News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[drnilescrane]

Which interchange? Are we talking about roads that are part of RCID?

It was the I-4/Osceola interchange, and I think it happened about 10 years ago. When originally built in the mid 1990s it didn't have the full set of ramps because it's too close to the Epcot interchange. What they got Orange to pay for was the study to convince FDOT to rebuild the interchange, complete with flyovers to mitigate the weaving that would occur.

They didn't go to Osceola County for funding presumably because they were still upset at Disney for convincing them to build it in the first place. The road beyond Disney really only exists to provide alternate access to the FL Turnpike towards Miami from Disney property. This is because FDOT and what is now CFX wouldn't agree to build an interchange between 417 and the Turnpike. The anticipated toll revenue for Osceola Parkway never appeared.

 

[pdude81]

People keep talking about how the county would have had to pay for all of the roads at Walt Disney World. Private developments build, own and maintain their own rides. There’s nothing that requires roads to be built and maintained by a local government.

If there was no District or municipalities, the county would have no obligation to build or maintain World Dr which existed fully within Disney owned property. Disney could build World Dr and try to transfer ownership to the county, but why would the county have to accept that transfer of ownership?

The Kirkman Road extension is a little different in that it already existed on county plans but it also crosses and interfaces with different owners. Universal, also wanting it, offered to provide much of the land without an eminent domain fight, financing and actually getting it built. I’m not able to easily find the maintenance agreement but there wouldn’t be a need for such an agreement if the county was assuming full responsibility.

Are those roads owned by Disney or RCID though? If the roads are RCID property and RCID is dissolved, I'd assume the ROWs would become unincorporated parts of the county and *not* revert to Disney property.

*missed a word earlier

 

[lazyboy97o]

Are those roads owned by Disney or RCID though? If the roads are RCID property and RCID is dissolved, I'd assume the ROWs would become unincorporated parts of the county and revert to Disney property.

I’m not talking about dissolution. I’m talking about if the District and municipalities never existed in the first place.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Which interchange? Are we talking about roads that are part of RCID?

The interchange on I-4 leading into 192. Its not part of RCID

 

[mmascari]

People keep talking about how the county would have had to pay for all of the roads at Walt Disney World. Private developments build, own and maintain their own rides. There’s nothing that requires roads to be built and maintained by a local government.

I don't think anyone suggested the county would need to deal with roads in a scenario where RCID never existed.

There's the scenario where RCID never existed and WDW owned all the land and roads, never transitioned any of it to a government entity.

There's the world that exists today, where WDW transferred lots of stuff to RCID. Where RCID takes care of it and collects taxes to fund that. Taxes that are almost exclusively paid by Disney.

There's the world where RCID is dissolved and replaced by nothing. Where the county now is forced to take over. Not forced by Disney, but by the change from many government jurisdictions to less jurisdictions and the transfer between government jurisdictions.


In the first one, I don't think anyone thinks that WDW could force anyone to take over anything. Even in the second, Disney cannot force RCID to take over a road. What they can do is elect RCID government who agree that RCID should take over a road. That's not forcing them to though. Subtle, but different.

In the third, Disney's ability to elect government that agrees with them is diminished, but not eliminated. Can you imagine two candidates running for county government. Once that opposes Disney something and one that supports it. Disney could pour untold amounts of money into helping them get elected. It could be the most well funded and largest spend on a county election ever.

Using this map: https://www.rcid.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/RCID2020.pdf

In the first scenario, where RCID never existed, all the red roads would be grey WDW roads instead. In this scenario, it's certainly possible WDW might want to transfer some roads to a government jurisdiction, but nothing could force it. There's probably reasons a jurisdiction would want or not want to take over some roads.

In this scenario, I imagine toll plaza's at the boarders where the red roads start. A real and true Disney bubble where you're on Disney property the entire time not bouncing in and out of it. In this corporate compound vision, they could allow Minnie Van service everywhere, but force ride shares only at the boarders. People could take a bus or Minnie Van from Magic Kingdom to the Hotel Plaza Boulevard & South Apopka Vineland Road intersection to pick up an Uber headed East. No need to allow Uber pickups within the private compound. It might be good that this is an imaginary scenario.


PS: I should clearly never own a 27,000 acre compound.

 

[GoofGoof]

It was the I-4/Osceola interchange, and I think it happened about 10 years ago. When originally built in the mid 1990s it didn't have the full set of ramps because it's too close to the Epcot interchange. What they got Orange to pay for was the study to convince FDOT to rebuild the interchange, complete with flyovers to mitigate the weaving that would occur.

They didn't go to Osceola County for funding presumably because they were still upset at Disney for convincing them to build it in the first place. The road beyond Disney really only exists to provide alternate access to the FL Turnpike towards Miami from Disney property. This is because FDOT and what is now CFX wouldn't agree to build an interchange between 417 and the Turnpike. The anticipated toll revenue for Osceola Parkway never appeared.

That‘s kinda my point. That interchange isn’t part of RCID and obviously directly benefits Disney but TWDC didn’t pay for it out of pocket. The local government paid for it using taxpayer dollars and I’m sure at the urging of Disney. We don’t know what would have happened in the past without RCID or what will happen in the future if it’s gone, but IMHO the local taxpayers would be footing more of the bill for roads (both construction and maintenance) without RCID. I thought that was a pretty obvious statement but apparently others disagree and think Disney would have just paid for every road themselves out of pocket and would pay to maintain them too. It’s an academic debate and we will never know the answer.

 

[Bob Harlem]

That‘s kinda my point. That interchange isn’t part of RCID and obviously directly benefits Disney but TWDC didn’t pay for it out of pocket. The local government paid for it using taxpayer dollars and I’m sure at the urging of Disney. We don’t know what would have happened in the past without RCID or what will happen in the future if it’s gone, but IMHO the local taxpayers would be footing more of the bill for roads (both construction and maintenance) without RCID. I thought that was a pretty obvious statement but apparently others disagree and think Disney would have just paid for every road themselves out of pocket and would pay to maintain them too. It’s an academic debate and we will never know the answer.

The interchange is still horrible, between there and Champions Gate it backs up badly every day, multiple times and there is no real alternate routes to get over west to US 17.

 

[Drdcm]

Who bought the Mickey power pole?

Is that gone? I used to get so excited when I would see it as a kid on our way to MK

 

[JoeCamel]

Is that gone? I used to get so excited when I would see it as a kid on our way to MK

Still there, maybe should have said "who paid"

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Ran across this article in a different thread, and couldn't help but notice the irony that Uni is building a new entry road to their EPIC expansion which is priced at $300M, with Uni contributing at least $174. Where's the balance of that $ coming from? Taxpayer funds??? And yet there's no outrage at that...

Documents reveal name Universal plans to give Epic Universe road

The new park is expected to open by summer 2025.

www.mynews13.com

From the article: "As for the Kirkman Road extension, the project is expected to help with traffic in that part of the tourist corridor. When finished, it will add a 1.7-mile connector between Carrier Drive and Universal Boulevard. The project has an estimated cost of $300 million, with Universal providing at least $164 million for the road work. It’s expected to be completed in 2024."

Regardless of who pays for it I’m shocked at $300 million for 1.7 miles of road, some interchanges, and some flyovers. That’s an unbelievable amount of money.

 

[drnilescrane]

That‘s kinda my point. That interchange isn’t part of RCID and obviously directly benefits Disney but TWDC didn’t pay for it out of pocket. The local government paid for it using taxpayer dollars and I’m sure at the urging of Disney. We don’t know what would have happened in the past without RCID or what will happen in the future if it’s gone, but IMHO the local taxpayers would be footing more of the bill for roads (both construction and maintenance) without RCID. I thought that was a pretty obvious statement but apparently others disagree and think Disney would have just paid for every road themselves out of pocket and would pay to maintain them too. It’s an academic debate and we will never know the answer.

Well of course. People forget that Disneyland exists without RCID. Of course Disney paid for all that I-5 work in the late 1990s

Slight correction as well, here's the entire story: https://www.globest.com/sites/globe...e-financing-embarrassing-to-county-officials/

So it was 20 years ago and Disney actually got Orange to pay towards construction of an interchange in another county. I'm conflating it with the extra work that had to happen later to improve the 192 intersection where I'm sure something similar happened. Either way that road shouldn't exist.

 

[mmascari]

Well of course. People forget that Disneyland exists without RCID.

Because the 500 acres of Disneyland has the same type of road, water, sewer, electric, transit, fire, ems issues when compared to the 27,000 acres of Disney World?

There's no obvious difference between the two that creates differences in how those problems might be solved and managed?

Is there anther similar attraction in the US that cover more than 25,000 acres? How about 20,000, 10,000, or even over 5,000?

Not like a park where it's mostly open space. But, some other attraction that has a similar size of building infrastructure even if not the same number of visitors, but say at least 50% of the same number of visitors. Before someone suggests the Grand Canyon or some private hunting club on 50,000 acres of woods with 10,000 visitors a year.

It's not that you couldn't have WDW without RCID. It's that having it has created better ways to evolve it than not having it would have, at the scale of WDW.

 

[flynnibus]

Well of course. People forget that Disneyland exists without RCID. Of course Disney paid for all that I-5 work in the late 1990s

And everyone gets a nice hefty tax overlay district with the Anaheim Resort District with it's fatty hotel taxes!

That really stuck it to Disney!

That's the real alternative when comparing RCID existing or not... the ARD was done to modernize the area and look at how it was funded...

 

[GoofGoof]

Because the 500 acres of Disneyland has the same type of road, water, sewer, electric, transit, fire, ems issues when compared to the 27,000 acres of Disney World?

There's no obvious difference between the two that creates differences in how those problems might be solved and managed?

Is there anther similar attraction in the US that cover more than 25,000 acres? How about 20,000, 10,000, or even over 5,000?

Not like a park where it's mostly open space. But, some other attraction that has a similar size of building infrastructure even if not the same number of visitors, but say at least 50% of the same number of visitors. Before someone suggests the Grand Canyon or some private hunting club on 50,000 acres of woods with 10,000 visitors a year.

It's not that you couldn't have WDW without RCID. It's that having it has created better ways to evolve it than not having it would have, at the scale of WDW.

I think mostly everyone here would agree with this. WDW is pretty much one of a kind in terms of scale which creates a unique situation. That is why any comparisons to “other businesses” in FL is naive at best and in most cases based on an agenda that has very little to do with fairness or a level playing field.

 

[Rich Brownn]

The interchange is still horrible, between there and Champions Gate it backs up badly every day, multiple times and there is no real alternate routes to get over west to US 17.

Different interchange. It's also being rebuilt.

 

[Brian]

DeSantis: Special session on Disneyâs Reedy Creek expected next week

The Governor's press office confirmed this evening it "anticipates" a special session next week to address Reedy Creek and other items.

www.wftv.com

 

[lazyboy97o]

This suddenly cannot wait a month after nothing happening for months?

 

[drnilescrane]

This suddenly cannot wait a month after nothing happening for months?

He's a) been embarrassed by the plan that's not a plan and needs a shiny thing to keep the PR machine moving and b) is probably loosing the room while the Disney Tallahassee machine silently works.

The sooner they get a plan on the books - his plan - the more likely it sticks.

 

[JoeCamel]

This suddenly cannot wait a month after nothing happening for months?

Never mind the extra cost to the taxpayer of holding a special session. Man has no idea of who pays the bills

 

[flynnibus]

shocker... another special session so they can skirt all the rules... again