News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[Brian]

You are really comparing apples and pineapples.

1) the value of the deal was 71b… but it wasn’t a 71b outlay of cash

2) when a company decides to spend money as an investment, they do so with an expectation of what kind of return that spend will generate in a specific period of time. Agreeing to spend 100million on a product hou expect to sell is not the same decision on deciding to spend 100million on water management.

You can’t treat these things as equals.

3) you are making claims based on ‘they are rich…’ assumptions instead of anything actually based in comparables or without even a spitball of what the type of scale what you propose would be

It’s not hypothetical - it’s a pure emotional argument based on seeing the size of the disney company.

I think those are fair points, but is your suggestion that the Disney of 2023 could not afford to build a destination with a similar amount of land as WDW without a special district? I'm sure we can both agree that the Disney of the sixties needed RCID in order to make WDW happen, but I'm not convinced they would need such an arrangement if starting from scratch elsewhere in the U.S..

With that said, I'm not convinced they would do it without concessions from the host state/locality, such as tax breaks, local government control, etc.

 

[GoofGoof]

I think those are fair points, but is your suggestion that the Disney of 2023 could not afford to build a destination with a similar amount of land as WDW without a special district? I'm sure we can both agree that the Disney of the sixties needed RCID in order to make WDW happen, but I'm not convinced they would need such an arrangement if starting from scratch elsewhere in the U.S..

With that said, I'm not convinced they would do it without concessions from the host state/locality, such as tax breaks, local government control, etc.

Disney probably could build WDW today somewhere else without a RCID but I am positive if they actually managed to buy that much land again they would still want to control developing it. Why wouldn’t they? They could certainly build a smaller park like Universal’s boutique park in TX without complete control (although they would still want some control and incentives just like Universal got), but having a massive piece of land that you know will take decades to develop is a different ballgame.

Building a clone of WDW today somewhere else would probably cost $50-100B or maybe more. So even TWDC may not have deep enough pockets or good enough credit to finance something like that. It would certainly have a lot of risk even if they had control of development.

 

[seascape]

The Walt Disney Compsny told Florida that if they didn't get the RCDI in 1967 they would sell all the land and walk away with 100 million in profits.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think those are fair points, but is your suggestion that the Disney of 2023 could not afford to build a destination with a similar amount of land as WDW without a special district? I'm sure we can both agree that the Disney of the sixties needed RCID in order to make WDW happen, but I'm not convinced they would need such an arrangement if starting from scratch elsewhere in the U.S..

With that said, I'm not convinced they would do it without concessions from the host state/locality, such as tax breaks, local government control, etc.

Nobody would commit to the scale of investment without assurances. What we’re seeing play out right now with a local government that now wants some undefined other type of development is part of why development agreements and special districts exist.

 

[flynnibus]

I think those are fair points, but is your suggestion that the Disney of 2023 could not afford to build a destination with a similar amount of land as WDW without a special district? I'm sure we can both agree that the Disney of the sixties needed RCID in order to make WDW happen, but I'm not convinced they would need such an arrangement if starting from scratch elsewhere in the U.S..

Riddle me this… disney went from swamp to creating the world’s most well known resort visited by 10s of million a year. Wildly successful… and backbone of their business.

Yet, for nearly 30 years they haven’t used the vast wealth they have now to do it again? Why do you think they have instead chosen different paths?

Why haven’t the biggest companies in the world duplicated something on the scale of wdw?

It’s not just money. It’s not just a special district. Wdw is at the scale that even the full governments haven’t undertaken for their own disney.

And all around even mucb smaller developments are being done with government agreements to satisfy similar taxing arrangements and planning.

With that said, I'm not convinced they would do it without concessions from the host state/locality, such as tax breaks, local government control, etc.

No one undertakes such huge long term investments without having a strategy of how they will interact with the governments and the entities around them. Because no one can accept the level of risk that comes with that kind of uncertainty

 

[mikejs78]

the Disney of 2023 could not afford to build a destination with a similar amount of land as WDW without a special district?

They could, but they wouldn't.

With that said, I'm not convinced they would do it without concessions from the host state/locality, such as tax breaks, local government control, etc.

Bingo.

 

[LAKid53]

Disney probably could build WDW today somewhere else without a RCID but I am positive if they actually managed to buy that much land again they would still want to control developing it. Why wouldn’t they? They could certainly build a smaller park like Universal’s boutique park in TX without complete control (although they would still want some control and incentives just like Universal got), but having a massive piece of land that you know will take decades to develop is a different ballgame.

Building a clone of WDW today somewhere else would probably cost $50-100B or maybe more. So even TWDC may not have deep enough pockets or good enough credit to finance something like that. It would certainly have a lot of risk even if they had control of development.

Do not forget that TWDC created several corporations to hide WHO was purchasing those acres in Central Florida. Once word got out it was Disney, prices inflated from as little as $100 an acre to thousands of dollars. It would be difficult in today's social media driven society to do the same.

 

[Brian]

Riddle me this… disney went from swamp to creating the world’s most well known resort visited by 10s of million a year. Wildly successful… and backbone of their business.

Yet, for nearly 30 years they haven’t used the vast wealth they have now to do it again? Why do you think they have instead chosen different paths?

Why haven’t the biggest companies in the world duplicated something on the scale of wdw?

It’s not just money. It’s not just a special district. Wdw is at the scale that even the full governments haven’t undertaken for their own disney.

And all around even mucb smaller developments are being done with government agreements to satisfy similar taxing arrangements and planning.



No one undertakes such huge long term investments without having a strategy of how they will interact with the governments and the entities around them. Because no one can accept the level of risk that comes with that kind of uncertainty

I’m not saying they wish to or have even considered it. WDW, or something if its scale, is something we likely won’t see duplicated by Disney in our lifetimes.

My original point was that Disney can do without RCID today because of its financial resources, most of which did not exist at the time of WDW’s initial construction, thus necessitating RCID.

That said, if they were to, in an alternate universe (because it isn’t happening in this one) attempt to build something the scale of WDW, they’d absolutely seek local government control, but would not need a special district for financial reasons.

 

[GoofGoof]

The charter lays out the purpose of the district. It’s not to build EPCOT. In State vs Reedy Creek Improvement District the FL Supreme Court later confirmed that the purpose of the district was ”essentially and primarily directed toward encouraging and developing tourism”

There is simply no truth to the notion that RCID only existed to build EPCOT.

 

[GoofGoof]

Do not forget that TWDC created several corporations to hide WHO was purchasing those acres in Central Florida. Once word got out it was Disney, prices inflated from as little as $100 an acre to thousands of dollars. It would be difficult in today's social media driven society to do the same.

Yeah it would be very difficult to say the least. If you look at the logistics around something a simple as the Universal park in TX which is less than 100 acres and they still used a shell company to hide who was buying. No way could they buy 300X that land without drawing massive attention.

 

[LAKid53]

3.) I want Disney to he held to the exact same expectations that any other corporation in Florida...and also not be "targeted" unfairly or specifically too. Zero special "perks" that nobody else has.

Please provide what "special perks" you think TWDC has from RCID? The company is paying millions in assessments to the District. For the District to provide services that otherwise would be handled by Orange and Osceola Counties and paid by property owners in the county.

 

[LAKid53]

Yes, addressed many times and with many volumes of discussion. You cherry pick what you want. There are many references and quotable references. The core fact that EPCOT's original (documented in prior to color film, by Mr. Disney himself) concept was for an actual community, of course tourism was welcome enjoy this community.

Walt died. All plans were put on hold.

 

[GoofGoof]

I’m not saying they wish to or have even considered it. WDW, or something if its scale, is something we likely won’t see duplicated by Disney in our lifetimes.

My original point was that Disney can do without RCID today because of its financial resources, most of which did not exist at the time of WDW’s initial construction, thus necessitating RCID.

That said, if they were to, in an alternate universe (because it isn’t happening in this one) attempt to build something the scale of WDW, they’d absolutely seek local government control, but would not need a special district for financial reasons.

The municipal debt isn’t as big a deal as it once was for TWDC. That’s for sure. The benefit of control over development is no different today or actually may be more necessary depending on where they built. FL in 1967 was a whole lot more business friendly than FL under DeSantis. I’d say if they did it today in FL again they’d put even more value on control.

 

[LAKid53]

Yeah it would be very difficult to say the least. If you look at the logistics around something a simple as the Universal park in TX which is less than 100 acres and they still used a shell company to hide who was buying. No way could they buy 300X that land without drawing massive attention.

And paying hundreds of thousands per acre to do so.

 

[mikejs78]

That said, if they were to, in an alternate universe (because it isn’t happening in this one) attempt to build something the scale of WDW, they’d absolutely seek local government control, but would not need a special district for financial reasons.

RCID isn't about finances. In fact as has been pointed out numerous times, if RCID were dissolved, Disney's tax bill would substantially decrease.

 

[LAKid53]

I cannot believe after nearly 1000 pages in this thread, we're back to rehashing WHY RCID existed in the first place....

 

[Brian]

RCID isn't about finances. In fact as has been pointed out numerous times, if RCID were dissolved, Disney's tax bill would substantially decrease.

RCID was partially about finances at its inception. Disney would not be able to afford to develop all of the infrastructure needed for WDW back in the sixties.

I am making no argument that Disney had a net positive financial benefit from RCID at the time of its dissolution.

 

[flynnibus]

That said, if they were to, in an alternate universe (because it isn’t happening in this one) attempt to build something the scale of WDW, they’d absolutely seek local government control, but would not need a special district for financial reasons.

Glad you finally worked out that the purpose behind rcid was not primarily about saving money - but because they wanted control. The financial tools it opened are advantageous and enablers but not the core reason it was pursued.

They wanted control and the predictability it helped bring. The structure of rcid allows them to spend in ways that are tax advantaged for disney but also insulates the financial stats of disney. But it was the long term planning and control the leadership had the foresight to lock up with such certainty before committing the company’s future.

 

[flynnibus]

RCID was partially about finances at its inception. Disney would not be able to afford to develop all of the infrastructure needed for WDW back in the sixties.

Disney still paid for it. But they did so in ways that were advantageous to spend in that fashion.

By paying through taxes and having rcid do bonds instead of disney seeking it’s own financing it is cheaper for the company.

But the early spend was not huge. Disney spent more buying the land than rcid’s bonds yhag were part of the lawsuit were for.

Eta: my recollection on the land buy amount was off.., quick lookups (im on the road) say land was only about 5mil.., making ghe above statement vs bonds wrong

 

[flynnibus]

Disneyland was at it’s peak of record breaking significance at this time in 1965. Disney would have had no problem finding investors willing to finance the disneyland east concept.

But disney was set on being in control after returning to their position of power. They bought out their Disneyland partners and operators… and looked to use their experience and lessons learned in their next major effort.

Disney walked on water at that point in time - anyone would have given them anything to be the next Disneyland