News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[GoofGoof]

Agreed, except the only difference is that Universal paid taxes on the garage construction, as they paid for it with private funds. Disney did not, on either coast.

Could Universal have secured a deal with Orlando similar to the deal Disney got with Anaheim? Maybe. But at the end of the day, they didn't.

If you go back to the time the project happened (see below) RCID estimated a sales tax savings of around $1.4M from being exempt from sales tax on certain building materials. The garages cost $85M but most of the cost is labor and materials that aren’t taxed. Municipal debt in theory should be at a lower interest rate than similar corporate debt since its tax free earnings for the buyer so they take a lower rate for the same after tax return. As the below article states while Disney gained some advantages using RCID to build the garages at the same time the City of Orlando paid $9M for a pedestrian overpass for a new Universal resort. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. That overpass paid for itself by now in more sales tax revenue. Great use of public funds.

Reedy Creek to build parking garages for Downtown Disney expansion

Of all the additions Walt Disney World will make during the next few years as it transforms its Downtown Disney shopping district into the larger “Disney Springs,” none will be more imp…

www.orlandosentinel.com

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think the only "benefit" to dissolving RCID today is the "level playing field" argument, which is not necessarily a strong argument to make, as Universal enjoys similar benefits to Disney. If we were to have a serious conversation as a state, outside of the political retaliation of it all, about the "level playing field," I think the only true way to accomplish that would be to remove each and every special privilege for Disney and Universal. Of course, that has not been done as of this post, as the state's ire has been solely targeted at Disney, and as a means to retaliate, rather than with altruistic intentions of "leveling the playing field."

But they’d never truly be on a “level playing field” because they exist in different jurisdictions. How Orlando operates is different from how Orange County operates.

 

[Rich Brownn]

I do not subscribe to that. Every area that Disney has ever built a park, the surrounding area exploded and grew. If RCID was never estabilished, the surrounding counties and the state would have promoted the development of the theme parks and hotels. They grew because of pop-culture demand and there was a profit/loss business model that drove it.

Again...RCID was estabilished for the purpose of supporting the AGRESSIVE idea of the Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow. This was a GIGANTIC futuristic functioning CITY with THOUSANDS of actual "RESIDENTS"...actually LIVING in the city!!

If Disney had told the state "before" they estabilished RCID in 1967...that EPCOT would NEVER be built and that only a theme park would be built...the state would have said "nope".

Special taxing districts are great...like The Villages...when you have thousands of real people LIVING there...

If they'd said "nope" we'd be visiting WDW in St Louis. And probably every other park too. And Orlando would still be next to 27,000 acres of swampland.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The Disney Springs parking garages aren’t the only publicly funded Disney parking garages.

The Anaheim City Council agreed to build the Mickey and Friends Parking Structure at Disneyland which they lease to Disney for $1 per year and Disney pockets 100% of the parking fees of $20/$35. And once the bonds are paid off, the city is obligated to transfer ownership of the parking garage to Disney at no cost to the company.

The funds to pay off those bonds do come from Disney. It’s a bit of a complicated deal, but Anaheim is not paying for that garage. Like the District they’re a go-between to secure better financial terms.

 

[Chi84]

If they'd said "nope" we'd be visiting WDW in St Louis. And probably every other park too. And Orlando would still be next to 27,000 acres of swampland.

That’s true. From the articles I’ve read, Florida would have done just about anything to get Disney to build “Disneyland East” there.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Not historically accurate. When going before the legislature in 1967 (after Walt died), the legislature was really pushing to get a "Disneyland East", and the plans were for a vacation resort. Epcot was a far off possibility, but it was not the leading part of the discussion in 1967. Everyone forgets, the area WDW is in now was basically useless swampland.

Disney would not have been built if RCID hadn't happened. And FL wanted Disney and all of the tourism it would bring.

To quote Adm. Joe Fowler when telling Walt about Florida: "We have purchased 27,000 acres of the sorriest ground God put on earth. Most of it is under water." It took nearly $30 million in 1969 dollars just to build canals to drain the swamp.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Universal doesn't have a special district to pawn costs like this on to.

They are and do. If Universal wants changes or upgrades made to the roads the City of Orlando pretty much has to do as requested. That’s how they fit the pedestrian bridges a few years ago.

I don't believe there's anything stopping any of the major attractions from petitioning for a special district, and ultimately receiving one. I'm sure DeSantis would jump at the opportunity in today's political climate, as a means of "sticking it to Disney."

The big limitation is the size of their contiguous land holdings.

 

[mkt]

To quote Adm. Joe Fowler when telling Walt about Florida: "We have purchased 27,000 acres of the sorriest ground God put on earth. Most of it is under water." It took nearly $30 million in 1969 dollars just to build canals to drain the swamp.

That's about $250 MILLION in 2023 dollars.

 

[Rich Brownn]

That's about $250 MILLION in 2023 dollars.

Yup. As for EPCOT, John Hench told me the story behind the infamous film and you don't wanna know what he said other than "We're all haunted by that <expletive deleted> painting". I will say the total amount of thought put into the painting and models took.... two days.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yup. As for EPCOT, John Hench told me the story behind the infamous film and you don't wanna know what he said other than "We're all haunted by that <expletive deleted> painting". I will say the total amount of thought put into the painting and models took.... two days.

EPCOT was a Garden City, a concept that was well over half a century old when Victor Gruen wrote The Heart of Our Cities. Just because the visuals were produced quickly doesn’t mean there wasn’t a lot more behind the idea.

 

[flynnibus]

Universal doesn't have a special district to pawn costs like this on to. They do get some good deals from the city and county, but they, as far as I know, paid for their garages out of pocket, despite a similar rationale for them (if not better) than the Disney Springs garages.

But believe me if uni thought it was politically viable to have the local gov build it… they would have. Disney’s difference is the lack of opposition and lack of people burdened without direct gain. The advantage of having the master plan of who is inside the lines/box and reconfiguring the municipal boundaries to match.

Again… it’s all about control.

 

[el_super]

“Your” truth isn’t “the” truth according to fact-based sources, the RCID charter and the Florida Supreme Court.

False. Both the Florida Legislature and Supreme Court were under the impression that EPCOT was going to be built. You are misinterpreting.

 

[el_super]

The 100+ page charter spells out what the district was created for. I haven’t seen anything in it that says it’s created just to build EPCOT.

You think that the Walt Disney film promoting EPCOT had no impact on the decision making?

 

[GoofGoof]

You think that the Walt Disney film promoting EPCOT had no impact on the decision making?

I don’t pretend to know what had an impact on decision making 55 years ago or what didn’t. I’m not sure how you could be so confident to know that either but you do you.

If the only point of the district was to build EPCOT then why not lead with that? Why write a 100 page charter without bothering to mention it? Why not create a district with the same authority as a general government? EPCOT was dead as an idea long before EPCOT Center the park opened but that was 40+ years ago. So if the only point of the district was to build a city called EPCOT why leave the district around for 40 more years? None of this makes any sense.

 

[GoofGoof]

False. Both the Florida Legislature and Supreme Court were under the impression that EPCOT was going to be built. You are misinterpreting.

In state vs Reedy Creek Improvement District the FL Supreme Court stated that the promotion and development of tourism and recreation is a valid public purpose and that the integrated plan or workings of the District are essentially and primarily directed toward encouraging and developing tourism, thus confirming that the structure and purpose of the district was valid.

 

[Brian]

I'm fairly certain that if there were any possibility of successfully challenging the legality, legitimacy, or purpose of RCID because EPCOT as a city did not come to pass, DeSantis would have done it already.

 

[el_super]

I don’t pretend to know what had an impact on decision making 55 years ago or what didn’t. I’m not sure how you could be so confident to know that either but you do you.

You do pretend to know, every time you say that RCID was approved for reasons other than EPCOT. Disney bought the land, showed the film, told the legislatures what their plan was to justify the charter, and you seem to believe that magically had nothing to do with their decision making.

If the only point of the district was to build EPCOT then why not lead with that? Why write a 100 page charter without bothering to mention it?

What would you have it say? That they were ONLY giving Disney control of the special district in order to run an experimental government? That it was a science experiment?

Even Walt's EPCOT was always planned to be a tourist destination.

Why not create a district with the same authority as a general government? EPCOT was dead as an idea long before EPCOT Center the park opened but that was 40+ years ago. So if the only point of the district was to build a city called EPCOT why leave the district around for 40 more years? None of this makes any sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense, which is why RCID should have been disbanded long ago.

 

[el_super]

In state vs Reedy Creek Improvement District the FL Supreme Court stated that the promotion and development of tourism and recreation is a valid public purpose

Yes because EPCOT, the tourist destination, was still to be built in 1968.

Seriously, if all Disney intended to do was build a theme park and some tennis courts, why didn't they just say that?

 

[disneylandtour]

I'm fairly certain that if there were any possibility of successfully challenging the legality, legitimacy, or purpose of RCID because EPCOT as a city did not come to pass, DeSantis would have done it already.

You seem to be suggesting that "legality, legitimacy, or purpose" has been the guiding principle for his other actions.

 

[jaklgreen]

Of course it doesn't make sense, which is why RCID should have been disbanded long ago.

Why should it have been disbanded? That is the deal that the State made with Disney. The State has benefited greatly by having Disney put in all of the public works and infrastructure in that area that the County normally would be responsible for. So you are all for Florida repaying Disney what they paid to put in all of those public works? The problem that I have with this is we all know that is the deal that was struck. Having one side unilaterally decide that they don't want that deal anymore is not how things work. Imagine if everyone could just back out on deals because they changed their minds. I don't care if Disney has any kind of advantage or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is that is the deal Florida struck and they should stick to it. And I don't believe for one second that the only reason that they struck this deal was because of some pipe dream of Walt's about making Epcot into a community. The area needed the infrastructure either way.
If you owned a big corporation, would you go into Florida knowing that they can and will go back on any deals that they make with you?