News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[flynnibus]

So who gets the sales tax that Disney already charges?

Orange County and the state at those locations in Orange, and conversely the same for Osceola located properties.

Sales tax is not levied by RCID and they don't get any of it for themselves.

(Different taxes goto different places.. this is not a new concept)

 

[Dranth]

Or alternatively, he's indicating that the state legislature will be taking further action facilitating Orange County's absorption of RCID.

Could be, but you potentially start running into the state constitution issues when it comes to taxes so that may limit what they can do as I don't believe they have the numbers to change it.

 

[flynnibus]

This is just nonsense. The state senator who wrote the bill has literally said over and over and over and over again that the county will ultimately end up receiving all of the taxes receipts that RCID has historically received.

Well, the Senator has already demonstrated their lack of competency on the topic - why do you think he's the final say here on a topic they literally have no direct hand in?

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Again, something that should have been done already. The possibility of getting around to it some time in the next year isn’t a solution and doesn’t deal with the costs that will start being incurred as soon as the bill is signed.

That's not the point. You said there was no indication. There clearly is an indication that it will happen (coming straight from the guy who wrote the bill and pushed the legislation) and has been since the day he suggested it.

 

[yensid1967]

It is a wholly owned subsidiary of The Walt Disney Company.

if its owned by Disney wouldn't they have to pay Disney to use it or buy it out right?

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Well, the Senator has already demonstrated their lack of competency on the topic - why do you think he's the final say here on a topic they literally have no direct hand in?

So, I ask again (for like the 30th time in the thread) ... your belief is that the Republican Governor and Republican state legislature (that just dissolved RCID in order to punch Disney in the nose) is going to just shrug its shoulders and say, "Our work here is done" and gift Disney a massive tax break debt forgiveness rather than follow-through with the course of action that the Republican state senator WHO WROTE THE BILL says they will? That's your belief?

EDIT: Since the phrase "tax break" will assuredly cause another 25 pages of irrelevant arguing over whether something is a "tax" or some other form of debt, let's just change it to "debt forgiveness."

 

[peter11435]

Got it. Simply same money just flowing differently.

Except what he said is incorrect

 

[AdventureHasAName]

It is a wholly owned subsidiary of The Walt Disney Company.

Are you sure it's not owned by RCID?

 

[lazyboy97o]

That's not the point. You said there was no indication. There clearly is an indication that it will happen (coming straight from the guy who wrote the bill and pushed the legislation) and has been since the day he suggested it.

That’s not an indication. The same representative made conflicting statements regarding the purpose of the bill. He has not been honest about this process. He has no power to call another special session, the soonest he can do anything is next year a few months before the District is to be dissolved well after new expenses have been incurred.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Yes, but there was a sizable portion of the commentariat in this thread that was trying to hide-the-ball and pretend RCID wasn't providing a state-implemented benefit to the Walt Disney Company and further pretend that it was actually a benefit to Disney that it was being dissolved. I just wanted to, once and for all, make that portion of our posters truthfully acknowledge that the RCID is a state benefit provided to Disney and (further) that Disney is being disadvantaged by losing RCID.

I'd also be delighted if this portion of the posters would ask themselves why politicians and the media would suggest otherwise, when they know it not to be true ... but I'll take small victories as they come.

Nobody has said there was no benefit to Disney by having RCID exist. The only claims of any benefits that were refuted were false claims of RCID providing a tax break or loopholes that allow WDW to not follow regulations like building codes. It has been acknowledged multiple times that there is a benefit to Disney - it let's them avoid bureaucratic delays for projects such as maintaining and/or improving roadways within WDW. The trade-off for that benefit is that Disney pays for those projects themselves whereas they would shift that burden to local taxpayers without RCID's existence. So the harm to Disney caused by losing RCID would be delayed projects for things like basic road maintenance and changes to traffic patterns. This hurts them because it can lead to traffic congestion and possibly subpar workmanship since they wouldn't be the ones selecting the contractors (and the County is likely to select the cheapest bid instead of the bidder who does the best work because elected officials care less about long-lasting quality repairs than they do about pretending they saved taxpayers money -even if that means the work has to be repeated more frequently as a result). It also could result in higher interest rates for bonds they issue since the interest earned by lenders/bondholders would be subject to state and federal taxes.

 

[mmascari]

Florida taxpayers could face a $1 billion Disney debt bomb if its special district status is revoked

The Florida legislature on Thursday cleared a bill that would dissolve Disney's special improvement district, effective June 2023.

www.cnbc.com

On taxes:

"Florida state Rep. Randy Fine, R-Palm Bay, who has helped champion the bill, told CNBC on Thursday that local taxpayers would not pay more — and could actually benefit from Reedy Creek’s elimination. Fine said the tax revenue that Disney pays would be transferred to local government and could more than pay for the added services.

“Those taxes will continue to be paid,” he said. “They will just be paid to Orange and Osceola county instead of this special improvement district. The taxpayers could end up saving money because you’ve got duplicative services that are being provided by this special district that are already being done by those municipalities.”"

On bond debt:

"Fine argued that if the bonds are transferred to the counties, the tax revenue that currently funds the bond payments would also be transferred.

“The Reedy Creek Improvement District is a local government right now,” he said. “So the taxpayers of that district already owe that money. Yes, the bonds would go to other municipal governments in the same place. But the revenues go along with it. Disney is taxed by this improvement district. Those taxes are used to pay that debt.”"

Or alternatively, he's indicating that the state legislature will be taking further action facilitating Orange County's absorption of RCID.

Have I not been following this correctly, they're dissolving the district right? Kind of like a company going bankrupt, chapter 7, and dissolving completely.

Sure, they could add new laws to do it differently, but they didn't. And they set a deadline already, so if they don't do something else, doesn't it just dissolve?

From the reporting, I'm assuming the current law, not some future possible additional change, did transfer the debt and assets of the district to the county. But, it didn't transfer the taxing authority. It just dissolved that. It's like the counties are getting all the assets and debts at liquidation but none of the revenue generating authority. Opps.

Those quotes feel like wishful thinking and not what was actually done.

 

[flynnibus]

What's the difference? X amount of dollars from Entity A (Disney) to Entity B (RCID/Orange County) is still X amount of dollars.

The difference is the means - which is very significant.

If you are in WDW as a result of travel.. and I am in WDW as a result of travel... and you flew to orlando.. you can't assert I flew there as well simply because we both ended up in the same spot.

5 + 5 = 10
8 + 2 = 10

That doesn't means 5 = 8 - just like someone figuring out how to make $150M appear doesn't mean it will be done the same way it was done previously.

Someone trying to argue a net outcome being the same can not assert the intermediate steps are the same. And here in the taxing scenario being discussed... how they get the money through their available avenues will be VERY different.

The simple ad valerom tax RCID used on just those properties can not simply be rolled over to the counties with the same rules and same constraints. New taxes will be constitued to do it - with likely other consequences and impacts.

THATS why it makes a difference. 5 is not equal to 8.

What you call it or how they do it is irrelevant if everyone acknowledges the County has the ability to make sure X amount of dollars shows up.

Its not irrelevant because there will be consequences and others likely caught up in the wash.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sure, they could add new laws to do it differently, but they didn't. And they set a deadline already, so if they don't do something else, doesn't it just dissolve?

And the next legislative session is not until March 2023. That’s not exactly a lot of time to implement a potential solution.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

And the next legislative session is not until March 2023. That’s not exactly a lot of time to implement a potential solution.

Yes, but why would you think they are even considering implementing a potential solution, since you have already explained to us that there has been "no indication" that they intend to do anything further?

 

[flynnibus]

Can you demonstrate where I claimed this?

DIFFICULTY: It's an impossible task because I never did and you're arguing with a strawman.

You conflated the discussion when you improperly mixed in a debate about trying to paint RCID as a 'benefit' the state can revoke with a retort from lazyboy that an example of taxes was not a benefit for Disney.

He was talking 'benefit' as an advantage for tax spending to debunk the assertion in your example. He was debunking an assertion of fact on money -- not your completely different debate over RCID as some perk/advantage to Disney the state should be able to revoke (presumably with the argument that its preferential treatment and thus not punishment to revoke).

He was debunking a line item - you kept going on about trying to defend something completely different.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Those quotes feel like wishful thinking and not what was actually done.

Nobody said it "was actually done." The question was "Is there any indication they intend to do it?" And I said that the state senator who wrote the bill said they intend to do it and that should serve as a fairly good indication. Others feel differently.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

You conflated the discussion when you improperly mixed in a debate about trying to paint RCID as a 'benefit' the state can revoke with a retort from lazyboy that an example of taxes was not a benefit for Disney.

View attachment 634796

He was talking 'benefit' as an advantage for tax spending to debunk the assertion in your example. He was debunking an assertion of fact on money -- not your completely different debate over RCID as some perk/advantage to Disney the state should be able to revoke (presumably with the argument that its preferential treatment and thus not punishment to revoke).

He was debunking a line item - you kept going on about trying to defend something completely different.

That's swell ... but why don't you demonstrate where I "claimed a net benefits [to Disney] on every line item" related to RCID like you said I did? Because that portion you quoted above doesn't claim anything remotely like that. I should know; I was there when I typed it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yes, but why would you think they are even considering implementing a potential solution, since you have already explained to us that there has been "no indication" that they intend to do anything further?

It’s called exploring a hypothetical. I didn’t say I thought they would consider implementing a potential solution, I am pointing out that if there is any such desire it cannot start until March 2023.

 

[flynnibus]

Well, 1st Amendment infringement law is absolutism. Either the state is infringing on someone's right to participate in political (or societal) speech, or they are not. There is not middle ground. So if no benefit is being taken away from Disney, there is literally no infringement. End of story.

Again with this absolutism... No, it's not that binary. I just listened a TON of benefits Disney has - the fact there are other negatives with the improvement district doesn't negate the existence of potential punitive impact this law represents.

In your terms.. there IS middle ground when it comes to impact.

But to acknowledge RCID is a benefit to Disney is to also acknowledge that some in this thread have been incredibly disingenuous in the discussion.

No, it's people talking past each other when one person debunks an assertion and someone else misinterprets the scope of the statement. To say RCID isn't a tax benefit to Disney is not a statement that RCID isn't a benefit to Disney.

Some people just look past specifics and want generalizations and take someone's targeted statement to be something more than it is.

 

[flynnibus]

I was talking about the two main taxes that FL residents pay - I did not say they were handled or created the same way. We also pay a certain amount to the St John's water management district, but in JAX we are not assessed a separate fee for waste management, but in Putnam county we are.

That's why I said 'blurring' and not that you were explicitly incorrect It switched the citation and the statement being made.

As you point out - those are examples of how the tax we pay isn't necessarily uniform - but we can be assessed different fees on a number of factors. Location, overlays, municipalities, etc. The key for this thread though is how those different fees can be assessed is regulated by law - and are not always as flexible or adlib as some would like