and pull power from the grid at night. In an overly simple example if they use 1MW per hour or 24MWs total per day and the sun shines 8 hours a day they would need to build a 3MW solar array to produce the 24MWs used each day. During the day 1MW is used and 2MWs are sold to the grid. At night they would pull 1MW per hour off the grid.

I'll believe it when I see it. I know nuclear and coal work.