News Roger E. Broggie overhaul

[DisAl]

Simple: less maintenance. Much easier to charge or swap out batteries then to diagnose what's wrong and fix a steam generator. Plus with with WDWRR operations, the electrical demand and running time is pretty much set. So it's fairly simple to design a battery system to easily meet that and then be fully charged overnight.

I am sure you are right about the maintenance. I posted a photo of the generator and turbine a while back and you could tell the system needed at least a good cleaning if not other maintenance. Also I doubt you could find either a replacement turbine or generator (32v DC I think) and any replacement parts would have to be hand built. It would be much easier to replace a battery bank than to replace even the simplest part on the turbine and generator. Also the turbines use more steam than you would think. If they lost the fire in the boiler and could not get it re-lit for some reason the first thing they would do is shut down the generator to conserve steam to make sure they could get the train where they needed it to be.
Even though I fully understand the need for the conversion, I don't have to like it.... I am however very grateful that they continue to keep the trains running. As far as I am concerned the trains are just as big a part of the "soul of the Magic Kingdom" as Mickey Mouse is.

 

[Andrew M]

I am sure you are right about the maintenance. I posted a photo of the generator and turbine a while back and you could tell the system needed at least a good cleaning if not other maintenance. Also I doubt you could find either a replacement turbine or generator (32v DC I think) and any replacement parts would have to be hand built. It would be much easier to replace a battery bank than to replace even the simplest part on the turbine and generator. Also the turbines use more steam than you would think. If they lost the fire in the boiler and could not get it re-lit for some reason the first thing they would do is shut down the generator to conserve steam to make sure they could get the train where they needed it to be.
Even though I fully understand the need for the conversion, I don't have to like it.... I am however very grateful that they continue to keep the trains running. As far as I am concerned the trains are just as big a part of the "soul of the Magic Kingdom" as Mickey Mouse is.

Precisely, almost any part that would break would need to be custom built, since they haven't mass-produced steam locomotive parts in over 70 years in this country. There's a reason they send the locomotives to Strasburg for refurbishment, they have one the best machine shops in the industry. Even the mighty Union Pacific, with a net worth of $110B, recently their steam locomotive wheels to Strasburg for work.

Ideally I completely agree, I'd love to have everything as authentic as possible: dynamos, blowdowns in the park and handlit fires.. However if it keeps Steam Trains running at Disney World for the foreseeable future, then I'm fine with whatever modifications they have to make to keep the lawyers and shareholders happy.

 

[trainplane3]

@Captain Barbossa, all of this talk has me wondering about Cedar Fair and specifically Cedar Point's trains. Are they still pure old school? Or do they have the new tech WDW has (generators, batteries, etc)? I don't know how to identify this kind of stuff, only interested.

I know this is a bit off the path of this thread but hearing all about these upgrades to keep the trains running had me wondering...

 

[MaximumEd]

How many years will WDW get out of a freshly refurbed loco before it makes another trip to Strasburg?

 

[Captain Barbossa]

all of this talk has me wondering about Cedar Fair and specifically Cedar Point's trains. Are they still pure old school? Or do they have the new tech WDW has (generators, batteries, etc)? I don't know how to identify this kind of stuff, only interested

Sorry, but I’m not familiar with Cedar Point’s railroad.

How many years will WDW get out of a freshly refurbed loco before it makes another trip to Strasburg?

I can’t remember the last time that Roy was overhauled or Lilly pior to her 2010 overhaul. Walter was last overhauled in 1999 at Tweetsie and left for Strasburg in 2016, so that’s 17 years of service between overhauls. Roger was last overhauled in 2003 at Tweetsie, which is about 15 years of service between overhauls. I’d say 15 years or so, give or take a year or two.

 

[MaximumEd]

That’s some impressive durability. Imagine driving your car 12 hours a day for 15 years. I know they aren’t all out every day, but you know what I mean.

 

[bpiper]

Sorry, but I’m not familiar with Cedar Point’s railroad.


I can’t remember the last time that Roy was overhauled or Lilly pior to her 2010 overhaul. Walter was last overhauled in 1999 at Tweetsie and left for Strasburg in 2016, so that’s 17 years of service between overhauls. Roger was last overhauled in 2003 at Tweetsie, which is about 15 years of service between overhauls. I’d say 15 years or so, give or take a year or two.

It looks like Disney is adhering to FRA regulations on steam locomotive boiler inspections.

§ 230.17 One thousand four hundred seventy-two (1472) service day inspection.
(a)General. Before any steam locomotive is initially put in service or brought out of retirement, and after every 1472 service days or 15 years, whichever is earlier, an individual competent to conduct the inspection shall inspect the entire boiler. In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first. This 1472 service day inspection shall include all annual, and 5th annual, inspection requirements, as well as any items required by the steam locomotive owner and/or operator or the FRA inspector. At this time, the locomotive owner and/or operator shall complete, update and verify the locomotive specification card (FRA Form No. 4), to reflect the condition of the boiler at the time of this inspection. See appendices A and B of this part.

 

[bpiper]

@Captain Barbossa, all of this talk has me wondering about Cedar Fair and specifically Cedar Point's trains. Are they still pure old school? Or do they have the new tech WDW has (generators, batteries, etc)? I don't know how to identify this kind of stuff, only interested.

I know this is a bit off the path of this thread but hearing all about these upgrades to keep the trains running had me wondering...

Cedar Point's are still old school. Still powered by shoveling coal into the boiler. 3/4 ton of coal a day. They are fired up at 7am for a 10am start and take an hour to build up enough pressure.

 

[Captain Barbossa]

Simple: less maintenance. Much easier to charge or swap out batteries then to diagnose what's wrong and fix a steam generator. Plus with with WDWRR operations, the electrical demand and running time is pretty much set. So it's fairly simple to design a battery system to easily meet that and then be fully charged overnight.

I am sure you are right about the maintenance. I posted a photo of the generator and turbine a while back and you could tell the system needed at least a good cleaning if not other maintenance. Also I doubt you could find either a replacement turbine or generator (32v DC I think) and any replacement parts would have to be hand built. It would be much easier to replace a battery bank than to replace even the simplest part on the turbine and generator. Also the turbines use more steam than you would think. If they lost the fire in the boiler and could not get it re-lit for some reason the first thing they would do is shut down the generator to conserve steam to make sure they could get the train where they needed it to be.
Even though I fully understand the need for the conversion, I don't have to like it.... I am however very grateful that they continue to keep the trains running. As far as I am concerned the trains are just as big a part of the "soul of the Magic Kingdom" as Mickey Mouse is.

It really has nothing to do with maintenance. The main reason for the switch is to power the electronic igniter, which is very complicated and involves many steps, and the computerized safety system. I understand the reason for the change, but I don’t like it either. I sure am gonna miss seeing steam coming out of the back of the tender.

 

[Captain Barbossa]

It looks like Disney is adhering to FRA regulations on steam locomotive boiler inspections.

§ 230.17 One thousand four hundred seventy-two (1472) service day inspection.
(a)General. Before any steam locomotive is initially put in service or brought out of retirement, and after every 1472 service days or 15 years, whichever is earlier, an individual competent to conduct the inspection shall inspect the entire boiler. In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first. This 1472 service day inspection shall include all annual, and 5th annual, inspection requirements, as well as any items required by the steam locomotive owner and/or operator or the FRA inspector. At this time, the locomotive owner and/or operator shall complete, update and verify the locomotive specification card (FRA Form No. 4), to reflect the condition of the boiler at the time of this inspection. See appendices A and B of this part.

Yeah that doesn’t have anything to do with it. The WDWRR doesn’t follow FRA rules and regulations because they’re not required to because it is considered as a “theme park attraction”. That’s how they get away with not having brakes on the locomotives. They just “try to stay on the FRA’s good side” when it comes to crew training.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

It really has nothing to do with maintenance. The main reason for the switch is to power the electronic igniter, which is very complicated and involves many steps, and the computerized safety system. I understand the reason for the change, but I don’t like it either. I sure am gonna miss seeing steam coming out of the back of the tender.

Ahhh that makes sense.

See that’s the difference between someone answering a question, and just making something up. Ha.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Cedar Point's are still old school. Still powered by shoveling coal into the boiler. 3/4 ton of coal a day. They are fired up at 7am for a 10am start and take an hour to build up enough pressure.

As is Dollywood in regards to coal. In regards to “old school” in the other ways you can add Disneyland, Knotts Berry Farm, and Six Flags over Texas to the list. They all run antique steam locomotives as well.

The crown engines at Six Flags St. Louis, Kings Island, etc. are somewhat simplified, but they are still more old school than the newly refurbed WDW locomotives.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

There's a reason they send the locomotives to Strasburg for refurbishment, they have one the best machine shops in the industry. Even the mighty Union Pacific, with a net worth of $110B, recently their steam locomotive wheels to Strasburg for work.

The only complete steam locomotive wheel repair shops in the country, afaik are Strasburg and Tennessee Valley Railroad in Chattanooga. The lathes big enough to turn steam locomotive wheels are pretty rare.

Union Pacific was fully capable of making the parts needed for their locomotives, this was extremely specific custom work that pretty much has to go to Strasburg and Tennessee Valley. (Both have done work for UP wheels by the way.)

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I can’t remember the last time that Roy was overhauled or Lilly pior to her 2010 overhaul. Walter was last overhauled in 1999 at Tweetsie and left for Strasburg in 2016, so that’s 17 years of service between overhauls. Roger was last overhauled in 2003 at Tweetsie, which is about 15 years of service between overhauls. I’d say 15 years or so, give or take a year or two.

The previous over-hauls at Tweetsie were not as major as these. This is the first time in the parks history they have gotten new boilers. (New boilers were made for the locomotives when they were rebuilt for the park in 1970 / 71.)

 

[Captain Barbossa]

Ahhh that makes sense.

See that’s the difference between someone answering a question, and just making something up. Ha.

@DisAl and @Andrew M didn’t really make anything up. They had some good points that made sense. I was just saying that maintenance wasn’t the main reason for the switch to batteries.

 

[bpiper]

Yeah that doesn’t have anything to do with it. The WDWRR doesn’t follow FRA rules and regulations because they’re not required to because it is considered as a “theme park attraction”. That’s how they get away with not having brakes on the locomotives. They just “try to stay on the FRA’s good side” when it comes to crew training.

While they might not be required to follow all the FRA regulations, I could see them following the boiler inspections ones though. Those inspection frequencies were created from the shattered boilers that weren't inspected with the right frequency. If for no other reason, if there was ever to be a boiler incident, Disney legal can fall back to the argument that they followed FRA inspection regs, had a FRA licensed boiler inspector certify the boiler and that it wasn't past the inspection dates. While it doesn't absolve them from blame when the lawsuits come in, there is a big difference in payouts and liability between an "accident" and a "negligent accident".

 

[Captain Barbossa]

The previous over-hauls at Tweetsie were not as major as these. This is the first time in the parks history they have gotten new boilers. (New boilers were made for the locomotives when they were rebuilt for the park in 1970 / 71.)

I’m not so sure about that.

 

[trainplane3]

Cedar Point's are still old school. Still powered by shoveling coal into the boiler. 3/4 ton of coal a day. They are fired up at 7am for a 10am start and take an hour to build up enough pressure.

Much appreciated. I thought I saw them shoveling last year but it was before I really started paying attention.

 

[twilight mitsuk]

As is Dollywood in regards to coal. In regards to “old school” in the other ways you can add Disneyland, Knotts Berry Farm, and Six Flags over Texas to the list. They all run antique steam locomotives as well.

The crown engines at Six Flags St. Louis, Kings Island, etc. are somewhat simplified, but they are still more old school than the newly refurbed WDW locomotives.

And bgt uses crown locomotives

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Any of you train guys know anything about the 1 remaining steam engine at Edaville Railroad? (Not the train that pushes Thomas the Tank Engine around.) It doesn't run all the time, but on select days. My boys adore trains in general, but thanks to Thomas, especially steam engines, and I know next to nothing about them.