Screamscape - Monorail Expansion Rumor

[s8film40]

The buses could be quicker and more efficient. They will never approach what an on rails form of transportation can do in terms of volume when just going from A to B but more of them with shorter stops would start bridging the gap. They are also so much more flexible than anything on rails.

Park hopping has only little effect on spending for an on property guest using solely Disney transportation. They are basically stuck eating three meals a day somewhere on property so going from Epcot to MK is not all that likely to make them eat a 4th meal. Spending on merchandise is fairly consistent. I am sure they make a little extra here and there but when you back out what it costs to get them from one park to another it is not much. If they were raking in the cash by people going from one park to another they would let people do it for free.

Yeah I'm sorry buses aren't quick and efficient and monorails can be just as flexible as buses even more so. If you think buses truly are the answer for Disney's future transportation needs than you are just as out of it as the executives in charge right now.

If the logic behind you business plan is that you have people trapped anyways so they don't need options you will eventually fail, unfortunately many people at Disney do indeed think this way. I can tell you though there are large number of off property hotel rooms these aren't there just for show. Millions of people choose not to stay at a Disney hotel and if they are leaving for the day at MK and have the option of easy transportation to another park they are far more inclined to do so rather than go to an off property restaurant on the way back to their hotel.

 

[Blueliner]

The water canals are used for drainage control and there are levees with gates that open and close to adjust the water levels, a way would have to be found to go around this and have it still perform its function.

Interesting. I have no idea what it would take to regain control over the water levels if they created more navigable waterways.

 

[Kamikaze]

This is very straightforward analysis. Someone calls up the TA or Disney directly, and the TA says, "Would you like to add park hopping? You can now easily take the monorail to all four parks, making park hopping quick, easy, and fun. Spend your morning on a Safari, eat lunch in Japan, and watch fireworks by the Castle, and be whisked between all these things on a monorail." That's not worth an extra $2 per person, per year (on average)? You don't think, on average, you could get an extra $5 per person by having a family either spend one more meal on property, or an extra light-stick thingy by going to fireworks at MK instead of back to the hotel?

Its still not going to be 'quick, easy, and fun'. You are going to have to transfer. Not fun. I want my direct routes between A and B. There is no feasible way to have direct on-rail routes between everything.

So give me buses, save the cost increases on everything.

 

[orky8]

Its still not going to be 'quick, easy, and fun'. You are going to have to transfer. Not fun. I want my direct routes between A and B. There is no feasible way to have direct on-rail routes between everything.

So give me buses, save the cost increases on everything.

Dude, are you talking about? 1 line, all four parks. I have repeated that over, and over, and over again. At least add something constructive to the coversation.

 

[s8film40]

Interesting. I have no idea what it would take to regain control over the water levels if they created more navigable waterways.

Yep, these things are all throughout the canals.

 

[Master Yoda]

If the logic behind you business plan is that you have people trapped anyways so they don't need options you will eventually fail, unfortunately many people at Disney do indeed think this way. I can tell you though there are large number of off property hotel rooms these aren't there just for show. Millions of people choose not to stay at a Disney hotel and if they are leaving for the day at MK and have the option of easy transportation to another park they are far more inclined to do so rather than go to an off property restaurant on the way back to their hotel.

It has noting to do with options. The argument was that park hopping makes Disney a good sum of profit and more efficient transportation between parks would increase this. While I do not doubt that a quick transportation link between all of the parks would increase park hopping, my issue is with park hopping being a big revenue generator. If it does generate so much profit, why does Disney charge guests to do this?

 

[s8film40]

Dude, are you talking about? 1 line, all four parks. I have repeated that over, and over, and over again. At least add something constructive to the coversation.

He's saying he would rather spend an hour to get where he needs to go than have to make a transfer on a monorail. Most guests though aren't just simply anti-monorail you tell them they have to transfer monorails they are generally pretty okay with it, you tell them they have to transfer buses forget about it, they know how that goes.

 

[s8film40]

It has noting to do with options. The argument was that park hopping makes Disney a good sum of profit and more efficient transportation between parks would increase this. While I do not doubt that a quick transportation link between all of the parks would increase park hopping, my issue is with park hopping being a big revenue generator. If it does generate so much profit, why does Disney charge guests to do this?

Obviously to make even more revenue. They charge extra for the feature and also make more money from sales in the park. This is the reason they charge a very small amount for it. In disney ticketing terms park hopping is equivalent to adding a day.

 

[Kamikaze]

Dude, are you talking about? 1 line, all four parks. I have repeated that over, and over, and over again. At least add something constructive to the coversation.

It can't work that way. There is not enough capacity on a train. The trains would fill up at one resort and have to bypass all the rest. Just doesn't make any sense. I don't know how you could possibly think that a single line serving 24 resorts, four parks, and all the miscellaneous could possibly handle the amount of people. It isn't like buses where one can bypass or just go directly to a location. They would have to cycle that entire loop just to get where they are needed.

And then the waits ... oh my. If you happened to have to take the entire loop around from your hotel, say you were the first stop after MK, and you wanted to go there ... at say 2 minutes per stop and a minimum of 26 stops, you aren't getting there for 52 minutes. Not going to work for anyone.

 

[Master Yoda]

Obviously to make even more revenue. They charge extra for the feature and also make more money from sales in the park. This is the reason they charge a very small amount for it. In disney ticketing terms park hopping is equivalent to adding a day.

At its lowest cost park hopping is a 18.9% increase to the ticket price. Adding it to a 2 day ticket is a 32.7% increase. I don't know about you, but a nearly 19% cost increase to an already expensive item is not a small amount in my book. About half of my clients do not get park hopping due to the added expense.

 

[s8film40]

It can't work that way. There is not enough capacity on a train. The trains would fill up at one resort and have to bypass all the rest. Just doesn't make any sense. I don't know how you could possibly think that a single line serving 24 resorts, four parks, and all the miscellaneous could possibly handle the amount of people. It isn't like buses where one can bypass or just go directly to a location. They would have to cycle that entire loop just to get where they are needed.

And then the waits ... oh my. If you happened to have to take the entire loop around from your hotel, say you were the first stop after MK, and you wanted to go there ... at say 2 minutes per stop and a minimum of 26 stops, you aren't getting there for 52 minutes. Not going to work for anyone.

Monorails can bypass stops and pass other trains. No one said they should make one giant loop that goes everywhere. The idea is to make one loop that goes to all parks and then use transportation (monorails, buses, watercraft etc.) from those "hubs" to local destinations (hotels).

 

[Kamikaze]

Monorails can bypass stops and pass other trains. No one said they should make one giant loop that goes everywhere. The idea is to make one loop that goes to all parks and then use transportation (monorails, buses, watercraft etc.) from those "hubs" to local destinations (hotels).

Read the post I quoted before replying, please. Most notably the '1 line, all four parks' part. I stated that I didn't want to transfer. His argument was 'one line, all parks'. If you're leaving everything except the parks and those 'hubs' off the line, thats much different. Once again - if you're putting someone on a bus, why not just take them directly to the park? Thats what I would want, and I know most people would feel the same way.

And while I realize that you can have 'bypass' routes around stops, that only applies to dead-heading trains starting their day. You can't bypass a stop that someone on the train might want to get off on. I suppose a completely empty train at the end of the day can do it as well, but thats not even something to worry about.

 

[orky8]

It can't work that way. There is not enough capacity on a train. The trains would fill up at one resort and have to bypass all the rest. Just doesn't make any sense. I don't know how you could possibly think that a single line serving 24 resorts, four parks, and all the miscellaneous could possibly handle the amount of people. It isn't like buses where one can bypass or just go directly to a location. They would have to cycle that entire loop just to get where they are needed.

And then the waits ... oh my. If you happened to have to take the entire loop around from your hotel, say you were the first stop after MK, and you wanted to go there ... at say 2 minutes per stop and a minimum of 26 stops, you aren't getting there for 52 minutes. Not going to work for anyone.

OK, there's the misunderstanding. I don't think the monorail could replace all the busses, or even most of them. And while it would be awesome if they could build a personal transportation bubble ala Incredibles that goes wherever you want, I just don't see that ever happening, sadly.

All I'm talking about is connecting the four theme parks onto one loop, and adding a stop along that loop for the Epcot resorts. If you are not at the Epcot resorts or the MK resorts, you will be taking busses. But park hopping (from one park to the next) would be quick, easy, and fun. For the reasons mentioned above, I believe those things would add enough revenue to pay for the expansion I am proposing. 1) increased revenue from park hopping, and 2) increased revenue from room rates at the Epcot resorts.

It would probably also make sense to add a seperate loop to DTD by way of the resorts on that side of property, but I don't have the time or inclination to run those numbers.

Yes, I understand this does not solve all the transportation issues, or really even very many of them. But that does not mean it is not justifiable.

 

[flynnibus]

And while Flyinnbus seems to think parkhopping has no value (which is contrary to all evidence and the fact that they charge to in fact do this)

No - that's not what I said at all. But I about spit out my drink when I read people are arguing people don't visit parks because they aren't on the monorail (instead of actually what is in the park) and that the lack of monorail is what keeps people from park hopping.

Wanting to ride EE or TSMM is going to dictate if they want to goto a park.. not 'eww.. a bus??'.

I can see it now.. the Booking Agent on the phone saying ' Sir, would you like to add park hopper privileges to your ticket? It allows you to experience multiple parks in the same day'

Customer: "Are those additional parks on the monorail? If not, I don't want it. I'll ride a bus to get to the park if its my first park of the day.. but no way do I want to switch parks via bus.."

:ROFLOL::ROFLOL::ROFLOL:

And I'm tired of you pretending I don't answer your questions (and aren't we really all on the same team here?!?)

Because you don't see the difference between

Identifying a problem and proposing solutions for them
vs what you are doing which is
'I wish there was this cool thing.. and here's how I'd justify it'

You're setting the solution before you even agree what the problem that needs solving is.

If the monorail took people 90mins to get from A to B - you can guarantee they'd complain about the monorail just as much as buses. And you would have sunk billions into a trophy project without solving the problems. Such a solution would never get out of a dreamers head because you set out to 'improve the transportation system' - yet you don't address any of the problems. The decision makers would throw you out.

If you want to 'build a cool new attraction at WDW' - fine.. continue down this path.
But if you want to 'fix transportation at WDW' - you need to start off by identifying what the problems for guests and operations is... prioritize them.. value them.. and then propose solutions on how to address them and weigh the proposed solutions.

You clearly think like the current suits, which is a lack of "hey wow, we are Disney and our guests shouldn't have to take busses between our theme parks."

No - I think like every customer out there. 'Here are my problems, how are you going to fix them?'. If you don't fix them, you suck. That's what the customer in transportation is about today.

You are measuring success by 'its a monorail?? Ok, win!'. As opposed to actually addressing the current limitations and complaints of the system.

You can't do the latter if you don't know what the problems and limitations are. And you don't want to accept what those current problems are because the monorail doesn't help them.

The real problems with the system today are
#1 - people don't like transfers
#2 - people don't like the wait for a transportation vehicle
#3 - people don't like the vehicle showing up and not having space for them causing them to wait longer
#4 - People are concerned about the total time needed to move between resorts and attractions, and attraction to attraction
#5 - complaints about passenger space and lack of per passenger seats
#6 - Americans have a stigma against buses as 'poor people' transport
#7 - Existing space available at park entrances for transportation stations

The total solution needs to be able to
- route guests from any resort to any attraction or park on property
- route guests between attractions on property
- be able to get a guest from any resort to any park within X-min SLA
- be able to get a guest from any resort to any attraction within Y-min SLA
- be able to get a guest from attraction to attraction within Z-min latency
- be able to deliver passengers close enough to the attraction to not require additional transportation to the attraction itself
- be able to deliver passengers close enough to the resort or the internal resort transportation system to not require additional transfers to reach the resort itself
- be able to effectively operate with both minimal passenger load during off-peak periods as well as ramp up for peak passenger load during peek periods
- be able to be deployed without requiring relocating any existing attraction or resort
- be able to transport both passengers and ECV/wheelchairs effectively
- be able operate in all typical weather conditions, day or night
- <insert athestic desires>
- <insert energy efficency targets>
- <insert targeted overhead per passenger costs>
- <insert operational uptime targets>
- <insert assumptions on classes of service allowed if any>
etc

That is how you start off deciding 'what to build' when you are proposing to fix something.

Even when they build attractions - they start off with targets the attraction must satisfy because that's why the attraction is being built in the first place. And part of the decision of greenlighting it or not is 'will it actually fit the need'

You start by outlining the NEED to fill or PROBLEM to fix (both are really the same thing). Else, it's purely for fun/art/whatever.

And if that's the case, then stop trying to pretend it's a solution to transportation needs. If you want that kind of value associated with the project, you need to address the transportation system's needs.

 

[s8film40]

Read the post I quoted before replying, please. Most notably the '1 line, all four parks' part. If you're leaving everything except the parks and those 'hubs' off the line, thats much different. Once again - if you're putting someone on a bus, why not just take them directly to the park? Thats what I would want, and I know most people would feel the same way.

And while I realize that you can have 'bypass' routes around stops, that only applies to dead-heading trains starting their day. You can't bypass a stop that someone on the train might want to get off on. I suppose a completely empty train at the end of the day can do it as well, but thats not even something to worry about.

You said:

The trains would fill up at one resort and have to bypass all the rest

I thought you were assuming the monorail would go to all resorts since you said resort not park, sorry if I misunderstood you.

But, yes you can have a single line run to all four park and then have multiple loading options, you want to go to one park get this train the other take this one then the trains go to their destinations bypassing others. They actually used to do something similar to this with the resort line.

 

[flynnibus]

He's saying he would rather spend an hour to get where he needs to go than have to make a transfer on a monorail. Most guests though aren't just simply anti-monorail you tell them they have to transfer monorails they are generally pretty okay with it, you tell them they have to transfer buses forget about it, they know how that goes.

But you are applying that as 'monorails I'll wait for'

When that distaste is not for bus vs monorail but actually 'System-A that arrives every 5min and System-B that arrives every 20mins'

It's the cycle/wait time people are showing the affinity for - not the transportation mode itself.

 

[Master Yoda]

But you are applying that as 'monorails I'll wait for'

When that distaste is not for bus vs monorail but actually 'System-A that arrives every 5min and System-B that arrives every 20mins'

It's the cycle/wait time people are showing the affinity for - not the transportation mode itself.

Bingo! I'll take a freaking rickshaw that is waiting for me over a gleaming white monorail that arrives every 20 minutes.

 

[wickedfan07]

This could have been mentioned or suggested earlier in the thread, but I have not read all20-some pages of it. I apologize in advance if I am about to suggest something that someone else has already posted about.

Earlier in this thread and in the past, different people have suggested some sort of individualized transportation method where a family or a small group people could enter some sort of vehicle and tell it where to go and the vehicle will plot the shortest route from their location to their destination and get them there, on demand. When there is greater demand, more vehicles would be added to the system, and vice versa when demand dictates. I do not know exactly how the system works and the actual mechanics of how the vehicles get from pint A to point B. (Are the mini-monorails? Are they at ground level or elevated, etc.)

I think an interesting solution to the issue would be to overlay the monorail system with this on-demand sort of idea. If you build a netwrok of monorail beams around the resort, its a lot like building a network of "highways" or a network of "rails" for that on-deman system. The additional beams wouldn't need to be a loop necessarily. If Disney can find a better way to handle track switches (making them safer and faster), they could run any number of trains and get people anywhere in the resort without requiring a transfer to a different route or a different mode of transportation at all.

For example, imagine the monorail beams of the Epcot loop have been extended southwartd along World Drive as far as the area around the Wide world of Sports. there is another beamway built along Osceola Parkway between Animal Kingdom Lodge and Pop Century (including a stop at Animal Kingdom among other things. Imagine you are at AK and want to get to MK. you board a monorail at AK and it travels along the Osceola beamway and automatically transfers to the extended world Drive beamway without requiring you to transfer. It then travels north along World Drive to the TTC, switches beans again to the MK loop and bingo, you're at the MK without once leaving the train you boarded at AK.

If there's a way to handle track switches afely while having guests on board the monorails, the monorail beams don't have to be loops at all. that would make the entire system a lot more flexible and more efficient. It's just like building roads, just elevated and with big trains instead of cars and buses.

adding all of these spur routes and eveloping a much safer system would take some time and a great deal of money, though, so this whole thing is probably cost-rpohibitive, sadly.

 

[Knothead]

Why aren't we talking about safety? I mentioned it a few pages back, but it didn't get any response. Is that because there is no argument against the Monorail's safety record? What is the dollar amount on someones life? Do you really trust the old man behind the wheel of 40,000 lb bus exclusively with your childrens life? I don't. Especially with the way the other people who are lost out there drive.

I love the idea of being able to park my car and park hop without ever touching it again, but like others have said, if my only option is bus, I don't go. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who feels and acts this way.

 

[orky8]

My post, directly above yours (direct to Flynnibus), states IT WILL NOT SOLVE ALL THE TRANSPORTATION ISSUES. last time it was not all caps.

You've identified very real problems, and then stated what the total solution will be. The thing that meets your total solution is either a personal vehicle ala Incredibles, and who knows how much that would cost or if it is even doable (but would be wicked awesome), or a transporter device, ala Star Trek, which would be even cooler.

Ok, so. Now that we understand we can't address all the problems. There is no panacea here. Please explain to me why it would be bad to expand the monorails if both of these are true: 1) monorails to all four parks and Epcot resorts would increase revenue by $100 million / year and 2) would cost $1 billion.

Now, I don't know that they are true. But you asked for numbers, I gave you numbers, explaining why I thought it was true. I can't solve all the transportation problems. I am only proposing to solve them from the MK and Epcot resorts and betweent the four theme parks. But this limited solution, to a piece of the problems, seems doable, and even financially to be a pretty good idea.