News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[lazyboy97o]

How? The legislature passed FL House Bill 486, which was signed into law on May 12, 1967. I’ve seen no record of a public ballot or vote in favor of this move beyond this legislative act, before or after its enactment.

Please show me a public ballot initiative whereby the citizens of those counties or what would become the RCID voted in favor of its creation.

The new district proposed by Universal will
not be put up for a vote by Orange County residents. That’s not how special districts are created. The neighbors don’t get a say. It’s like saying something in Orlando is invalid because it wasn’t the result of a county wide referendum.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I never said it was built around public referendum. I agree with you. That’s why I was responding to the OP who was asking if the public had a vote on this.

Ok…then stop reversing yourself and asking if “the people” got to vote on it?

That fence post is gonna start to leave a mark soon

 

[LAKid53]

The new district proposed by Universal will
not be put up for a vote by Orange County residents. That’s not how special districts are created. The neighbors don’t get a say. It’s like saying something in Orlando is invalid because it wasn’t the result of a county wide referendum.

Correct.

 

[LAKid53]

Was this discussed?

I see several problems with these proposals:

1. Forcing a private corporation to retire municipal bonds that are guaranteed by the taxing authority of that special district may violate several provisions of Article VII of the Florida Constitution. Furthermore, unless the bond covenants allow for such, that would be a violation of same and allow the injured party to sue.
2. What is being proposed with regards to the creation, structure and operations is already covered by Section 189.031, F.S., as RCID would be, statutorily, an INDEPENDENT special district. IF the Legislature drafts law that specifically targets TWDC, then that is a violation of the Florida Constitution.
3. Under Section 189.031(4)(d)2 and 3, F.S., the two municipalities of Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista can create a regional special district.

With regards to the issue of free speech, that is covered under the Florida Constitution, Article I, Section 4, Freedom of Speech and Press

Citizens United granted political free speech rights to corporations. Therefore, the Florida Constitution must comply.

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm not sure exactly how it would all work, but how would Disney's changed status be any different than the way Universal or Sea World is currently managed? Any insight would be helpful.

Here is a long winded summary of how things work:

All of the services provided by RCID to Disney are provided to Universal and Sea World by local municipalities directly and paid for by all property owners (including Disney) through real estate taxes. The services provided by RCID are paid for by a special tax assessment to the landowners in the special district (primarily Disney but there are a few others). The landowners covered by RCID (mainly Disney) still pay the full amount of taxes to the local counties, mostly Orange County but also Osceola. So said another way Disney is paying its full allotment of local real estate taxes to the local counties plus an additional tax assessment to RCID. The services provided by RCID include emergency services (fire and EMS) as well as infrastructure like waste treatment, road construction and repairs and utility services.

So Orange and Osceola counties get their full tax payments from Disney but RCID provides some of the standard services normally covered by those taxes. It’s a big windfall for the counties. That’s why when this first happened the counties were very vocal about having the potential cost to local taxpayers if the district is just dissolved and not replaced with anything else. If the counties had to pick up those services (like they do for Universal and Sea World) it would result in a large increase in real estate taxes for all taxpayers, as much as 25% based on one source quoted here many pages back.

So if Disney is actually paying more in taxes with RCID then they would without it why would they oppose dissolving the district? The main answer is they want control of how those services are provided. If Disney wants a pot hole filled on one of the RCID roads they just make a call and it’s done. If the county is in charge of those roads they need to get in line with everyone else. Disney also controls which projects get done and when. So when Disney they wanted a parking garage for Disney Springs or a new overpass approaching MK they have RCID add those projects to the list. Since Disney has full control of RCID they control what gets done. They can also finance the cost of the projects using municipal bonds to spread the cost over multiple years. RCID issues the bonds and then pays them back over a period of time (say 10 years) and the repayment is funded by real estate tax collected (mostly from Disney). Disney loss controls EMS and fire services so they can ensure if you take an ambulance ride from MK to a local hospital in a RCID ambulance you pay nothing and they will get you back to WDW if you don’t have to stay. Another example of Disney having control.

The other issue is that over time RCID has issued bonds to cover the cost of projects that are currently being paid back (almost a billion outstanding). So if the district is dissolved the way state law works is all assets and liabilities of the special district revert to the local municipal government. So Orange and Osceola Counties would potentially be on the hook to pay back those bonds back and they would need to use local real estate tax dollars to do it. Since there is no legal mechanism to charge a Landowner a special assessment from the county it would be covered by all local taxpayers. There’s also some questions as to whether the bonds can even be transferred and could result in a bond holder lawsuit.

So after all of that, to answer your question, without RCID Disney would operate in some ways very similar to Universal or Sea World. They would receive all of the RCID services from the counties, they would pay no more in county real estate taxes, they would no longer pay real estate taxes to RCID and they would no longer have control of which projects get done and when. So TWDC would save money on taxes and lose control. They could still do infrastructure projects and agree to pay for them themselves or share with the county. Recently Universal got approval for $300M+ road project for their new park that is being paid half by Universal and half by the county. Disney could and would do similar things.

The biggest losers of RCID going away would be local taxpayers (including Universal and Sea World) who today pay nothing towards Disney property projects or emergency services but would have to start footing the bill going forward.

 

[GoofGoof]

I completely disagree with your first point,
Upon dissolution, these service costs will be shifted to the counties. The company would still need to pay for receiving these services, but current state law requires that all areas of a county be taxed equally. Any new tax imposed to cover the new administration costs would apply countywide to everyone. The effect would be a tax break for Disney, as Orange and Osceola County residents subsidize the former district’s service tax costs.

Disney also pays roughly $58 million every year in taxes to service Reedy Creek’s bond debt. It is estimated that the RCID currently has around $1 billion in bond liabilities. Absent additional legislation, the bond debt would be transferred to the counties upon the district’s dissolution with no new revenue to offset this new cost.

Technically if the services are absorbed by the counties every taxpayer in Orange County would have to pay more in taxes so Disney would pay more to Orange and Osceola Counties but they would pay zero to RCID so their total taxes would drop. Every other local taxpayer would see a pin increase.

 

[lazyboy97o]

All of the services provided by RCID to Disney are provided to Universal and Sea World by Orange County directly

Universal Orlando Resort North Campus (the portion open today) is in the City of Orlando, not unincorporated Orange County.

 

[GoofGoof]

Was this discussed?

I’m not sure how this can be classified as “revealing a plan“. If I stand in the middle of the street in my underwear and declare that I’m wearing fancy new pants it doesn’t mean I’m actually wearing pants. There is no actual plan here.

 

[GoofGoof]

Universal Orlando Resort North Campus (the portion open today) is in the City of Orlando, not unincorporated Orange County.

So those services are not provided by the City of Orlando? Universal pays for them directly?

 

[lazyboy97o]

So those services are not provided by the City of Orlando? Universal pays for them directly?

Yes, they’re provided by the city, not the county as you stated. Some work is paid for more directly by Universal by additional taxes levied. Revenues generated at Universal Orlando Resort fund bonds that were issued to pay for improvements that turned Universal Studios Florida into Universal Orlando Resort.

 

[GoofGoof]

Yes, they’re provided by the city, not the county as you stated. Some work is paid for more directly by Universal by additional taxes levied. Revenues generated at Universal Orlando Resort fund bonds that were issued to pay for improvements that turned Universal Studios Florida into Universal Orlando Resort.

I edited my original post. I don’t think it changes the point either way.

 

[LAKid53]

Here is a long winded summary of how things work:

All of the services provided by RCID to Disney are provided to Universal and Sea World by local municipalities directly and paid for by all property owners (including Disney) through real estate taxes. The services provided by RCID are paid for by a special tax assessment to the landowners in the special district (primarily Disney but there are a few others). The landowners covered by RCID (mainly Disney) still pay the full amount of taxes to the local counties, mostly Orange County but also Osceola. So said another way Disney is paying its full allotment of local real estate taxes to the local counties plus an additional tax assessment to RCID. The services provided by RCID include emergency services (fire and EMS) as well as infrastructure like waste treatment, road construction and repairs and utility services.

So Orange and Osceola counties get their full tax payments from Disney but RCID provides some of the standard services normally covered by those taxes. It’s a big windfall for the counties. That’s why when this first happened the counties were very vocal about having the potential cost to local taxpayers if the district is just dissolved and not replaced with anything else. If the counties had to pick up those services (like they do for Universal and Sea World) it would result in a large increase in real estate taxes for all taxpayers, as much as 25% based on one source quoted here many pages back.

So if Disney is actually paying more in taxes with RCID then they would without it why would they oppose dissolving the district? The main answer is they want control of how those services are provided. If Disney wants a pot hole filled on one of the RCID roads they just make a call and it’s done. If the county is in charge of those roads they need to get in line with everyone else. Disney also controls which projects get done and when. So when Disney they wanted a parking garage for Disney Springs or a new overpass approaching MK they have RCID add those projects to the list. Since Disney has full control of RCID they control what gets done. They can also finance the cost of the projects using municipal bonds to spread the cost over multiple years. RCID issues the bonds and then pays them back over a period of time (say 10 years) and the repayment is funded by real estate tax collected (mostly from Disney). Disney loss controls EMS and fire services so they can ensure if you take an ambulance ride from MK to a local hospital in a RCID ambulance you pay nothing and they will get you back to WDW if you don’t have to stay. Another example of Disney having control.

The other issue is that over time RCID has issued bonds to cover the cost of projects that are currently being paid back (almost a billion outstanding). So if the district is dissolved the way state law works is all assets and liabilities of the special district revert to the local municipal government. So Orange and Osceola Counties would potentially be on the hook to pay back those bonds back and they would need to use local real estate tax dollars to do it. Since there is no legal mechanism to charge a Landowner a special assessment from the county it would be covered by all local taxpayers. There’s also some questions as to whether the bonds can even be transferred and could result in a bond holder lawsuit.

So after all of that, to answer your question, without RCID Disney would operate in some ways very similar to Universal or Sea World. They would receive all of the RCID services from the counties, they would pay no more in county real estate taxes, they would no longer pay real estate taxes to RCID and they would no longer have control of which projects get done and when. So TWDC would save money on taxes and lose control. They could still do infrastructure projects and agree to pay for them themselves or share with the county. Recently Universal got approval for $300M+ road project for their new park that is being paid half by Universal and half by the county. Disney could and would do similar things.

The biggest losers of RCID going away would be local taxpayers (including Universal and Sea World) who today pay nothing towards Disney property projects or emergency services but would have to start footing the bill going forward.

Well said and spot on.

 

[LAKid53]

So those services are not provided by the City of Orlando? Universal pays for them directly?

Orange County, payment via property taxes, provides garbage collection. Currently, RCID provides that service for WDW.

I live in Horizons West (Disney Winter Garden), about 200 yards from the western edge of Reedy Creek. I pay Orange County directly for water and waste, as I'm not in the Orlando city limits. I imagine other cities/towns outside of the City proper have the same arrangement with the County for certain services. My power is provided by Duke Electric.

 

[GoofGoof]

Orange County, payment via property taxes, provides garbage collection. Currently, RCID provides that service for WDW.

I live in Horizons West (Disney Winter Garden), about 200 yards from the western edge of Reedy Creek. I pay Orange County directly for water and waste, as I'm not in the Orlando city limits. I imagine other cities/towns outside of the City proper have the same arrangement with the County for certain services. My power is provided by Duke Electric.

I imagine it’s quite a bit of trash generated by WDW

 

[LAKid53]

Please to keep in mind that Citizen's United is a narrow 5-4 decision that can be interpreted in several ways.

Citizen's United is not some widely praised decision with universal support. Kennedy wrote the majority opinion, but no other justice fully joined with Kennedy. Instead, there were two other concurring opinions, meaning 3 different opinions in the "majority" of 5! The 5 justices agreed on the end results, but they used different logic to get there.

Meanwhile, the 4 liberal justices strongly opposed the majority opinion.

It would not take much for the current Supreme Court to decide that Citizen's United was wrong, or that it does not apply in this particular case. After all, Citizen's United was focused on whether a film violated the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act. Will justices decide that Citizen's United equally applies to what happened to Disney?

Personally, I think Disney should win in a free speech case, but I would not bet the farm on it. And I certainly would not lean too heavily on Citizen's United.

I'm not a fan of Citizens United. But it can be applied in instances in which a corporation is penalized by government at any level for political speech.

 

[LAKid53]

I imagine it’s quite a bit of trash generated by WDW

Running through the backstage area of WS where the dumpsters are, I can confirm such based solely on the odor at 6 AM.

 

[mikejs78]

Maybe.

For example, in his majority opinion Associate Justice Anthony Kennedy specifically wrote:

If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.​

Since Disney was not "fined" or "jailed", does Citizen's United apply?

Citizen's United was in response to campaign finance reform. The State of Florida did nothing to limit Disney's campaign spending.

IMO, the governor intended to "chill" (a word found in Citizen's United and other Supreme Court rulings) Disney's free speech. This is why, IMO, it's a First Amendment violation.

However, I am less sure that the current justices think the same way about what the State of Florida did to Disney.

You admit that you are not a fan of Citizen's United. Many others feel the same way. At least some are serving on the U.S. Supreme Court.

The majority of people on the current court wanted Citizens United to go further than it did.

 

[LAKid53]

Maybe.

For example, in his majority opinion Associate Justice Anthony Kennedy specifically wrote:

If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.​

Since Disney was not "fined" or "jailed", does Citizen's United apply?

Citizen's United was in response to campaign finance reform. The State of Florida did nothing to limit Disney's campaign spending.

IMO, the governor intended to "chill" (a word found in Citizen's United and other Supreme Court rulings) Disney's free speech. This is why, IMO, it's a First Amendment violation.

However, I am less sure that the current justices think the same way about what the State of Florida did to Disney.

You admit that you are not a fan of Citizen's United. Many others feel the same way. At least some are serving on the U.S. Supreme Court.

Taking away the benefits RCID provides TWDC is clearly, IMHO, punishment that meets the "chill" test in Citizens. More importantly, though, will a SCOTUS that has shown disdain for stare decisis do so in this instance?

 

[LAKid53]

The majority of people on the current court wanted Citizens United to go further than it did.

The only way Citizens could have gone further was if SCOTUS granted corporations another basic constitutional right. Which would be pretty difficult to do as corporations are legal entities that exist primarily for tax and liability purposes.

 

[mikejs78]

3 different opinions in the "majority" of 5

I just reread the concurring opinions of Justices Roberts and Scalia - neither differed in opinion with Kennedy's majority opinion. Rather, Roberts wrote to say why Stare Decisis did not apply, and Scalia wrote to counter the arguments of the dissent. Thomas and Alito joined with the majority opinion without comment. It's likely that at least those three would consider corporations as people and side with Disney here. So you would then need two of Kavanaugh and Barrett to go along, to say nothing of the three progressive judges who may also go along because of the principle of precident.