peter11435
Well-Known Member
The district was very interested in improving traffic around Downtown Disney. The BVD widening, bus only lanes, centralized bus depot, parking garages, and I4 ramp were all part of that initiative.
Again, scale matters. A budget was set. If the budget gets cut to account for the parking garages then something else has to go to pay for the garages. Right away, that impacts the County because reduced scale means less in assessable improvements.Certainly things could have changed in design, but to present it like DS wouldn't have happened at all.. and get no benefit from the redevelopment... is not real either.
So let's put it in real context... DS was going to happen. The future community benefits you tout were going to happen if DS was a success. Does Disney build one garage instead of three (like the original leaked plans showed). Is the community benefit radically lessened? Are people not coming to DS because of that?
It all boils down to 'was it necessary?' - I advocate no.
Why do you keep ignoring that this is exactly what the state and counties signed up for back in 1967? They knew that this was how the District would operate. And even after this alleged infraction, the counties still wanted to maintain the status quo with RCID. And the State revisited the issue in 2004 and determined that RCID should remain as-is. The FL Office of Program Policy and Government Accountability issued a report saying as much in December 2004.You omit that the county and state didn't even get to make this decision or determination. They are get to accept the consequence. The District's revenues are based on property, not sales tax. So you wanna compare what nearly $100 in district capex looks like vs decreased property taxes on what 'downsizing' Disney might have done and the ROI on that? I can tell you without even doing the napkin math.. that's not a good ROI.
Right there is the problem. When a practice is common and legal then it's not a justification for singling out 1 government entity for reform. If the issue is with governments absorbing costs for private enterprise like this then the issue isn't with RCID but rather with FL laws that allow it in the first place - and every single member of the legislature and the governor himself are guilty of similar behavior in approving public funding for private enterprise. At least now you're finally acknowledging that the point was made after denying that anyone said it for so long.'joined'? been here since the start. What I interjected here is when people tried to deny Disney's role and benefit to having work completed as public works.
'why RCID was bad' is an interesting take. The statement made by the user was:
"
Examples of why it should be reformed:
1) The RCID does not allow the hundreds of thousands of individuals that live near it to participate in its management
2) The RCID and Disney became intertwined and it impacted good governance
3) Disney shifted CapEx from its balance sheet to the local government apparatus, thus obscuring true CapEx"
None of those statements are incorrect. Yet posters went onto claim they were, in particular #3.
The statements on their own are factual - The disagreement is over do they bother you... and if you are ok with that status quo.
Again, the State reviewed it in 2004 and determined it was working as intended and there was nothing to cause them to try to change it.So now, the answer to any criticism of the district is 'you reap what generations before you sowed'?
Should we make the same claim everyone should accept CFTOD's decisions blindly because that's what the state created?
The County isn't giving up any property taxes. If you're this deep into this thread and still think that then you haven't paid attention to anything written. And the counties haven't lost any independence. They have no say in what a local government funds, be it RCID or the City of Orlando.The county didn't agree to giving up property taxes when RCID was created, nor did it sign up to some notion of lack of government independence.
I have no problem with the belief that Disney would have solved their parking problem even without the help of the district. Same way they manage to find a way to pay for it everywhere else.
It was a completely unnecessary concession.
It’s what the state and counties continue to sign up for to this day. Anyone with sizable land holdings can seek a special district that can be used to finance transportation projects. It’s an expected use. Yes, most places aren’t building garages but they’re still missing out on the sales taxes for the infrastructure that in many places would be the responsibility of the developer to build. It’s also possible that a garage can be built later well after the initial decision is made. Universal is free to decide at some future date, even decades from now, to have their district build a garage.Why do you keep ignoring that this is exactly what the state and counties signed up for back in 1967?
Oh my.. maybe we would have lost the amazing elevated railway... or some fountains... I'm sure Disney would have figured out how to keep funding the portion that actually generates revenue... retail footprint.Again, scale matters. A budget was set. If the budget gets cut to account for the parking garages then something else has to go to pay for the garages. Right away, that impacts the County because reduced scale means less in assessable improvements.
Do not overstate what those things meant. They were assessments of the district's purpose and function - not universal rubber stamps of approval for every policy decision they made... and certainly not for decisions they had not yet made.Why do you keep ignoring that this is exactly what the state and counties signed up for back in 1967? They knew that this was how the District would operate. And even after this alleged infraction, the counties still wanted to maintain the status quo with RCID. And the State revisited the issue in 2004 and determined that RCID should remain as-is. The FL Office of Program Policy and Government Accountability issued a report saying as much in December 2004.
The project for the first two garages was estimated at about 85 million initially, and went over budget by about 5 million if I recall. At the time it was estimated by RCID they were saving $1.4 million in sales tax. That doesn't include the 3rd garage that was added.The sales tax rate in Orange County is 0.5%. The County's "lost" one-time sales tax revenue (less than $1 million, which is less than 1% of their $166+ million sales tax collections in 2016) from the garages pales in comparison to what it gained in assessed real property values that are taxed much more than half a percent. A relatively small one-time payment vs. increased tax revenues in perpetuity. I wonder which is better.
By the way, the County's 2016 audit specifically cited the Disney Springs project as one of the projects having a positive impact on the County's financial condition. So why are you acting upset on their behalf when they were clearly pleased???
I point you to my district attorney example before. Policy choices are subject to critique even if legal and can lead to change.Right there is the problem. When a practice is common and legal then it's not a justification for singling out 1 government entity for reform.
If the issue is with governments absorbing costs for private enterprise like this then the issue isn't with RCID but rather with FL laws that allow it in the first place
Yes they are - by having the structures district owned, no one pay property taxes on them. If Disney owned the garages, they would be improvements subject to property tax. Property taxes owed to both the district and the county. You again can't seem to track these essential details.The County isn't giving up any property taxes. If you're this deep into this thread and still think that then you haven't paid attention to anything written.
Ok, this is my last message to you ever because I'm sick of your inability to follow without distorting things into things that were never said.- and every single member of the legislature and the governor himself are guilty of similar behavior in approving public funding for private enterprise. At least now you're finally acknowledging that the point was made after denying that anyone said it for so long.
You lost the context here. Someone suggested that shift was improper and a reason to reform RCID specifically. With that context, the answer is different. It would need to be a shift that is improper, not just one that is part of normal governance.The reason why it's important is because the entire tangent started because people took offense to the comment that someone suggested that Disney is 'shifted' CapEx to the District. And what you describe is exactly that... Disney has a need, and instead of paying for it, they get to "convince" the district it’s in everyone's best interest if the district pays for it instead.
Again, dropping that context matters. A shift isn’t the primary subject here. That it was an improper thing and hence a reason to reform specifically RCID. which also means it would need to be unique. That it is a valid thing, benefit irrelevant, means it’s not a reason to reform specifically RCID. It may be a reason to reform all districts, a different topic.It's exactly the very thing people called 'outright lies' and @mmascari has issue with as well. It doesn't matter if its "valid" or "not unique" -- It was never claimed otherwise.
But the question was, is that a reason that RCID should be reformed specifically instead of all districts? Was that reason unique to RCID and why RCID needs reform and not all districts or was that same thing available to all districts?RCID building the garages was a concession to Disney. A concession that Disney greatly benefits from. An idea that likely came from Disney - not RCID's assessment of underserved needs in the area. So when someone uses it as an example of how Disney benefits from the district by having the district supply capital improvements -- it's true.
I agree with this part. Good or bad policy is a matter of opinion. However, bad valid policy isn’t a reason to reform only RCID.You can also disagree with the decision that the government made this concession to Disney and disagree that it was some necessity by the district.
Not the only, but they were a valid solution. Valid within the defined scope of RCID. Valid in other districts to do the same thing if they desired. Hence, not a reason to target specifically RCID for reform.Yes, because it simply means adding garages IS NOT THE ONLY SOLUTION to a problem.
Also, none of them are reasons RCID should be reformed. 1 is a reason special districts or local government shouldn’t exist. 2 is a reason special districts shouldn’t exist. 3 is missing context to know what CapEx is being referenced. It may or may not be a reason to reform specifically RCID. The follow-up question (unanswered) was if there were examples besides the garages that were often mentioned in the past. Since, we’ve now shown that the garages are not a reason to reform specifically RCID.'why RCID was bad' is an interesting take. The statement made by the user was:
"
Examples of why it should be reformed:
1) The RCID does not allow the hundreds of thousands of individuals that live near it to participate in its management
2) The RCID and Disney became intertwined and it impacted good governance
3) Disney shifted CapEx from its balance sheet to the local government apparatus, thus obscuring true CapEx"
None of those statements are incorrect. Yet posters went onto claim they were, in particular #3.
They don’t exist on their own. They only exist in the context of answering the question why RCID specifically should be reformed.The statements on their own are factual - The disagreement is over do they bother you... and if you are ok with that status quo.
See the great thing about a local government is that the statute that allowed it to exist in the first place spells out what ij can and cannot do, so in affirming the status quo, they affirmed the behavior of the District. Nothing about these garages is different from what was done before.Oh my.. maybe we would have lost the amazing elevated railway... or some fountains... I'm sure Disney would have figured out how to keep funding the portion that actually generates revenue... retail footprint.
Do not overstate what those things meant. They were assessments of the district's purpose and function - not universal rubber stamps of approval for every policy decision they made... and certainly not for decisions they had not yet made.
The $1.4 million in sales tax includes the state's cut. Take 0.5% of $90 million. It's a lot less than $1.4 million. Nearly a million dollars less, in fact.The project for the first two garages was estimated at about 85 million initially, and went over budget by about 5 million if I recall. At the time it was estimated by RCID they were saving $1.4 million in sales tax. That doesn't include the 3rd garage that was added.
The garages would have such a small assessment compared to a parking lot and compared to the improvements made to the rest of the property. Again, you're upset about it when the people impacted are happy. Why should I take your argument over their happiness?One-time per perpetuity? Know what's also in perpetuity? Their lost property tax collection on the improvements.
Because one thing the tax man loves is... more taxes. You're not going to get them complaining about their lost revenue because it's decision they can't influence.
You're comparing apples and oranges.I point you to my district attorney example before. Policy choices are subject to critique even if legal and can lead to change.
You don't think the president telling the AG what not to pursue didn't invite scrutiny even though it's legal?
If the issue is that these types of funded projects happen then you can't just single out 1 entity over all of the others for reform. That doesn't solve the issue if you really think it's a problem. So if it's okay for Orlando to do something like that then it has to be okay for RCID. If you think only RCID needs reform because of this 1 issue then your issue isn't with the policy, it's an issue with Disney and you can't have a good faith discussion.Wait - you're going to throw the baby out with the bath water? Why is it individual bad designs must be tolerated equally with good decisions? Why must they be evaluated as if all were all or nothing? You've never decided one choice was a bad one, even though it was in their power to make that choice?
Again, this is miniscule compared to the benefit and the County has no more of a right to prevent it than they do in any other municipality.Yes they are - by having the structures district owned, no one pay property taxes on them. If Disney owned the garages, they would be improvements subject to property tax. Property taxes owed to both the district and the county. You again can't seem to track these essential details.
Toodles.Ok, this is my last message to you ever because I'm sick of your inability to follow without distorting things into things that were never said.
I don’t have any details I just assumed that Disney didn’t want to give people direct access to their deluxe resortPerhaps someone can help me understand this. When they said Disney said no to a pedestrian bridge, connecting shades of green to the Polynesian, was a reason given?
If I had to guess, I don’t think funding is the problem with this project. My guess would be a technical lack of land to build it on without going into eminent domain, but I don’t know for sure which is why I am asking.
Where is this specifically?Interesting side note, this sign appeared in Celebration today but is using WDW styled signage instead of the CelebrationView attachment 759008 style
Corner of World Drive and Celebration Celebration BLVD. I think technically the land it is on is owned by The Celebration Company aka Disney and/or part of the RCID, but is within the town. Good reminder to residents that the new board controls a lot of land surrounding the town and shouldn’t rely on Debbie to be the only one speaking up.Where is this specifically?
What is the sign on this one?Corner of World Drive and Celebration Celebration BLVD. I think technically the land it is on is owned by The Celebration Company aka Disney and/or part of the RCID, but is within the town. Good reminder to residents that the new board controls a lot of land surrounding the town and shouldn’t rely on Debbie to be the only one speaking up.
Reclaimed water warningWhat is the sign on this one?
In typical municipalities, that is irrelevant to the election and representation of the people. If I own an apartment complex with 1000 units, I get 0 votes, and each tenant of mine gets 1 vote, even if I'm paying 90% of the revenue in a town.Disney accounts for 80-90% of the taxpayer funds in the district.
While Disney pays the taxes to the district, ya'll keep arguing that they aren't the only beneficiary because they lease land to other people. When I stay in a Disney hotel, I am one of those people, so by that argument, I am the taxpayer, along with all of the business owners leasing land from Disney.When the board says tax payers, they are primarily talking about and avoiding saying “Disney”.
Once again, those services are provided. These are Orange County’s impact fees:
Fire - Provided by the District
Law Enforcement - Provided by the cities
Parks & Recreation - Not Applicable
Schools - Not Applicable
Transportation- Provided by the District
So can I, as a developer, tell people they must support me in all elections and future endeavors as a condition of buying homes from me? No, of course not, that is absurd. The people and businesses in the district, through a secret ballot, should be able to push for what they want without fear of repercussions from Disney. Clearly they can't, everyone knows that.Sorry, I didn't qualify this one as "majority Disney, they're not the only land owner and tax payer within the district, just the overwhelming majority one". Probably need to add "all the other land owners have agreements with Disney that give Disney significant control over what those other land owners can do and that all of them became owners after the district already existed and knew how it worked when entering the agreement". It's a huge pain to type that out every time. I thought we all got to that point a hundred plus pages ago.
When I build a shopping center, the employees who end up working at that shopping center don't work for me, and the whole thing are clearly beneficial to the public and loads of independents businesses, including all my tenants. Why do I have to pay taxes when I build my parking lots, and then not only that, but every year, have to pay property taxes on my facility? How is that fair?The Disney Springs complex itself was developed by Disney for Disney’s benefit, of course. However, the vast majority of employees at that destination do not work for Disney and the vast majority of the revenue doesn’t end up in Disney‘s pockets. And the garage is open to the public at no charge. The garages are clearly beneficial to the public and loads of businesses independent of Disney. The fact that Disney is the developer of the complex doesn’t change that.
Florida's economy would have been helped more by the alternative, which would have been Disney built the same exact parking garages, paid sales tax and impact fees while building them, and then every year paid property taxes on them. That would have allowed all of the county's tax payers to benefit instead of just Disney.If funding parking garages results in more accessibility, free parking, and results in higher attendance which benefits the local businesses who are tenants at Disney springs, which helps the Florida economy, and the economy of the resort district, it was a good use of tax payer dollars (majority of which come from Disney).
Don't worry, they'd be charging Disney by the word, not youHopefully not charging us by the word.
If its so inconsequential, why is Disney going through all this to evade such a small amount of taxes? Also, the problem is the county DOES NOT get to collect additional property taxes for the improved parking facilities, that is something they specifically avoided.The lost sales tax revenue was less about 0.6% of their sales tax revenues for 2016 - and considering the construction stretched across multiple years, you can see how inconsequential it was. Meanwhile, the finished project has had a sustained benefit for the County because they get to collect additional property taxes for the added improvements.
This isn’t a typical municipality. It’s a special district. The standard election method for thousands of special districts across Florida is one-acre/one vote. CFTOD is the only district with taxing powers in excess one one mill that deviates from that sensible governing structure.In typical municipalities, that is irrelevant to the election and representation of the people. If I own an apartment complex with 1000 units, I get 0 votes, and each tenant of mine gets 1 vote, even if I'm paying 90% of the revenue in a town.
If Disney took one vote, and gave every tenant on Disney's property a vote, that would be more fair, but Disney has no interest in doing that.
Replacing the property taxes that Disney paid to RCID with impact fees would be a terrible deal for Orange and Osceola counties given the burden that RCID carried for them. Disney pays HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS PER YEAR to CFTOD. Impact fees don’t come anywhere close to replacing that revenue. Would you rather have your property taxes doubled or pay impact fees? I thought so.I think you aren't understanding what impact fees are for. I am a developer. If I build a community or commercial establishment, I have to pay for all the roads for my residents or tenants to use out of my own funds. I have to pay taxes on all of that, I don't get help from the municipality. ON TOP OF THAT, I have to pay impact fees. So if I build a community, I might put $2 million into roads inside of the community. On top of that, I would have to pay, say, $1.5 million to the county to improve roads OUTSIDE my community, because its understood that the residents in my community will have an IMPACT on other roads as they travel around the area. Under the normal impact fee schedule for Disney's owned hotels and businesses on the property, Disney would have been required to pay SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS to improve roads OFF of Disney's property, because many people who stay on Disney's property will likely want to go other places, like, say, Universal. Disney avoided all that... Universal paid the impact fees on all their hotel rooms.
Disney merely rents the land to the employees. Votes are not always unanimous and are conducted via secret ballots. Furthermore, as tenants the residents have certain rights under Florida law.So can I, as a developer, tell people they must support me in all elections and future endeavors as a condition of buying homes from me? No, of course not, that is absurd. The people and businesses in the district, through a secret ballot, should be able to push for what they want without fear of repercussions from Disney. Clearly they can't, everyone knows that.
Because you, a private entity, own the property your parking lot sits on. If you sell your land to your local government, you won‘t have to worry about property taxes just like tons of other property developers that sell their land to their local governments for one reason or another. Why should Disney pay property taxes on parking garages owned by CFTOD?When I build a shopping center, the employees who end up working at that shopping center don't work for me, and the whole thing are clearly beneficial to the public and loads of independents businesses, including all my tenants. Why do I have to pay taxes when I build my parking lots, and then not only that, but every year, have to pay property taxes on my facility? How is that fair?
If Disney could keep control over land use and replace the CFTOD tax bill with impact fees and property taxes on the Disney Springs parking garages, they would do it in a heartbeat. And again, Disney is hardly the only the developer in Florida not paying property taxes on public facilities that serve their property.If you guys think parking lots, roads, and such should not be taxes, let’s not tax it for ANYBODY in the state of Florida, but only exempting Disney is unfair.
The next time you build a large development, you should. Look into creating a special district. It’s an option available to you. Then you can avoid the impact fees and instead pay your new district extra additional property taxes. You’ll get to maintain the infrastructure yourself and pay the extra district taxes forever as a bonus. Assuming you’re selling any of it, make sure it’s clear you will retain ownership of a majority of the land, so you keep your majority district control. Also, write into all the deeds that you get control over how the buyers make changes. See how those two things impact your sales, costs, and long term requirements. Depending on your business plan, this may be better or worse. It’s available to you as an option.I think you aren't understanding what impact fees are for. I am a developer. If I build a community or commercial establishment, I have to pay for all the roads for my residents or tenants to use out of my own funds. I have to pay taxes on all of that, I don't get help from the municipality. ON TOP OF THAT, I have to pay impact fees. So if I build a community, I might put $2 million into roads inside of the community. On top of that, I would have to pay, say, $1.5 million to the county to improve roads OUTSIDE my community, because its understood that the residents in my community will have an IMPACT on other roads as they travel around the area. Under the normal impact fee schedule for Disney's owned hotels and businesses on the property, Disney would have been required to pay SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS to improve roads OFF of Disney's property, because many people who stay on Disney's property will likely want to go other places, like, say, Universal. Disney avoided all that... Universal paid the impact fees on all their hotel rooms.
So can I, as a developer, tell people they must support me in all elections and future endeavors as a condition of buying homes from me? No, of course not, that is absurd. The people and businesses in the district, through a secret ballot, should be able to push for what they want without fear of repercussions from Disney. Clearly they can't, everyone knows that.
They do in the cities that used to have more say.If Disney took one vote, and gave every tenant on Disney's property a vote, that would be more fair, but Disney has no interest in doing that.
Anyone with sufficient land holdings can petition for the establishment of a community development district which can then build infrastructure such as water management, water supply and roads. The district can even issue bonds to finance such works.I think you aren't understanding what impact fees are for. I am a developer. If I build a community or commercial establishment, I have to pay for all the roads for my residents or tenants to use out of my own funds. I have to pay taxes on all of that, I don't get help from the municipality. ON TOP OF THAT, I have to pay impact fees. So if I build a community, I might put $2 million into roads inside of the community. On top of that, I would have to pay, say, $1.5 million to the county to improve roads OUTSIDE my community, because its understood that the residents in my community will have an IMPACT on other roads as they travel around the area. Under the normal impact fee schedule for Disney's owned hotels and businesses on the property, Disney would have been required to pay SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS to improve roads OFF of Disney's property, because many people who stay on Disney's property will likely want to go other places, like, say, Universal. Disney avoided all that... Universal paid the impact fees on all their hotel rooms.
Disney is not the only one who is exempt.If you guys think parking lots, roads, and such should not be taxes, lets not tax it for ANYBODY in the state of Florida, but only exempting Disney is unfair.
Community development districts created for residential development automatically behind switch to resident participation when they hit certain thresholds.Assuming you’re selling any of it, make sure it’s clear you will retain ownership of a majority of the land, so you keep your majority district control.
Florida's economy would have been helped more by the alternative, which would have been Disney built the same exact parking garages, paid sales tax and impact fees while building them, and then every year paid property taxes on them.
If its so inconsequential, why is Disney going through all this to evade such a small amount of taxes?
If you guys think parking lots, roads, and such should not be taxes, lets not tax it for ANYBODY in the state of Florida, but only exempting Disney is unfair.
Every year Disney helps pay for the Orange County Fire and a rescue service without utilizing the service. They help pay for the roads of Orange County without having road services provided.
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