News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[flynnibus]

Just to keep everyone on the same page re property taxes.

How Florida Property Tax Valuation Works • Property Tax Adjustments & Appeals, P.A.

Though Florida property tax appraisers must complete property valuations every year, they’re not always set in stone. Just what goes into those valuations? The appraisers look at such factors as the current use of the property and the prices of similar ones that have sold. Fair market value, the...

www.proptaxadjust.com

Counties set their own sales taxes, but AFAIK the voters have a say. I know an amendment to raise our local sales taxes by 1/2% was on a ballot. There has to be a specific reason given for raising the tax.

You blurred lines there though. Voting for a SALES tax increase is not the same management for property taxes.

Property tax rates are usually set by the governing body annually based on their budget planning. As your article states, the assessors are supposed to value property independent of the budget process. But once done, they have a number of what the property values are in the jurisdiction and then the governing body picks a tax rate knowing what that tax rate will generate in revenue.

Changing the property tax rate is the most common revenue tweak locales use year to year to plan their revenue... and happens without the voters directly.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well who do you think is going to own the electricity-providing infrastructure (that RCID now owns) once RCID is dissolved? You know that electricity-providing infrastructure that RCID currently uses to pay for the much-referenced $2 billion (it's really more like $1 billion, but I digress) bond debt?

Orange County does not operate electric services. Just like the vast majority of the county service is provided by a private company, Reedy Creek Energy Services.

 

[lordsigma]

Disney deserves what it got in this issue.

Chapek should be fired. Disney is an entertainment company and not a caterer to the left or right. Disney should be doing what they had done best for a long, long time. That is entertain and make a park for everyone like they have in the past. Chapek throws his hat in the ring and burns the company. Temperance in business has always been the best form of operation, know when to speak and know when not to speak.

If Capek would have kept his mouth shut and tried not to cater to a minority, do you really think this would have at all happened? There are teachings in schools of sexual orientation truly going in schools in the USA. This I have seen and told firsthand by teachers. Here is how I look at it. No one will tell little ones about sexual orientation at that young age. Let the children be children, it is not the schools right and is the right of the parents. No critical race theory which is completely bogus and brain washing.

I am not going back to Disney for a very long time. The sad part is either is my daughter and her family/my grandchildren. Disney streaming has been cancelled and a lot of parents out there has lost trust in Disney and will take a lot of work to try and get them back. Disney overreached and got what they asked for. The stocks are far from over from spiraling downward. Disney streaming will eventually be a Netflix if it is already not heading that way.

Goodbye Disney, I have a lot of better places to spend my money and be entertained. Yes, I am angry at Disney because there was a lot of happy times there. But they get so dam greedy and forget what the goal and reason they were in business for. Disney was better than that. But sadly, no more. I am not the only family that feels this way and Disney now has to crash and figure out what to do and correct the ship if that is even possible.

Great and totally within your right as a consumer. When a company makes a political statement on a sensitive issue they reap what they sow as far as the market. But all of that is 100% irrelevant to the topic at hand. It isn't a contradiction to have the position you have but still think DeSantis is wrong. You are exercising your first amendment rights and your rights as a consumer in the free market to boycott Disney. But Bob Chapek also has first amendment rights free from retaliation by the government whether you like him or not. Either one believes in free speech or they don't - based on your comments I suspect you are a conservative and I am sure you agree with a literal interpretation of the bill of rights - there is absolutely no gray area when it comes to free speech.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

This is the absolute-ism that just makes all this crap go in circles. This is not a binary thing. The reality is it's good for some things, worse for others.
...

Well, 1st Amendment infringement law is absolutism. Either the state is infringing on someone's right to participate in political (or societal) speech, or they are not. There is not middle ground. So if no benefit is being taken away from Disney, there is literally no infringement. End of story. Now, of course there is a benefit being taken away, which at least opens the door to a discussion of 1st Amendment law. But to acknowledge RCID is a benefit to Disney is to also acknowledge that some in this thread have been incredibly disingenuous in the discussion.

The 'gain' or not for Disney is very complex - you can't dismiss it with one liners. But what we do know is they've preferred to KEEP it all these years... so all the overhead and expenses have been considered at least valuable enough to the company to keep it as it is.

That they preferred to keep it is the best possible evidence you can have that Disney viewed RCID as a benefit.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Orange County does not operate electric services. Just like the vast majority of the county service is provided by a private company, Reedy Creek Energy Services.

And who owns Reedy Creek Energy Services?

 

[The Mom]

You blurred lines there though. Voting for a SALES tax increase is not the same management for property taxes.

Property tax rates are usually set by the governing body annually based on their budget planning. As your article states, the assessors are supposed to value property independent of the budget process. But once done, they have a number of what the property values are in the jurisdiction and then the governing body picks a tax rate knowing what that tax rate will generate in revenue.

Changing the property tax rate is the most common revenue tweak locales use year to year to plan their revenue... and happens without the voters directly.

I was talking about the two main taxes that FL residents pay - I did not say they were handled or created the same way. We also pay a certain amount to the St John's water management district, but in JAX we are not assessed a separate fee for waste management, but in Putnam county we are.

 

[peter11435]

Well, 1st Amendment infringement law is absolutism. Either the state is infringing on someone's right to participate in political (or societal) speech, or they are not. There is not middle ground. So if no benefit is being taken away from Disney, there is literally no infringement. End of story. Now, of course there is a benefit being taken away, which at least opens the door to a discussion of 1st Amendment law. But to acknowledge RCID is a benefit to Disney is to also acknowledge that some in this thread have been incredibly disingenuous in the discussion.


That they preferred to keep it is the best possible evidence you can have that Disney viewed RCID as a benefit.

I haven’t seen anyone in this thread claim that RCID is of no benefit to Disney.

 

[Brian]

And who owns Reedy Creek Energy Services?

Disney.

 

[mmascari]

But why would Disney fight this in court if they'll get away scot-free with billions in bond debt while receiving massive tax breaks?

They might not. Have we actually seen any statements from Disney about fighting or not fighting this?

Without any statements, we could say they're just as likely to try an issue another billion dollars of bonds, if anyone will buy them, that will also get dumped off.

Somewhere in an office right now is are some finance and strategic planning wonks doing the math on impacts from transferring the bonds, impacts to tax burden, possible impacts as counties get creative to try and keep the taxes, impacts to losing control of planning, impacts of Disney's needs just being another need in the county vs the sole needs being managed, how those impacts will work out short term and long term. Combined with if there are enough short term gains to making finding other long term solutions better. If you're the wonk and posting here, please blink twice.

Exactly how much is all the control Disney has worth to them?

No matter what else, we know that loss of the district will reduce the control Disney has on how and what things are done. Is keeping that control worth the fight and how does it balance out against the other items?


Using that World Drive flyover intersection redesign, which I'm assuming was actually RCID project until someone says otherwise. Wasn't that part 1 of 3 of work to redesign all the public roads around Floridian Way? And, hasn't there been lots of assumption that Disney may build a new hotel along that route. So, if we pretend that long term Disney wants to build a new hotel over there, and that they need better roads on that side of the area to support a new hotel long term. Plus better roads to support the existing hotels shorter term. Having control of RCID to set the priority on those projects so they'll meet the short term goals and position them for the long term has value. Without the control, they can lobby the county to make them a priority. Maybe they get it, maybe it get's delayed. If it's delayed, that has a direct impact on the planning. If we pretend they want to open that new pretend hotel in 5 years and need the roads done in 3 to accomplish this, the loss of control could cause a delay that ripples down and impacts that timeline. Suddenly the 5 year hotel plan is a 10 year plan, maybe, or 15 year.

 

[Lilofan]

I haven’t seen anyone in this thread claim that RCID is of no benefit to Disney.

RCID is a benefit to guests and cast. 24/7 paramedics check up and or transport to local hospital of choice. Free of charge to patient.

 

[flynnibus]

I didn't misrepresent anything and I resent that you insinuated I did. Either Florida can remove RCID or it cannot. If RCID is not a "benefit" to Disney, then it cannot possibly be a 1st Amendment-infringing "punishment" to remove RCID. So the question remains, does Disney receive a benefit from the existence of RCID?

The answer of course, is that it is a benefit to them. If it was a not a benefit to the company, Disney would have spent the last 50 years trying to get rid of it themselves. This whole suggestion that Disney does not benefit from RCID is absurd.

You are mashing up different things and treating them as the same and connecting. That's not how it works. You can have a NET benefit without your individual citations of benefit being accurate.

Just because Disney may benefit as a whole - doesn't mean you can claim a net benefits on every line item.. or vise versa. (like taxes). The lower items are not all in alignment with the top line answer. You keep mixing and matching like it's all equal - it's not.

ultimately your 'they can or can not' answer will come from the court - because of the 1) incomplete rushed laws and 2) topics that require interpretation.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Do you have a quote or source for that? Just because he said it doesn’t make it true. Another state legislator said Disney was building a 4th hotel and movie studio here too.

Florida taxpayers could face a $1 billion Disney debt bomb if its special district status is revoked

The Florida legislature on Thursday cleared a bill that would dissolve Disney's special improvement district, effective June 2023.

www.cnbc.com

On taxes:

"Florida state Rep. Randy Fine, R-Palm Bay, who has helped champion the bill, told CNBC on Thursday that local taxpayers would not pay more — and could actually benefit from Reedy Creek’s elimination. Fine said the tax revenue that Disney pays would be transferred to local government and could more than pay for the added services.

“Those taxes will continue to be paid,” he said. “They will just be paid to Orange and Osceola county instead of this special improvement district. The taxpayers could end up saving money because you’ve got duplicative services that are being provided by this special district that are already being done by those municipalities.”"

On bond debt:

"Fine argued that if the bonds are transferred to the counties, the tax revenue that currently funds the bond payments would also be transferred.

“The Reedy Creek Improvement District is a local government right now,” he said. “So the taxpayers of that district already owe that money. Yes, the bonds would go to other municipal governments in the same place. But the revenues go along with it. Disney is taxed by this improvement district. Those taxes are used to pay that debt.”"

 

[lazyboy97o]

And who owns Reedy Creek Energy Services?

It is a wholly owned subsidiary of The Walt Disney Company.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Florida taxpayers could face a $1 billion Disney debt bomb if its special district status is revoked

The Florida legislature on Thursday cleared a bill that would dissolve Disney's special improvement district, effective June 2023.

www.cnbc.com

On taxes:

"Florida state Rep. Randy Fine, R-Palm Bay, who has helped champion the bill, told CNBC on Thursday that local taxpayers would not pay more — and could actually benefit from Reedy Creek’s elimination. Fine said the tax revenue that Disney pays would be transferred to local government and could more than pay for the added services.

“Those taxes will continue to be paid,” he said. “They will just be paid to Orange and Osceola county instead of this special improvement district. The taxpayers could end up saving money because you’ve got duplicative services that are being provided by this special district that are already being done by those municipalities.”"

On bond debt:

"Fine argued that if the bonds are transferred to the counties, the tax revenue that currently funds the bond payments would also be transferred.

“The Reedy Creek Improvement District is a local government right now,” he said. “So the taxpayers of that district already owe that money. Yes, the bonds would go to other municipal governments in the same place. But the revenues go along with it. Disney is taxed by this improvement district. Those taxes are used to pay that debt.”"

He is clearly operating under the incorrect assumption that Disney pays taxes to the District in lieu of paying them to the counties.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Just because Disney may benefit as a whole - doesn't mean you can claim a net benefits on every line item.. or vise versa. (like taxes).

Can you demonstrate where I claimed this?

DIFFICULTY: It's an impossible task because I never did and you're arguing with a strawman.

 

[GimpYancIent]

Florida taxpayers could face a $1 billion Disney debt bomb if its special district status is revoked

The Florida legislature on Thursday cleared a bill that would dissolve Disney's special improvement district, effective June 2023.

www.cnbc.com

On taxes:

"Florida state Rep. Randy Fine, R-Palm Bay, who has helped champion the bill, told CNBC on Thursday that local taxpayers would not pay more — and could actually benefit from Reedy Creek’s elimination. Fine said the tax revenue that Disney pays would be transferred to local government and could more than pay for the added services.

“Those taxes will continue to be paid,” he said. “They will just be paid to Orange and Osceola county instead of this special improvement district. The taxpayers could end up saving money because you’ve got duplicative services that are being provided by this special district that are already being done by those municipalities.”"

On bond debt:

"Fine argued that if the bonds are transferred to the counties, the tax revenue that currently funds the bond payments would also be transferred.

“The Reedy Creek Improvement District is a local government right now,” he said. “So the taxpayers of that district already owe that money. Yes, the bonds would go to other municipal governments in the same place. But the revenues go along with it. Disney is taxed by this improvement district. Those taxes are used to pay that debt.”"

Got it. Simply same money just flowing differently.

 

[flynnibus]

You believe Orange County doesn't have the legal authority to institute the exact same taxes that RCID has the legal authority to implement?

Then those would be NEW taxes - not simply the old taxes going to the County. And their taxing authority is different and RCID didn't have to work around the targeting limitations the county would.

So can they do new taxes YES - Will they get the old RCID tax money? NO

 

[AdventureHasAName]

He is clearly operating under the incorrect assumption that Disney pays taxes to the District in lieu of paying them to the counties.

Or alternatively, he's indicating that the state legislature will be taking further action facilitating Orange County's absorption of RCID.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

So can they do new taxes YES - Will they get the old RCID tax money? NO

What's the difference? X amount of dollars from Entity A (Disney) to Entity B (RCID/Orange County) is still X amount of dollars. The debate for the last 70 pages has been over whether or not Orange County will be able to recover money from Disney to make up for any debt it might have to assume. What you call it or how they do it is irrelevant if everyone acknowledges the County has the ability to make sure X amount of dollars shows up.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Or alternatively, he's indicating that the state legislature will be taking further action facilitating Orange County's absorption of RCID.

Again, something that should have been done already. The possibility of getting around to it some time in the next year isn’t a solution and doesn’t deal with the costs that will start being incurred as soon as the bill is signed.