News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[Chip Chipperson]

In typical municipalities, that is irrelevant to the election and representation of the people. If I own an apartment complex with 1000 units, I get 0 votes, and each tenant of mine gets 1 vote, even if I'm paying 90% of the revenue in a town.

If Disney took one vote, and gave every tenant on Disney's property a vote, that would be more fair, but Disney has no interest in doing that.

Special Districts aren't municipalities and are establishedthe way they are for a reason. Lake Buena Vista and Bay Lake are and they operate under the "1 resident, 1 vote" rule that every other municipality does.

While Disney pays the taxes to the district, ya'll keep arguing that they aren't the only beneficiary because they lease land to other people. When I stay in a Disney hotel, I am one of those people, so by that argument, I am the taxpayer, along with all of the business owners leasing land from Disney.

You aren't leasing a hotel room, you're renting one and there's a big difference between that and a business with a lease in a commercial property.

Its just not in any way fair to Disney to get to make every decision for the district.

Then you don’t want ANY special districts as they're established under FL law. So instead of attacking RCID and Disney, focus on the laws themselves. Singling out 1 Special District for change when it operated as it was allowed to and in the same manner as other special districts is what's not fair.

Florida's economy would have been helped more by the alternative, which would have been Disney built the same exact parking garages, paid sales tax and impact fees while building them, and then every year paid property taxes on them. That would have allowed all of the county's tax payers to benefit instead of just Disney.

No. Like flynnibus, you are assuming that Disney had 2 budgets - 1 for the current setup and 1 for the same setup but paying directly for the garages itself. That was never going to happen. Had the District said no to the garages, the plan would have been scaled back accordingly and the County would have lost out on the additional property tax assessments from the expanded and renovated Disney Springs since the scope of the project would have shrunk.

If its so inconsequential, why is Disney going through all this to evade such a small amount of taxes? Also, the problem is the county DOES NOT get to collect additional property taxes for the improved parking facilities, that is something they specifically avoided.

It's inconsequential for the County, not Disney's Disney Spring renovation budget. Also, this ignores the benefit to the other taxpayers in the District. As I said before, why are you outraged on the County's behalf when the Cou ty was happy with the project?

The same story applies to ALL of the services RCID provided... the energy plants provide power only Disney, but evade taxes that anyone else doing the same would have to, etc...

Wrong again. The energy plant is a public utility and provides its services to all properties within the District. Shades of Green, Hilton, AMC, etc. aren't getting their utilities from some other source.

If you guys think parking lots, roads, and such should not be taxes, lets not tax it for ANYBODY in the state of Florida, but only exempting Disney is unfair.

What public roads or parking garages are taxed? None because government entities are exempt from taxes. That's why Disney pays taxes for its property but RCID doesn't. Same as Orlando, Miami, Tampa, etc.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Then you don’t want ANY special districts as they're established under FL law. So instead of attacking RCID and Disney, focus on the laws themselves.

Not all special districts are organized around land ownership. Some are organized around residency. Some don’t have any direct elections. Some are appointed.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Not all special districts are organized around land ownership. Some are organized around residency. Some don’t have any direct elections. Some are appointed.

True, but unless I'm mistaken there is only 1 appointed Special District board in FL that has the power to levy taxes and it's the CFTOD.

 

[flynnibus]

2023 assessed value of Disney Springs' retail and shopping area - 345Million dollars
2023 assessed value of just the three DS parking garages - 200Million dollars

Any question again why Disney would happily have RCID own the garages? The nearly 31million 7.5M in property taxes a year the arrangement saves Disney verses if they built them themselves. And how 'inconsequential' the amounts the deal costs the county? (psst... it's about 5million a year in property tax alone)

The county sales tax is 0.5%. It takes 1 billion in sales to recoup that $5 million. Something tell me a DS with garages isn't generating an extra billion dollars in sales vs a theoretical "downsized" DS without garages. So yes, there is an impact to the folks besides those inside the district when the district makes grey-area deals.

For a relative comparison.. the TTC parking lot is assessed at about 64 million. The garages are a huge asset and a monster benefit to avoid owning themselves... even tho there isn't a single shared use for them outside of Disney Springs and Disney's casting center.

The existance of RCID does not mandate they develop all transportation related things within the district themselves. Improving the region by making areas developable and serviceable by adding and maintaining infrastructure, drainage, access, etc - That's the district's mission. Not offloading anything "transportation related" under the guise of "that's what RCID is for..".

The TTC lot was essential to enabling the very nexus of WDW that was the Magic Kingdom and RCID didn't pay for that parking facility. There is a line between what develops the property/regional improvements and what is the responsibility of the private businesses. Disney was smart enough to keep that distinction pretty clear most of the time. The DS garages were an example of where they fudged that distinction and really puts a stain on the image of the district serving the development of the region instead of serving as a puppet.

EDIT: I screwed up in my math, incorrectly applying millage as per $100 instead of per $1000 when calculating the ad valorem taxes.

 

[mikejs78]

Something tell me a DS with garages isn't generating an extra billion dollars in sales vs a theoretical "downsized" DS without garages.

Something tells me that a DS with the garages is generating an extra billion dollars in sales vs a downsized DS without garages.

 

[mikejs78]

The nearly 31million in property taxes a year the arrangement saves Disney verses if they built them themselves.

Again, the original plans called for one garage. So if RCID did not build the garages, it's reasonable to assume that maybe Disney would be paying an additional $10M in property taxes if they build that one garage themselves.

Oh, and less parking means a smaller DS, so that means less property tax from DS and less sales tax from merchants. The counties came out ahead in this deal. Everyone wins.

And how 'inconsequential' the amounts the deal costs the county? (psst... it's about 5million a year in property tax alone)

Again, if RCID hasn't built the garages it's likely that a smaller DS would have resulted, which means fewer merchants, lower assessed value, less property tax and less sales tax.

 

[Goofyernmost]

True, but unless I'm mistaken there is only 1 appointed Special District board in FL that has the power to levy taxes and it's the CFTOD.

When is someone going to start understanding that in the case of Special Districts the word used is Taxes. I was on the board of a "special district" in Vermont. Here's the lowdown on what SD taxes really are. In our situation the district, which was also called a municipality had one purpose and one purpose only and that was to provide water for a 187 private home housing development. Each household had a vote for board members.

We levied taxes, they were levied monthly and most of the time they were referred to by the residents as their "water bill" based on usage. Our District was located within the confines of a organized town. The part of the town that did have water availability did not extend to our little area, so we had to create a district that could bill the proper amount needed to maintain the system and pay the help. In other words Tax = Bill for services. P.S. we only taxed/billed people within our small district. No one was "taxed" outside of our jurisdiction as is the same with what Disney's connection was for RCID. The only responsibility RCID ever had was to support the entity that it was created for, not to rule, but was charged with keeping it within specific guidelines which, BTW, were much higher than that of the State of Florida. Having that setup meant that the areas surrounding the business of building and maintaining that specific resort would not burden it's neighbors, to charge the cost of all the needed infrastructure to any of the population outside of that specific property.

 

[flynnibus]

Oh, and less parking means a smaller DS, so that means less property tax from DS and less sales tax from merchants. The counties came out ahead in this deal. Everyone wins.

The math doesn’t work. The value of property tax is nearly 6x of sales tax and the design (and success) of DS was not changing that much.

Additionally the third parking garage was added well after the design of DS was set.

If all these thoughts of its better for ghem due to new growth why didn’t RCID pay for the parking infrastructure when Disney added west side?

Again, if RCID hasn't built the garages it's likely that a smaller DS would have resulted, which means fewer merchants, lower assessed value, less property tax and less sales tax.

Not enough to offset the concession. Look at the one garage map vs what we have… they aren’t radical different in scope. Additionally, grapefruit was added after the fact without any changes at all.

 

[Stripes]

Any question again why Disney would happily have RCID own the garages? The nearly 31million in property taxes a year the arrangement saves Disney verses if they built them themselves.

The total property tax bill for all three garages would be about $5 million, not $31 million.

Disney’s tax bill for Disney Springs is about $7.5 million. Bear in mind, about 50% of the tax bill was to RCID. RCID simply raises and lowers their millage rate to meet their expenses so about half the property taxes could’ve been offset by a decrease in the millage rate. Meaning a property tax increase of $2.5 million per year for the three garages, which is incredibly insignificant.

Orange County Property Appraiser

ocpaweb.ocpafl.org

 

[Figgy1]

Again, the original plans called for one garage. So if RCID did not build the garages, it's reasonable to assume that maybe Disney would be paying an additional $10M in property taxes if they build that one garage themselves.

Oh, and less parking means a smaller DS, so that means less property tax from DS and less sales tax from merchants. The counties came out ahead in this deal. Everyone wins.



Again, if RCID hasn't built the garages it's likely that a smaller DS would have resulted, which means fewer merchants, lower assessed value, less property tax and less sales tax.

Not to mention it wouldn't be the destination for locals to shop and eat that it has become. I'm curious to know if anybody has the sales tax numbers from before the garages compared to now that DS has been fleshed out

 

[sedati]

Wait, I’ve gotten good deals before and negotiated favorable terms. Is this a punishable offense? Should I be worried?

 

[Figgy1]

Wait, I’ve gotten good deals before and negotiated favorable terms. Is this a punishable offense? Should I be worried?

Prepare for a flogging with a wet noodle

 

[mkt]

Any question again why Disney would happily have RCID own the garages?

Cheaper financing through municipal debt.

Not illegal and not uncommon for governments to have municipal parking structures that businesses use.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

The total property tax bill for all three garages would be about $5 million, not $31 million.

Disney’s tax bill for Disney Springs is about $7.5 million. Bear in mind, about 50% of the tax bill was to RCID. RCID simply raises and lowers their millage rate to meet their expenses so about half the property taxes could’ve been offset by a decrease in the millage rate. Meaning a property tax increase of $2.5 million per year for the three garages, which is incredibly insignificant.

Orange County Property Appraiser

ocpaweb.ocpafl.org

Not to mention that the $2.5 million is offset by increased taxes on the rest of the Disney Springs property plus the increased sales tax revenues. So the "loss" would be much less than that, even if there was any loss at all. And considering the County called it out as a positive development in its audit, I highly doubt they lost money on it.

 

[mkt]

An update on the Ziegler drama

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/us/florida-republican-chairman-christian-ziegler.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Gk0.EreR.bPuuXTpc01aE&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

 

[flynnibus]

The total property tax bill for all three garages would be about $5 million, not $31 million.

No, the county's property tax is the $5Mil. The county's website for the garages does not reflect RCID ad valorum tax (which is another roughly 1.3% on the assessed value) because it's NA. I grouped both the ad valorem and county tax together (yes, its slang) because they are two primary taxes based on the property assessment being discussed and the big baseline chunk each gov counts on. We'd really get dragged into the weeds if you tried to line item every additional tax item the county applies to property. Focusing on the big chunks means you chase the meat of the topic. The property tax and district ad valorem tax have been the focus of the conversation and represent the biggest chunk of what people are getting.. or not.

Disney’s tax bill for Disney Springs is about $7.5 million. Bear in mind, about 50% of the tax bill was to RCID

Now you're talking about the total tax bill for just one parcel - which includes multiple county pieces (which we've basically hasn't been highlighted here before either.. but also come into play). So this is a different comparison all together. But also, the property you are highlighting isn't the totality of DS - it's just one portion. The development is broken in multiple parcels, including parcels just for some of the leased sites like T-Rex, etc. Go through and add up all the parcels in the retail area and you'll get to that 300+million property total.

Where I screwed up last night was incorrectly calculating millage as per $100 instead of $1000 (the wonders of late night posting ). So the RCID portion exempted is 2.6Mil, not 26Mil.

 

[flynnibus]

Not illegal and not uncommon for governments to have municipal parking structures that businesses use.

Again, never said otherwise. This a challenge of their POLICY decision - not legality. Concessions of this type are generally reserved for incentives to drive new activity.

DTD was already a thing... RCID didn't feel paying for it's parking infrastructure was a district initiative when Disney expanded it twice before... both times nearly doubling it's size/scope. Yet this time, when Disney was going to redevelop DTD anyway... now it's an district initiative to fund parking needs here? Does not pass the smell test.

 

[Stripes]

No, the county's property tax is the $5Mil. The county's website for the garages does not reflect RCID ad valorum tax (which is another roughly 1.3% on the assessed value) because it's NA.

Yes, it does. The assessed value of the lime garage for example is $53 million. The millage rate charged for Disney’s property is 26.3349, including RCID’s taxes. RCID’s millage rate is about 13 mills (or 1.3% of the assessed property value as you accurately pointed out). Applying that same 26.3349 millage rate to the assessed value of the lime garage you arrive at $1.4 million in property taxes, which is the amount of the tax exemption on the county website. The county website includes the RCID taxes, including the RCID taxes that would be charged to the garages.

Now you're talking about the total tax bill for just one parcel - which includes multiple county pieces (which we've basically hasn't been highlighted here before either.. but also come into play). So this is a different comparison all together. But also, the property you are highlighting isn't the totality of DS - it's just one portion. The development is broken in multiple parcels, including parcels just for some of the leased sites like T-Rex, etc. Go through and add up all the parcels in the retail area and you'll get to that 300+million property total.

I’m aware DS is broken up into many parcels. I didn’t need to add them all up to make my point.

So the RCID portion exempted is 2.6Mil, not 26Mil.

Correct, but the county taxes would’ve also been about 2.5 million, not 5 million.

 

[lazyboy97o]

No, the county's property tax is the $5Mil. The county's website for the garages does not reflect RCID ad valorum tax (which is another roughly 1.3% on the assessed value) because it's NA. I grouped both the ad valorem and county tax together (yes, its slang) because they are two primary taxes based on the property assessment being discussed and the big baseline chunk each gov counts on. We'd really get dragged into the weeds if you tried to line item every additional tax item the county applies to property. Focusing on the big chunks means you chase the meat of the topic. The property tax and district ad valorem tax have been the focus of the conversation and represent the biggest chunk of what people are getting.. or not.


Now you're talking about the total tax bill for just one parcel - which includes multiple county pieces (which we've basically hasn't been highlighted here before either.. but also come into play). So this is a different comparison all together. But also, the property you are highlighting isn't the totality of DS - it's just one portion. The development is broken in multiple parcels, including parcels just for some of the leased sites like T-Rex, etc. Go through and add up all the parcels in the retail area and you'll get to that 300+million property total.

Where I screwed up last night was incorrectly calculating millage as per $100 instead of $1000 (the wonders of late night posting ). So the RCID portion exempted is 2.6Mil, not 26Mil.

The counties are responsible for collecting the district’s ad valorem taxes. It makes no sense that they would include those numbers for taxable properties but not for the non-taxable properties.

The Hollywood Plaza Garage on International Drive (the one with the Disney “art installation”). It has an assessed value of $21.8 million and in 2023 only owed just under $360,000 in property taxes. Using the same values rates and applying them to the garages only yields $2.1 million in taxes owed to the county.

 

[Brian]

Forgive me if this has already been shared, but there's legislative activity which may affect CFTOD, as well as other districts.

Bill would allow local voters to abolish Disney's special district

A new Florida bill would allow local voters to dissolve certain independent special districts, including the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District encompassing Walt Disney World.

flvoicenews.com