Safe to panic now (Seas Holes!)

[WDWcouple]

im gonna go ahead and say this: they could bulldoze cinderella's castle and put in a giant paper clip and you know what? id get over it. itd be annoying, id be sad, but after awhile i would just get over it.

CLASSIC!!!!!:lol:

You better watch it.....Some may call you out for Blasphemy...your post had plenty of good points in it...... I think it just all boils down to the post 2 weeks ago related to Disney Purists vs. Traditionalists.

The great news is.....I just go to Epcot for the Beer and Beirgarten so I could care less

(Ill put on my Flame Retardant suit for that comment)

 

[CommandoDisney]

CLASSIC!!!!!:lol:

You better watch it.....Some may call you out for Blasphemy...your post had plenty of good points in it...... I think it just all boils down to the post 2 weeks ago related to Disney Purists vs. Traditionalists.

The great news is.....I just go to Epcot for the Beer and Beirgarten so I could care less

(Ill put on my Flame Retardant suit for that comment)

you are truly a great person:sohappy:

 

[CommandoDisney]

That post was so dumb (if you can't tell that was in jest -- may god have mercy on your soul)

haha

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

i get that sometimes, haha

 

[JimboJones123]

CLASSIC!!!!!:lol:

You better watch it.....Some may call you out for Blasphemy...your post had plenty of good points in it...... I think it just all boils down to the post 2 weeks ago related to Disney Purists vs. Traditionalists.

The great news is.....I just go to Epcot for the Beer and Beirgarten so I could care less

(Ill put on my Flame Retardant suit for that comment)

If you hide back by the restrooms in morocco, there is a secret place you can go to truly realize epcots potential and "free your mind". Oh, wait, it's "expand your mind" my bad.

 

[JimboJones123]

haha

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

i get that sometimes, haha

Deja Vu -- somebody else used that last week, I was either jealous and used it too -- OR I just don't have a creative bone in my body so I have to steal off somebody else stealing a movie quote. I'm such a loser -- but not as much as the next guy who says it because I did -- HAHAHAHAHA Sweet revenge! er something...

 

[ballewclan]

wow... people really spent all morning calling each other idiots over their opinions on attractions in a theme park based around a cartoon mouse... we do realize at the end of the day thats all it is, right? we love it to death of course, but really is it worth getting angry over? this was all started over holes in a mural. im gonna go ahead and say this: they could bulldoze cinderella's castle and put in a giant paper clip and you know what? id get over it. itd be annoying, id be sad, but after awhile i would just get over it. this forum is a place where fans can discuss what they love about the place and we all have the right to do that. there are very very few people at disney who know if something is indeed fact. i dont care who you are, unless its been ok'd by Iger himself, or publicly announced, anything anyone says here is just speculation, opinion, or MOST LIKELY fact based on inside knowledge they have gained. there are several people on this forum who WORK for disney or have been significant parts of developing parts of wdw but even they would say that what they know, may not always be absolutely true. fact is fact, opinion is opinion. an opinion is how you personally think the refurb of the land has turned out. a fact is observing how much more people have been going to the land since soarin was put it. the truth is, it has had a lot more people coming to it, and at the end of the day that means success. i like waht they did to the land. IMO it was boring before. i dont care about plants or how im supposed to eat or conservation (DONT GET ME WRONG!!! ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!!!!) but i got all of that from my 5th grade science class. i want to be entertained. do i need a story to do that? no. when you were a kid and went on a plane ride for the first time, did that have a story? no. was it exciting? for me it was (for those who dont like flying, probably not). and who cares where they put the monsters inc ride? they could put it in the middle of kilamanjaro safari and id still go see it. am i gonna give them a hard time abotu where they put it? no! they are disney, not our personal savior. look at the hard time they have pleasing their die-hard fans just by looking at this board how they heck do you expect them to please everyone? but people are still gonna get annoyed about what others say on this board. im an engineering major and take a lot of math and science, and i know this guy whos a psych major and every now and then he likes to lecture me about physics and what he knows and a lot of time its wrong and that really bothers me. no one likes to hear someone tell them something they personally know to be wrong as fact. that doesnt mean that anyone is an "idiot". it just really bothers me that when i take a break from my boring work to discuss something i really enjoy to find "radical extremeist" disney fans arguing about something so crazy. did any of you guys realize that you were all just basically saying the same thing? lets recap:
-everyone has a right to say waht they want and should expect people to respond however they would like as well
-change is good
-respect for original purpose of parks should be maintained

im sure theres more but i dont have the attention span to go back through that mess. so say waht ud like, you can completely disregard everything ive said because after all, who the heck am i to say this? no one. just a disney fan. just like you.

Excuse me but I just have one thing to say. Fix your post now! Your wrong! You need spaces! Its hard to read! GOSH!

Just joking but spaces would be nice.

Yes WDW is worth getting angry over if you love it that much btw. :lookaroun

 

[planet7]

The carpet in the seating "pods" is the same idea as the mural behind the children's quotes in the Living with the Land queue.

Okay, that makes a little more sense. When you said "the boat ride", I thought you meant the ride itself, and I couldn't for the life of me see the connection. I can see where you're going now, but I'm not sure that it's enough to make it really "work".

Next, the big hallways in Soarin' with the backlit scenic shots and trivia screens seemed to come out of nowhere...the scenic shots and trivia idea came from the pre-show for the Circle of Life.

A guest shouldn't have to know this for it thematically work. The fact that it appears to "come out of nowhere" means that it's not thematically working. There is almost always more background to things in Disney than the guest is aware of (take Universe of Energy's diorama, which most people don't realize, doesn't capture just a moment in time, but in fact spans nearly 300 million years, and the species from several geologic periods). But these things must work on a "surface level" and also on the "deeper level" for guests who do pick up on it. Otherwise, it's just "random decoration". It may be enjoyable, but a theme park doesn't meet its potential by randomingly throwing a few "enjoyable" things together. It's the same problem that I have with Soarin'. It may be a great ride, but it doesn't fit, at least not in its current incarnation. If they ever have the good sense to do something that truly explores the concept of The Land (views of the Earth's biomes from deserts to rainforests, and everything in between, would be not only breathtaking, but inspiring and appropriate), then it'll work. Until then, it's just a "fun experience" that doesn't work within its context.

The bottom line is, the made they location more popular, but they didn't make THE LAND more popular.

The Garden Grill is a victim of it's demographic - kids ... If anything, the 94 rehab killed Garden Grill, not the current one.

I realize that The Good Turn/Land Grille Room died an ugly death long before the current rehab. I just found it ironic that--compared to the original Land--the lower level now feels a tad more sophisticated, while the upper level is much less so. If they're not going to be consistent, it at least made more sense to have the more kid-centric area in the spacious lower level, closer to the rides, and left the upper level--more detached from the rides, and a calmer space--as the more upscale area.

As to the demographic, it doesn't have to all be about kids. The restaurant always did quite well as The Good Turn/Land Grille Room, and had an appeal to adults without eliminating kids. I think they just saw it as a good place to shoehorn in an even more profitable character meal location. They'd have done much better to revive Odyssey for that purpose. The space would work better for it, and it would allow The Land to be more upscale.

IPeople can argue all they want, but Cinderella's castle is not an upscale affair. Few WDW restaurants can be

That's why I put my previous comments within the context of a theme park environment. I agree, the restauarants by and large will never be as upscale as their counterparts in the "real world", but there's room for some range here. Cinderella's used to be much more uspcale--even with the kids--before it was turned into yet another character dining location. Ditto with the Crystal Palace.

California Grill tried to institute an "age recommendation" but it didn't work, as families wanting to watch

That's because too many guests--and people in general these days--are self-abosrbed. When I was growing up, there were places for adults (Top of the World, now Californai Grill), places for kids (several of the restaurants on the fourth floor), and places in between (again, mostly on the fourth floor). If kids were brough into more adult places, the parents had the good sense to make sure they behaved. I know those days are over, and the changes in Disney are a sign of the times, but I can't help but long for days when adults could have a meal in a more relaxed and upscale atmosphere, and kids, when present, didn't act like hellions.

it's a big improvement over the junky food of the past. Kraft made mac and cheese and miracle whip - the picnic lunch. It's moved more toward an asian infusion style faire with an emphasis on "from the land" and "raw" style foods.

I suppose that's the intent, but for me, it didn't quite come across in the execution. I love Asian food, and fresher, more natural foods (though I do still have a soft place in my heart for the handwich and cheese bread). I just didn't think the current offerings lived up to the apparent intent. They're trying to sound "froofy" without being "froofy". The food I had wasn't bad by any means, but it wasn't anything at all special, either. I've had much better meals at the local mall food court, for a lot less money.

G7

 

[planet7]

more people have been going to the land since soarin was put it. the truth is, it has had a lot more people coming to it, and at the end of the day that means success.

So if they put in strippers, and that brought in the crowds, would that be "success" as well? There's more to "success" than a temporary bump in the numbers. By this reasoning, pre-Disney amusement parks were a "success", but none on the order of the Magic Kingdom. Walt took amusement to a whole new level, created a whole new industry in effect. Now we're content to say that none of that matters, that mediocrity is okay, as long as it brings in sufficient numbers. This kind of "apologist" thinking is what allowed Eisner to cut so much, for so long, and to the long-term detriment of the Company and the product.

And before anyone yet again utters the mantra about how "fans" are crazed (not that this observation or simple common sense will stop anyone), I never, I do mean NEVER heard complaints about Disney in the past. Now in casual conversation with "non-fans", people who don't frequent and in all likelihood have never even heard of these boards, express their dissatisfaction with Disney and how far things have slid. THAT in itself is very telling.

So does this really affect my life that much? In the scheme of things, no. Is it worth posting about? Well, yes, as much as anything else here is worth posting about. I'd much rather read reasoned insights about what makes the theme parks "work" or "not work", than "hey, I like this ride".

that doesnt mean that anyone is an "idiot".

It's highly out of character for me to take comments to a personal level, but I also believe in calling a spade a spade. When someone rants hysterically, cherry-picks my messages for things to fit their rash hysteria, tells me what I think and feel when they have no clue--they're an idiot, to say the very least. Yes, I could keep that observation to myself, but sometimes it just has to be said--for myself, and for all the others who'd like to say it but don't have the nerve to.

everyone has a right to say waht they want and should expect people to respond however they would like as well

One of my personal mantras, which helps me get through the day in an increasingly uncivilized society, is that "people are going to think what they're going to think, and do what they're going to do". It helps me to realize that I have little or no control over chaos, stupidity, and aggression--but it also doesn't make any of those things right.

change is good

That's just absurd. Not all change is good, any more than all change is bad. Bulldozing the entire property would be "change", but that woudln't be "good". Well, maybe it would be. Let the swamp have it back, and begin to undo the environmental damage. Hey, you're right, all change is good!

respect for original purpose of parks should be maintained

Absolutely! :sohappy: That's what I've championed, and been bashed for, by the "all change is good" (see your own quote) and "as long as it's passably fun, mediocrity is okay" crowd.

G7

 

[planet7]

Seeing lines outside the current pavilion points to a few possibilities; screwed up traffic patterns, a popular new attraction, or the massive hype Soarin` has. I`d guess the latter two.

I think it's all three. To me, the screwed-up traffic patterns were the most troubling part. The Land used to be a pleasant and relaxing place to visit, even when it was bustling. It accomodated large numbers of people well, and had great places--by the fountain, especially--to sit and watch the world go by. Now it has the feeling of a congested airport terminal. I guess they got that part of the theming right.

Not the same for JIYI or JIIWF. Not to mention JII`s internal fixed queue area was a lot larger than versions 2 and 3.

The few times I've been (JIYI twice, first to see if it's bad as everyone said; and the second time, to make sure it wasn't all just a really bad dream; ditto for JIIWF) it's always been a walk-on.

Most telling, was after my first ride (JIYI), hearing bewildered and disappointed guests ask one another "What happened to Figment". I'm sure that after riding, they JIIWF, they'd say the same--just for a different reason.

It`s a prominent building, and some great architecture. The scale of what could be installed inside the dome is huge

I never much cared for the building myself, but I think of all the original FutureWorld buildings, it has the most potential to be re-used. The Body Wars section was/is a boxy "warehouse" show building, which I'd think could be easily retrofitted, and the dome is a wide open space with plenty of possibilities.

I think that the era of "sculptural", fully-formed and themed buildings is pretty much over, as it's too complicated and costly to retrofit them to different attractions. If that means that they can spend the money on the inside--while adequately shielding the show building--that's not an entirely bad thing. After all, they do that a lot in the Magic Kingdom. Look at Mansion, Pirates, et al. The key there is, that they more successfully hide the show building, and the facade is more "dimensional", making it much easier to "supsend disbelief". When I was a kid, I was convinced that we were actually in the Mansion itself while on the ride. You couldn't think the same of the M:S facade, which is more "flat".

Of course, the true ideal would be to create attractions with greater staying power, the ability to become classics, like Pirates or Space Mountan (another fully-formed and themed building), so they don't have to replace them so often. And, of course, update classics (like Horizons) rather than tearing them down.

G7

 

[planet7]

II remember the pavilion having a dark feel to it.... With the opening of Soarin, I went back to the Land last year..

I'm curious, if you didn't like the "dark" Land (which really puzzles me, how a pavilion with such an immense skylight could be considered "dark"), how do you feel about Innoventions? Now that place makes me very uncomfortable. I tried twice to go through it, and couldn't wait to get out.

I'll be the first to admit that Communicore was getting long in the tooth and needed an updating (yeah, that's me, that person--ahem--"against all change"), but this wasn't the way to do it. I miss the bright, open, airy feel, and the stunning views of Future World through the glass walls.

I agree with Michael, that The Seas (and Energy, and everything for that matter) would be better served by a more open Communicore. Seas especially really does feel way off the beaten path an easily "missable" now.

G7

 

[wannab@dis]

I'll be the first to admit that Communicore was getting long in the tooth and needed an updating (yeah, that's me, that person--ahem--"against all change"), but this wasn't the way to do it. I miss the bright, open, airy feel, and the stunning views of Future World through the glass walls.

You say that you're not against change... but you've spent a lot of time writing detailed novels why YOU think every change has been wrought by disaster and why everything is worse. You're right... it's perfectly clear that you're --ahem-- for change.

By the way... I also thought The Land was 'dark' and uninviting prior to the latest [sarcasm] "horrible" [/sarcasm] changes and I heard it from many others. :wave:

Maybe you'll get a job at WDI... of course... they would probably close down the parks due to lack of interest... but hey, who cares? At least YOU will be happy.

** Attempting serious reply to your novels above **
Go back and read them... count the number of times that you say "I" and "ME". Interestingly enough, you rarely mentioned what may be good the parks or for the general guests... just "you" and "your" sense of what is and is not good theming.

 

[CommandoDisney]

So if they put in strippers, and that brought in the crowds, would that be "success" as well? There's more to "success" than a temporary bump in the numbers. By this reasoning, pre-Disney amusement parks were a "success", but none on the order of the Magic Kingdom. Walt took amusement to a whole new level, created a whole new industry in effect. Now we're content to say that none of that matters, that mediocrity is okay, as long as it brings in sufficient numbers. This kind of "apologist" thinking is what allowed Eisner to cut so much, for so long, and to the long-term detriment of the Company and the product.

And before anyone yet again utters the mantra about how "fans" are crazed (not that this observation or simple common sense will stop anyone), I never, I do mean NEVER heard complaints about Disney in the past. Now in casual conversation with "non-fans", people who don't frequent and in all likelihood have never even heard of these boards, express their dissatisfaction with Disney and how far things have slid. THAT in itself is very telling.

So does this really affect my life that much? In the scheme of things, no. Is it worth posting about? Well, yes, as much as anything else here is worth posting about. I'd much rather read reasoned insights about what makes the theme parks "work" or "not work", than "hey, I like this ride".




It's highly out of character for me to take comments to a personal level, but I also believe in calling a spade a spade. When someone rants hysterically, cherry-picks my messages for things to fit their rash hysteria, tells me what I think and feel when they have no clue--they're an idiot, to say the very least. Yes, I could keep that observation to myself, but sometimes it just has to be said--for myself, and for all the others who'd like to say it but don't have the nerve to.




One of my personal mantras, which helps me get through the day in an increasingly uncivilized society, is that "people are going to think what they're going to think, and do what they're going to do". It helps me to realize that I have little or no control over chaos, stupidity, and aggression--but it also doesn't make any of those things right.




That's just absurd. Not all change is good, any more than all change is bad. Bulldozing the entire property would be "change", but that woudln't be "good". Well, maybe it would be. Let the swamp have it back, and begin to undo the environmental damage. Hey, you're right, all change is good!




Absolutely! :sohappy: That's what I've championed, and been bashed for, by the "all change is good" (see your own quote) and "as long as it's passably fun, mediocrity is okay" crowd.

G7

1. if they brought in strippers and more people went in to the land, then yes it would be a success. the whole point is to get people to go into the building. mcdonalds views it as a success when people eat their burgers, not when people gain weight from it, thats just an unfortunate side effect. strippers probably wouldnt fit in with the theme of the land though. plus it being a family park i seriously doubt it would raise attendance numbers. would it be a moral victory? no. but still a success, i didnt say what kind it was.

2. no dude, i didnt say all change is good, talk about cherry-picking, i said change is good. big difference. i didnt say all change, i didnt say a little change, i didnt say some change, i just said change is good. you assumed i meant a lot of change, and im sorry if you interpretted it as that, but taht "all" word makes one heck of a difference and i sure didnt use it.

3. and i dont think anyone is afraid to call someone an idiot on these boards i just think most people try to not get down to the level of name calling. i was simply saying that i dont think anyone should call you an idiot, but if you dont mind i shouldnt interfere.

just so we are clear, i never said you were wrong, i never said anyone is wrong. we were just all expressing opinions and lord knows i cant ever resist putting in my 2 cents

 

[ballewclan]

1. if they brought in strippers and more people went in to the land, then yes it would be a success. the whole point is to get people to go into the building. mcdonalds views it as a success when people eat their burgers, not when people gain weight from it, thats just an unfortunate side effect. strippers probably wouldnt fit in with the theme of the land though. plus it being a family park i seriously doubt it would raise attendance numbers. would it be a moral victory? no. but still a success, i didnt say what kind it was.

You gotta be joking. Thats just comical. :zipit:

 

[CommandoDisney]

You gotta be joking. Thats just comical. :zipit:

well i am a comedian... but i believe the point im making, not that there should actually be strippers put in.

 

[planet7]

no. but still a success, i didnt say what kind it was.

I'm guessing you grew up in the late 80's, early 90's, right? You have a much different concept of "success" than I do. (That's not a dig, it's just an observation, a sign of the times).

didnt say all change is good, talk about cherry-picking, i said change is good. big difference.

Not cherry-picking at all. If you said "apples are good", that would mean all apples, unless you specifically said "Washington apples are good" or "Granny Smith apples are good". You didn't specify a limit on "change", therefore it meant "all change". If you don't want to be misunderstood, you need to be more specific.

i just think most people try to not get down to the level of name calling

I normally don't either, but the gauntlet had already been thrown, not once, but several times. As I said, sometimes you've got to call a spade a spade.

i dont think anyone should call you an idiot, but if you dont mind i shouldnt interfere.

I do mind, but I also accept that it's going to happen. As I said, people think what they're going to think, say what they're going to say, do what they're going to do. I know who I am. It doesn't diminish me in any way.


G7

 

[PlaneJane]

I'm going to assume that this is directed at me. Multiple posts do not equate to "spamming". If you don't want to read my posts, you'll find a scroll bar to the right of your browser window. Click 'n drag.

G7

It was directed to you and whether or not you think it is spamming, it is at least extremely annoying.

By doing what you are doing you are adding to the cludder of this thread. Everytime you post you are adding your name, details, and signature numerous times. I am sure Steve doesn't appreciate it and I know numerous other posters don't like you. If you want to last on this forum you have to abide by the rules.

Oh and by the way it was spamming. Maybe not in the normal email definition, but posting mulitple times consecutively. If you have ever been in IRC. a chat room, or on a forum you would know this.

 

[wannab@dis]

Not cherry-picking at all. If you said "apples are good", that would mean all apples, unless you specifically said "Washington apples are good" or "Granny Smith apples are good". You didn't specify a limit on "change", therefore it meant "all change". If you don't want to be misunderstood, you need to be more specific.

Umm... Yeah, right. And I'm still waiting to hear what the definition of "is" is.

 

[peter11435]

If you said "apples are good", that would mean all apples,

No it doesn't. It means you think apples in general are good. But that doesn't mean that you won't have the occasional bad apple.

 

[planet7]

Everytime you post you are adding your name, details, and signature numerous times.

My sig is two letters. And yours is... how long?

I am sure Steve doesn't appreciate it and I know numerous other posters don't like you. If you want to last on this forum you have to abide by the rules.

I don't specifically know who Steve is, but I assume from context, he's the owner of this site. If he has a problem, he's more than welcome to speak to me.

As to the alleged "numerous others" and "if want ot last on this forum", give me a break. I haven't heard this kind of nonsense since grade school.

IRC. a chat room, or on a forum you would know this.

I don't do IRC, don't do chat rooms often, but I've owned and run forums for 26 years now--since before the public internet, and probably longer than you've even been alive. I don't need you defining "spam" for me.

G7

 

[PlaneJane]

My sig is two letters. And yours is... how long?




I don't specifically know who Steve is, but I assume from context, he's the owner of this site. If he has a problem, he's more than welcome to speak to me.

As to the alleged "numerous others" and "if want ot last on this forum", give me a break. I haven't heard this kind of nonsense since grade school.




I don't do IRC, don't do chat rooms often, but I've owned and run forums for 26 years now--since before the public internet, and probably longer than you've even been alive. I don't need you defining "spam" for me.
G7

You're an idiot and a lost cause. Go away...