Scrim Over TTA's Progress City

[FrankLapidus]

It just goes to show that he was a very practical businessman. He was not evil. He wanted and got a big advantage over all of his competition through very careful and calculated planning. He used his political clout to full extent and he wasn't afraid to play hardball. It's unrealistic to think of Walt as just a great showman. He was a very shrewd and cutthroat person when the need arose.

It would have been better if you'd said that in the first place rather than claim he was some kind of aspiring dictator.

 

[maxairmike]

The theme park for him transformed from bringing life to fantasy to testing innovation of tomorrow. He would have likely taken TWDC in an entirely different direction.

Its really jarring to think that Disney might be known as a manufacturing/industrial design company with movies as a side business and a few parks as a proving ground. If WED wouldn't have been completely overhauled and their transport and city planning had taken off...quite a thought!

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Its really jarring to think that Disney might be known as a manufacturing/industrial design company with movies as a side business and a few parks as a proving ground. If WED wouldn't have been completely overhauled and their transport and city planning had taken off...quite a thought!

Still beats 'ESPN with a few acquired IP franchises on the side'.

 

[lazyboy97o]

He was the public head of TWDC. He was the head salesman. During Walt's life the public knew very little about Roy or anyone else associated with TWDC. And what the public knew about Walt was largely the product of the massive public relations operation of TWDC designed to make Walt shine like the brightest star.

The Walt Disney Company did not exist until 1986.

 

[Clever Name]

The Walt Disney Company did not exist until 1986.

Boxing at such little semantic details is silly. But if it makes you feel better.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Boxing at such little semantic details is silly. But if it makes you feel better.

Say's the guy deliberately trying to twist organizational setups that are not unusual to this day in company towns, master planned communities and universities across the country.

 

[Clever Name]

Say's the guy deliberately trying to twist organizational setups that are not unusual to this day in company towns, master planned communities and universities across the country.

I haven't twisted anything. I've reported the facts of the matter. Sorry if you are offended. Facts are stubborn things.

 

[Clever Name]

It would have been better if you'd said that in the first place rather than claim he was some kind of aspiring dictator.

I think he would have been a benevolent dictator to those he liked. To those he disliked (any union organizer for example) he would have fired them quickly.

 

[Sped2424]

Thats because both centered around creating a utopian city. Its an idea that dates back thousands of years, Walt might have been an innovator but he didn't come up with the concept.

never claimed he did just saying what the Disney company and imagineers said, they didn't want to do that project unless he was heading it.

 

[freediverdude]

Great video though, thanks! The best thing I've seen since Horizons!

They had this one too, might as well share:

OMG all those miniature theme park rides actually moved?? Why didn't they keep the model together and working?? They ruined it!

 

[marni1971]

Why didn't they keep the model together and working?? They ruined it!

It does seem it was moved as a bit of an afterthought panic.

Carousel of Progress closed in 1973 in Disneyland. The model was not thought to fit in to any new show so was removed. Orlandos WEDway was being built. It had some spare space not required (what the space was originally planned for is anyone's guess) and so as much as would fit into Orlando was moved. It is sad it isn't the whole model, nor that Orlandos CoP had an upper level, but I guess we should be grateful any was saved. Luckily moves are afoot to preserve it either here or elsewhere should WDWco not want it in the future.

 

[unkadug]

Your questions have been answered:

1. EPCOT residents would not vote (i.e. there would be no municipal elections).

2. EPCOT residents would not own any real property.

3. All EPCOT residents would work for TWDC and/or the selected sponsors.

4. Walt and his executives would run the operation and have final say on who could live in EPCOT.

5. Walt did not like unions and he would not allow a union shop in EPCOT (the state of Florida had anti-union right to work laws on the books).

6. It was Walt Disney's intention to set up his own private government and that's just what was done after his death.

These are all facts based upon Walt's own words and his documented actions.

http://prospect.org/article/hidden-kingdom-disneys-political-blueprint

It's so good to know that your conversations with Walt were so intuitive that you know what would have transpired if EPCOT had indeed become a reality.

Perhaps you should write a book too.

BTW which site is yours, so that we know where to go to know the rest of what would have happened had Walt lived through today?

 

[FrankLapidus]

I think he would have been a benevolent dictator to those he liked. To those he disliked (any union organizer for example) he would have fired them quickly.

The key bit of that post is you think, so far what you've done is pass off your own speculation as some kind of unequivocal fact. Did you speak to Walt Disney or any of colleagues about this? Unless you did I don't know how you can have such an insight into the mind of a man who died nearly half a century ago. The facts are Progress City never became a reality, there is simply no way of knowing how it would have worked in reality if Walt had lived a little longer and pushed ahead with it. The thread is about a model that represents one of the ideas that Walt Disney didn't live to see through to completion, there's nothing sinister to it at all it's just something nice to look at in the 15-20 seconds it takes to pass it.

 

[Clever Name]

The key bit of that post is you think, so far what you've done is pass off your own speculation as some kind of unequivocal fact. Did you speak to Walt Disney or any of colleagues about this? Unless you did I don't know how you can have such an insight into the mind of a man who died nearly half a century ago. The facts are Progress City never became a reality, there is simply no way of knowing how it would have worked in reality if Walt had lived a little longer and pushed ahead with it. The thread is about a model that represents one of the ideas that Walt Disney didn't live to see through to completion, there's nothing sinister to it at all it's just something nice to look at in the 15-20 seconds it takes to pass it.

Why do you keep insisting that I am characterizing Walt's plans for EPCOT as "sinister" or "evil"? I have never said such a thing. Walt's intentions for EPCOT were clear. He wanted to profit from having a large and cheap workforce on site. He wanted absolute control. His business dealings during his life with WED and his other profit centers make his intentions abundantly clear.

As an example, look at his ownership of the Viewliner, Monorail and Disneyland Railroad and how he personally profited from those operations. The central idea in EPCOT was the transportation hub. It would have included WEDWAY People Movers and Monorails. Walt (and family via RETLAW) would have personally owned and profited from this system just as he did at Disneyland.

There is nothing sinister or evil about his plans. He wanted to make tons of money and control the operation to suit himself without any interference. It's a shame he didn't live to see the outcome of the sweet deal the State of Florida cut for WDW.

 

[FrankLapidus]

Why do you keep insisting that I am characterizing Walt's plans for EPCOT as "sinister" or "evil"?

Words like "dictatorship" kind of carry connotations of those things. When you put it like you do in your most recent post I have no problem with what you're saying, in earlier posts you've seemed to have insinuated there was a sinister side to the whole thing and judging by some of the responses you'd have had here from other posters I wasn't the only person who felt that. You say here that there was nothing sinister or evil, in an earlier post you labelled it a "total dictatorship" or something along those lines, you can't really blame people for taken it in a way you might have not intended it when you use phrases like that.

 

[unkadug]

 

[Clever Name]

Words like "dictatorship" kind of carry connotations of those things. When you put it like you do in your most recent post I have no problem with what you're saying, in earlier posts you've seemed to have insinuated there was a sinister side to the whole thing and judging by some of the responses you'd have had here from other posters I wasn't the only person who felt that. You say here that there was nothing sinister or evil, in an earlier post you labelled it a "total dictatorship" or something along those lines, you can't really blame people for taken it in a way you might have not intended it when you use phrases like that.

The dictatorship term was used to more accurately describe Walt's role. After all, he (via his company) would be collecting rent from the workers, and collecting tax from the workers, and charging the workers to ride his transportation system and charging for the various utilities the workers used. Since everything in EPCOT would be run, created and owned by Disney (or one of his participating sponsors), the entire operation would be reminiscent of the old company script systems although updated to comply with current law.

For the employee it might very well be a good deal in the short term. My understanding is that part of the EPCOT concept was to have a regular turnover of employees much like the college program of today.

 

[Darth Sidious]

He was the public head of TWDC. He was the head salesman. During Walt's life the public knew very little about Roy or anyone else associated with TWDC. And what the public knew about Walt was largely the product of the massive public relations operation of TWDC designed to make Walt shine like the brightest star.

I wasn't arguing with you when I posted that. Walt was the face of the company and the creative side. Roy was the business side and made those ideas come alive. They had a give and take relationship and balanced out creative and business pretty well. Then as you know Roy was all titles at TWDC (President, CEO and Chairman) for a few years after Walt's death.

 

[donaldtoo]

I just don't understand what all the bickering is about. That model is definitely a significant and important piece of Disney history, no matter how you slice it.

 

[stlphil]

The plane projection and the ferris wheel are the only things I remember having movement.


This is one of those places on a ride I wish I could break down at, so I could sit and check the model out for a while.

I've always felt that the carousel of progress at Disney World was never nearly as satisfying (or as popular) as it was at Disneyland, because it was missing its essential final act. After seeing the animatronic family in the final segment on the turntable, riding up to the upper level and seeing the model made the "beautiful tomorrow" seem tangible and real.

As a kid I was mesmerized by that model, and felt like I could have spent hours looking at it. My recollection was that my parents had to drag me out of there every time. While it's still nice to see it briefly, it's current setting doesn't really do it justice. I wish they hadn't cut corners when building the COP in Florida, and included the second floor as they should have.