So is anyone not going anymore? (I'm still a fan. lol)

[jloucks]

Not at all I was just interested in knowing if the folks complaining were going else where.

It seems an interesting dichotomy, the major reason for dissatisfaction seems to be the actual success of Disney.
A businesses objective is usually to bring in more customers.

Disney is damned if they do and damned if they don't

Exactly. Anytime you change a business model, those that preferred the other model more will be less satisfied. You make is sound like Disney is some how a victim. They made an intentional decision to alienate a certain portion of their customer base. Disney is not a victim. The now dissatisfied customer base are the victims. Victim is too strong a word. Maybe collateral damage? I dunno.

This board is jam packed with customers that preferred the classic or vintage model of Disney. This is not surprising as the old model was centered around a different culture. A culture of 'build a quality product, and they will come' as opposed to maximize profit by minimizing investment.

 

[Po'Rich]

ALthough no one wants to pay more, WDW is too inexpensive, the demand for the parks is exceeding supply the only solution is higher prices.

Yet, this is not the only solution. There are numerous entertainment venues that control access without resorting to pricing people out of the market. One other solution is to limit the number of entrances that are sold for any given day. This happens for concerts, sporting events, etc (and before someone states that these venues have limits based on fixed seats, many also sell standing-room tickets as well). There have been other options mentioned on these boards as well (such as increasing capacity).

The solution to just raise prices leads to a venue that is only enjoyed by the wealthy elite (which was not the original model for the parks). I'll admit that this is a solution; however, also admit that this solution is exclusionary and fairly snobbish.

 

[OneofThree]

One other solution is to limit the number of entrances that are sold for any given day.

This would provide zero revenue protection. As far this being an "exclusionary" solution and the idea that it's not in keeping with the original model, the MNC that is Disney views us as faceless, nameless guests, and it's all about the bottom line. Ultimately, I think this ship has sailed based on the current business model which relies so heavily upon the sale of trinkets made in China and food from and endless array of carts and kiosks being sold to herds of people. IMO, it would be far too risky at this point to significantly reduce attendance. I would be shocked if executive management (who are more concerned with their quarterly earnings reports than anything) would depart from the CYA mode with that sort of experiment.

 

[copcarguyp71]

Haven't been since 2013. Until we hear some really groundbreaking solutions for crazy year round lines, FP+ dismantle and diminished experience I don't see us going back for a while. Maybe someday, but definitely not tomorrow either.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I would go every day if I could.

 

[winstongator]

My guess is that park ticket prices would need to double to get crowds back under control, the hotels are already appropriately priced it seems to me, but the park tickets could reasonably be doubled to get crowds under control. It can cost $150 for a lift ticket at a ski resort, WDW could charge $200 a day and make as much if not more money off of thinner crowds and although it would mean complaints from lots of people those folks would still go and just make shorter visits. Ultimately the only cure for over crowding is higher prices. I know I'd pay 200 a a day if it meant early 2000s crowds levels. I'd make shorter visits but if you can ride twice as many rides per day its worth paying twice as much.

Its not the ticket price you need to consider but the price per ride, and if you can get smaller crowds a more expensive ticket price may actually end up as the same or less per ride. ALthough no one wants to pay more WDW is too inexpensive, the demand for the parks is exceeding supply the only solution is higher prices.

If they doubled ticket prices and saw early 2000's crowds (80% of today's), they'd have 60% more park entry revenue.

At instantly double prices, people would not feel the same value, perhaps even if you got the same $/ride. As an AP, my $/day is around 50, and I probably get about 5 rides per day, on average. Plus, I'd pay 3-4x to ride Flight of Passage vs. It's a Small World.

Also, WDW wants crowds. People spend a lot in addition to their park ticket. What they also want is a great user experience. That's why they came up with the original fastpass system. People complained about waiting in lines.

https://www.acast.com/theunofficial...ll/episode-100-the-guy-that-invented-fastpass

I avoid lines with my 3 fp+ and getting to the parks early. I booked an Epcot resort to get Frozen Ever After Thanksgiving week at 60-days (2016). Was at my computer to get them, and they're not there...We end up doing two trips in October, rope drop Epcot each time, and get <30 min waits.

 

[Po'Rich]

This would provide zero revenue protection. As far this being an "exclusionary" solution and the idea that it's not in keeping with the original model, the MNC that is Disney views us as faceless, nameless guests, and it's all about the bottom line. Ultimately, I think this ship has sailed based on the current business model which relies so heavily upon the sale of trinkets made in China and food from and endless array of carts and kiosks being sold to herds of people. IMO, it would be far too risky at this point to significantly reduce attendance. I would be shocked if executive management (who are more concerned with their quarterly earnings reports than anything) would depart from the CYA mode with that sort of experiment.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I was responding to people on these boards that continue to suggest that rising prices is the only way to curb the crowding issue. Actually, I think Disney corp is more concerned with how to make lower attended time into higher attended times. I also don't think they really want to have less crowds. After all, admission is just a fraction of what they make from guests in the park.

However, I also wanted to point out to those who continue to promote raising prices as a solution that they are advocating for a more enjoyable experience (to them) at the cost of others who now no longer can afford to go. Hence, it is an "exclusionary" solution.

 

[jimbojones]

Yet, this is not the only solution. There are numerous entertainment venues that control access without resorting to pricing people out of the market. One other solution is to limit the number of entrances that are sold for any given day. This happens for concerts, sporting events, etc (and before someone states that these venues have limits based on fixed seats, many also sell standing-room tickets as well). There have been other options mentioned on these boards as well (such as increasing capacity).

The solution to just raise prices leads to a venue that is only enjoyed by the wealthy elite (which was not the original model for the parks). I'll admit that this is a solution; however, also admit that this solution is exclusionary and fairly snobbish.

I don't disagree with you that it is not the only solution, but the problem with adding capacity is called induced demand. Adding capacity increases crowds it does not diminish them. As can be seen with the recent additions more people come to see the "new thing" rather than the same number of visitors being spread accross more attractions. And setting a lower admissions quota lowers earnings which Disney is 100% not going to do. Raising prices might not be the only solution that cold be pursued but I see it as the only solution that might actually happen as long as Disney is a for profit enterprise.

As to being a vacation for the wealthy elite, WDW is already an elitist vacation. The price of a week stay at WDW is the same as it costs to charter a yacht in the Caribbean for a week. Actually the last time I checked the yacht charter was a little cheaper . Pricing admission so that people spend 2 or 3 days and not 5 or 6 is a reasonable response to overcrowding. People would complain and whine (including me) but it would get crowds under control and WDW could still make plenty of money.

 

[bugsbunny]

This degradation of the experience and the ridiculous price gouging is something I have been saying for a few years now on these forums, but have been vilified by the Kook Aid drinkers. I've been to WDW 60+ times over the last 25 years and at least a dozen times to DL. After my last trip to WDW in summer 2016, I was horrified at the amount of upcharges for everything, the price increases for standard fair, and the shell of a park that EPCOT and Hollywood have become. I stated all of all this and the responses here were enough for me to realize that people here are way too entrenched in pixie dust to have a real conversation about it.

I literally haven't been on these forums since then because of the futility of having a real conversation about the sky rocketing costs and I haven't been back to WDW since. Now it seems the pendulum has swung the other way and there is a LOT of upset Kool Aid drinkers for the same reasons I pointed out from my 2016 trip

It is obvious at this point that the main goal of WDW is the "disposable income" demographic. It's an absolute gold mine in the family of four that does not think twice about spending $400 for a 2 hour dessert party to watch 15 minutes of fireworks. Or $500+ to go to "special" Star Wars party in half a park. Or pay $1000/night for the new Star Wars hotel. And how about those bungalows at the Polynesian? Who in this forum can afford to stay there at those rates paying out of pocket? That is what WDW wants to build because that is the wallet they want to go after. How about those ridiculous "tents" that you could rent in MK for like $500/day? Um, yeah. At this point, nothing surprises me in what they try to go after and wring more money out of it.

The WDW I loved from 10-20 years ago is looooooooooong gone. It's over. I realize things change and that's life, but this is different. This is all about revenue and making shareholders happy. Get use to it. It is only the beginning of this slippery slope. I will eventually go back , but won't be until Star Wars land is completed, at the earliest.

 

[eliza61nyc]

This degradation of the experience and the ridiculous price gouging is something I have been saying for a few years now on these forums, but have been vilified by the Kook Aid drinkers. I've been to WDW 60+ times over the last 25 years and at least a dozen times to DL. After my last trip to WDW in summer 2016, I was horrified at the amount of upcharges for everything, the price increases for standard fair, and the shell of a park that EPCOT and Hollywood have become. I stated all of all this and the responses here were enough for me to realize that people here are way too entrenched in pixie dust to have a real conversation about it.

I literally haven't been on these forums since then because of the futility of having a real conversation about the sky rocketing costs and I haven't been back to WDW since. Now it seems the pendulum has swung the other way and there is a LOT of upset Kool Aid drinkers for the same reasons I pointed out from my 2016 trip

It is obvious at this point that the main goal of WDW is the "disposable income" demographic. It's an absolute gold mine in the family of four that does not think twice about spending $400 for a 2 hour dessert party to watch 15 minutes of fireworks. Or $500+ to go to "special" Star Wars party in half a park. Or pay $1000/night for the new Star Wars hotel. And how about those bungalows at the Polynesian? Who in this forum can afford to stay there at those rates paying out of pocket? That is what WDW wants to build because that is the wallet they want to go after. How about those ridiculous "tents" that you could rent in MK for like $500/day? Um, yeah. At this point, nothing surprises me in what they try to go after and wring more money out of it.

The WDW I loved from 10-20 years ago is looooooooooong gone. It's over. I realize things change and that's life, but this is different. This is all about revenue and making shareholders happy. Get use to it. It is only the beginning of this slippery slope. I will eventually go back , but won't be until Star Wars land is completed, at the earliest.

What do you consider a "real" conversation?

LOL, by your use of the degrading epithet "koolaide" drinkers, insinuating that those of us that still enjoy the mouse world are some how not smart tells me you don't want a "real" conversation. it seems you're upset that no one at the time agreed with you.

Now I agree, the wdw from 20 years ago is long gone. you see that as a problem, I'm slap happy that it's not the same. Now in the interest of full disclosure, I am a shareholder so yes I do expect for my investment to grow. I am also a dvc member so obviously I expect to also be a guest.

As for the bolded, as someone upstream mentioned, Disney will charge what the market will bear. Why shouldn't they? simply because you think it's ridiculous? lol, that's a bit socialist. Not sure about what "tents" you're talking about but we rent the cabana's at our hotel all the time. why? because we love them.

so basically you are horrified by the upcharges and you are mad that many folks don't have a problem with it. the thing with upcharges is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO PURCHASE THEM. lol. don't want the dessert party?? don't go to the dessert party. Don't want the 1000 a night hotel room, that's why God invented the values. Why is it diminishing your experience??

Did I miss the memo that said all vacations had to be affordable to everyone? I want to fly first class, guess what I can't afford it so I sit in coach. I want a mercedes Benz, does Diamler have a responsiblity to make their cars affordable to me?

I love the Polynesian bungalows, it's easy. I either pay the market price or I stay some where else. That is not Disney's fault, that's a consumer free market economy.

Now I also absolutely agree, the parks are more crowded. 1000% but simply don't agree on whether or not that has made my trip 20 years ago "better". but generally I don't compare it like that. For me it's extremely simple, regardless to where I travel, for the price I pay TODAY, not 10 years ago, not 15 years ago but for what it cost now, am I getting what I feel is a good value.

 

[eliza61nyc]

It's probably going to be cheaper just to go to Bora Bora.

My husband and I went to Bora Bora. It's is better named "Boring, Boring". after two days of sun and sand (and that's pretty much all you can do there) we were bored witless.
And no it's not cheaper since every thing on the Island is basically imported, except for maybe fruit, you will get gouged on the price of everything else.
I will say it's an absolutely gorgeous Island. whew, I mean national geographic type of beauty.

 

[Trust2deal]

plan on going once every other year until I die.... Trips over the years have gone from 5 day 4 night to 3 day 2 night - with target places to see/do.

 

[bugsbunny]

What do you consider a "real" conversation?

LOL, by your use of the degrading epithet "koolaide" drinkers, insinuating that those of us that still enjoy the mouse world are some how not smart tells me you don't want a "real" conversation. it seems you're upset that no one at the time agreed with you.

Let me explain by Kool Aid drinker. Basically anyone that like to put their fingers in their ears whenever anyone says anything bad about Disney. Arguing against it because you don't want to hear bad things about Disney seems to be some people's mantra on wdwmagic. As an example, I can say how WDW is overreaching solely in the name of profits when they are offering Mickey Halloween nights in AUGUST. The immediate response is usually something snooty like "Nobody is making you go" or something to that effect. Or how you responded. I bring up the fact that WDW is focused on maximum profit aimed at a certain demographic and you want to cross your arms and say "YOU DON'T HAVE TO PURCHASE THEM". That's childish. The point was that WDW is creating a 2nd class world for anyone not willing to pay.

But the reality is that they don't see the forest for the trees. Having the nights in August is about maximizing the corporate dollar. This is the best they got folks. Management is not going to sink money into something new when they can just keep trotting out the same cash cow over and over again. It's a ripple effect on other things they do and where their goals are at. Profits...period.

Disney is slowly abandoning the middle class. Unfortunately, a lot of middle class folks don't recognize this and that's why they can end up with $5k in credit card debt from what ends up to be their first and only trip to WDW.

But for now, the market is bearing it. Ticket prices keep rising way past the cost of living, attendance is already down because of it, but profits are up. That formula is working for management, so why would then not continue that trend across the board? But it's reality and it's business. Disney needs to answer to shareholder and valuation, not you.

 

[OneofThree]

The point was that WDW is creating a 2nd class world for anyone not willing to pay.

Disney is slowly abandoning the middle class. Unfortunately, a lot of middle class folks don't recognize this and that's why they can end up with $5k in credit card debt from what ends up to be their first and only trip to WDW.

I agree that Disney has long since abandoned commitment to any ideals beyond pure profit, the above statements make no sense to me. There is nothing 2nd class about any vacation (certainly not to Disney World), and the idea that Disney is somehow responsible for individuals' personal finances is strange. We're not talking about buying diapers and formula here.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Let me explain by Kool Aid drinker. Basically anyone that like to put their fingers in their ears whenever anyone says anything bad about Disney. Arguing against it because you don't want to hear bad things about Disney seems to be some people's mantra on wdwmagic. As an example, I can say how WDW is overreaching solely in the name of profits when they are offering Mickey Halloween nights in AUGUST. The immediate response is usually something snooty like "Nobody is making you go" or something to that effect. Or how you responded. I bring up the fact that WDW is focused on maximum profit aimed at a certain demographic and you want to cross your arms and say "YOU DON'T HAVE TO PURCHASE THEM". That's childish. The point was that WDW is creating a 2nd class world for anyone not willing to pay.

But the reality is that they don't see the forest for the trees. Having the nights in August is about maximizing the corporate dollar. This is the best they got folks. Management is not going to sink money into something new when they can just keep trotting out the same cash cow over and over again. It's a ripple effect on other things they do and where their goals are at. Profits...period.

Disney is slowly abandoning the middle class. Unfortunately, a lot of middle class folks don't recognize this and that's why they can end up with $5k in credit card debt from what ends up to be their first and only trip to WDW.

But for now, the market is bearing it. Ticket prices keep rising way past the cost of living, attendance is already down because of it, but profits are up. That formula is working for management, so why would then not continue that trend across the board? But it's reality and it's business. Disney needs to answer to shareholder and valuation, not you.

But that's how business work, by your analogy because I have not had a raise, Disney shouldn't raise it's ticket prices. I mean that would be lovely but it would also be a fairy tale.

I guess I can't understand this "idea" that Disney has to be big non profit entity where everyone gets to go affordably. IMO it never was that. I think people are making up this idealized fake scenario where Disney "used" to be cheap and everyone could go. yada yada yada.

Not sure about attendance being down (I have not looked at it so you may be absolutely right) because everyone here is complaining that it's too crowded.

I do not think saying "you don't have to buy them" is childish at all. I do it all the time, when I go shopping I see an item, I evaluate whether or not it's worth the price they are asking and then I decide to either buy it or not.

The dessert party is an upcharge? I'm sorry I'm not being snarky, I truly want to understand why you feel that they have to make it affordable to you??

I totally agree Disney is a business but it's not "overreaching" at all. the consumer is actually still very much in control. There is a specific reason why the Holloween party has extended into August, very simply, there is a demand for it. If those tickets were not selling, do you think the head mouse would be offering it. I have yet to be to the Holloween party nor the Christmas party. why because I don't feel like they would bring enough value to my trip to kick out the extra cash. there is nothing "childish" is someone saying "don't go".

I grew up in NYC, when I was a kid you could take your family to the theater. not only was it affordable they use to give you these things called 2-fer's. they were coupons that got you a 1/2 price tickets on the next show. NOW, I purchased tickets to see Alladin on broadway. 4 tickets was well over 400 bucks. that's what the market calls for. No one is "owed" the ability to see Alladin cheaply. I would love to see Hamilton. I'm not paying 700 for one ticket.

now I don't agree with you about all these middle class folks spending 5K for a disney vacations. I work with tons of folks who go annually for a lot less. Do they do the dessert parties? maybe not but they go and have a good time and they save to pay for it.

My friend takes her daughter to the biddi bobbie boutique thing. spends over 100 bucks for each kid to dress up and look like a princess. lol, would I do it?? nope it has no value for me whatsoever but Clare gushes about it and how her daughters love it. Disney does not owe them any discounts or the chance to make it affordable. they openly state the price and the consumer can decide if it's some thing they think has value.

One complaint I totally agreed with and am glad to see that they are making strides at is updating the parks.

 

[kybred72]

The Magic is pretty much gone. Having been there 35 times over 33 years, I can tell you that the decline has been quite apparent.

Oh this makes my heart so very sad :'( It has been YEARS (2011) since I was last at Disney World, and it would devastate to return one day and be completely disappointed.

And I want to be able to go more often, it's just SOOO dang $$$$!

 

[Crazyredheads]

I've been to Disney over a dozen times and my love for all things Disney has gone down in the recent years especially with the increasing prices in food and hotels. I just feel like DIsney Nickle and dimes you for everything now. It does remove a little of the Magic for me.

That being said, I still booked my next trip at WDW and will arriving in 5 days. This trip was planned at Disney because we are traveling with my two boys (7 and 11) and we are bringing along Grandma, Grandpa. Since they will be using ECVs, Disney seemed like a good option for ease of getting around and for family entertainment.

I do think, however, that this will be our last trip to WDW in a long time. My boys really love to travel and there are so many wonderful places around the world other than Disney. I feel like the price I pay for our family of four at WDW now has become ridiculous, especially with the Canadian Dollar being so low. The exchange is killing us.

 

[danyoung56]

These were the E tickets and you could only pick 2 of them unless you wanted to pay more...

Your memory is different from mine. I remember the standard books contained FIVE E coupons. Course, that was in DisneyLAND, so that may account for the difference.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Y


But now cost of International travel and vacationing has gone down significantly and also is alot easier to navigate thanks to the internet (in booking hotels, tourism, transportation). So relatively speaking Disney costs much more in comparison to International travel then it did cost 20-30 years ago. So if Disney continues this trend to raising prices, lowering quality, increasing crowds through short staffing, etc, then travel that is of similar cost or lower becomes much more appealing.

1000% agree with you on that. the family vacation industry has really stepped up it's game. Cruises especially, once the realm of the wealthy and older retired folks, that industry has really carved out a niche in family travel.
Mexico and many other places now have resorts that specifically cater to families.

so the mouse definitely has to watch his step.

 

[irwalt2]

As long as i can get around under my own power i will go. Anxiously awaiting to go when my son and daughter have families of their own.