Possible Changes coming to the Guest Assistance Cards (GAC)

[unkadug]

...

No it's not - and the MILLIONS of other places where the ADA is enforced and NOT abuse is NOT a problem highlights the fact that it's not simply a lack of documentation that causes the abuse.

...

Honest question...

So how do all these other places stop abuse of the system while still maintaining the spirit of the law?

If Disney cannot even question someone who claims a disability then how do you stop abuse?

 

[Goofyernmost]

The examples cited by @flynnibus are not at all what I'm talking about. The places that don't have an abuse problem are not the places that the violators want to be. Don't be ridiculous, you help people get things off the shelves as an act of human kindness not as a requirement. You don't have to ask a blind person for proof of his problem, it is usually easily noticeable. Don't carry my thoughts beyond common sense. By law, no one can ask for proof of disability and in a place like Disney the abuse is more liable to run rampant then in other places simply because of the nature of a Disney Park. It's that forever discussed unseen disability that is abused. Try not to read more into what I have stated then was put on the post. Some can nitpick the hell out of anything without even trying to understand the reality of the statement.

If you saw the post that I made about my friend with CP that I took to the parks from Vermont you would know what side of the street I am on here. He wouldn't have needed documentation because the condition of his body and the way he looked beyond that more then told the story. Only a fool wouldn't have asked what his problem was, but I don't see any reason why, when it isn't obvious that there is a problem that one shouldn't be asked to confirm what they are telling people. There is no way to stop the abuse without it, unless you have an alternative plan that will always be able to tell who is stretching the truth.

 

[darthspielberg]

From my own experience, it seems like Disney can be selective of who gets a GAC when they want to. My cousin who goes once a year gets one because he was born with a muscle issue which means he can't stand for very long. On the other hand, you have my sister, who brought a doctor's note just in case, as she has Fibromyalgia, and Disney was happy to help us with a wheelchair on a day that it caused her back and hip to be inflamed and painful to walk, but they didn't give her any sort of GAC card, and she had to wait in every line like anyone else (except The Safari, where about halfway through the queue, they let us get a tiny edge up because of the way it's constructed)

So they do have limits as to who can use it for what reasons. Of course there is abuse though, which while a shame, is going to happen in any system.

 

[cslafferty]

Like I said before, I was perfectly ready and willing to show guest relations a note from my daughter's doctor. It in no way discussed the nature or details of her disability. It merely confirmed that she would, in fact need wheelchair assistance. I don't think that would violate any HIPPA laws or infringe on anyone's privacy, and may help discourage anyone who is thinking of taking advantage of a necessary service. My 2 cents as a mother of a disabled person.

 

[flynnibus]

Sorry if this has been said already, but a wheelchair doesn't automatically get you to the front of the line. If the que is wide enough to accommodate the chair, you "stand" in line with everyone else.

Yes, most of the modern parks and attractions have been built to be wheelchair accessible - and Disney actually does try to recommend wheelchairs as a solution for most scenarios. But the people who game the system know the 'golden ticket' is to push for a accomodation that gets you the 'alternate entrance' stamp... which means 'head straight to FP line...'

 

[flynnibus]

Honest question...

So how do all these other places stop abuse of the system while still maintaining the spirit of the law?

Simple... the customers are not motivated to abuse the 'no proof required' issue because there is little to nothing to gain from asking for the assistance/accommodation being offered. The accommodations offered are not attractive and do not offer substantial gain over what the customer would get otherwise.

That's the key point - Disney has created this problem by offering the 'golden ticket' as a catch-all for so many conditions.. instead of offering accommodations catered to the conditions presented.

If Disney cannot even question someone who claims a disability then how do you stop abuse?

You stop dangling an undeniable prize in front of their face.

Imagine if every store you walked into let you cut right to the front of the line if you told them you have a Panic Disorder.. or if your kid had ADD. EVERYONE WOULD BE DOING IT.. everywhere. But the stores don't offer that kind of accommodation because it's unnecessary. But Disney does.. and that's why people lie to get their GAC and it's abused at Disney.

 

[flynnibus]

The places that don't have an abuse problem are not the places that the violators want to be

And you should start trying to think why that is... the law and how businesses are required to act apply EQUALLY to all those locations...

Don't be ridiculous, you help people get things off the shelves as an act of human kindness not as a requirement. You don't have to ask a blind person for proof of his problem, it is usually easily noticeable. Don't carry my thoughts beyond common sense

But you can't enforce laws simply by saying 'use common sense'. You don't like the examples because you are applying your morals to the example. The example is so simple and obvious because it is used to show you how absurd your suggestion is. You may think it may be common sense... but the same could be said about the size of your bathroom.. or how steep the ramp is to your door.. or letting the disabled guy park near the front of your store. But common sense wasn't enough.. people could chose NOT to extend that help. That's why the law exists.

To expand on the store example. You may think it's 'common sense' - but you overlook the real world scenarios. What if requesting that help means taking an employee away from their station? That means potentially more employees.. or impacting other services... something as a business guy you may say 'thats not worth my effort'. Well now with ADA, you are required to make reasonable accommodations for that.

And your dismissal of the Blind guy example shows how you would discriminate against those who do not have easily visible disabilities. You trust the blind guy (why? because he has a cane?) - but you want the guy with Multiple Sclerosis to provide a doctors note.

He wouldn't have needed documentation because the condition of his body and the way he looked beyond that more then told the story. Only a fool wouldn't have asked what his problem was, but I don't see any reason why, when it isn't obvious that there is a problem that one shouldn't be asked to confirm what they are telling people

Because you're discriminating and saying YOU should be able to judge others based on how they appear. Think about how you'd feel if everytime you needed help people were told to JUDGE you and decide if you need to prove it or not. Think about how that would make you feel.

 

[Goofyernmost]

And you should start trying to think why that is... the law and how businesses are required to act apply EQUALLY to all those locations...



But you can't enforce laws simply by saying 'use common sense'. You don't like the examples because you are applying your morals to the example. The example is so simple and obvious because it is used to show you how absurd your suggestion is. You may think it may be common sense... but the same could be said about the size of your bathroom.. or how steep the ramp is to your door.. or letting the disabled guy park near the front of your store. But common sense wasn't enough.. people could chose NOT to extend that help. That's why the law exists.

To expand on the store example. You may think it's 'common sense' - but you overlook the real world scenarios. What if requesting that help means taking an employee away from their station? That means potentially more employees.. or impacting other services... something as a business guy you may say 'thats not worth my effort'. Well now with ADA, you are required to make reasonable accommodations for that.

And your dismissal of the Blind guy example shows how you would discriminate against those who do not have easily visible disabilities. You trust the blind guy (why? because he has a cane?) - but you want the guy with Multiple Sclerosis to provide a doctors note.



Because you're discriminating and saying YOU should be able to judge others based on how they appear. Think about how you'd feel if everytime you needed help people were told to JUDGE you and decide if you need to prove it or not. Think about how that would make you feel.

.

You know, I'm going to just stop this banter because for whatever reason you have you are not reading what I am saying but only what you think I am saying and thinking ahead for a solid comeback. I'm sorry that you were able to take from what I said and turn it into a judgement on my part. I'm trying to eliminate the judgement part not increase it. You for some reason cannot see that. Not using any system to distinguish between legitimate and non-legitimate need is the reason for the abuse. So far you haven't offered any ideas on how you eliminate the abuse. You are only defending the same people that I am..the disabled. It's obvious to me that you are not reading my posts with any form of effort to understand what is being said.

If I were disabled enough to NEED that assistance I would have no problem at all in documenting my need, if for no other reason then to stop the constant judgement of the rest of the "have a magical day" crowd that inhabits Disney Parks.The law can still exist that places provide access for people with disabilities without eliminating their right to be protected from people that abuse and capitalize on someone elses hardships. I cannot say anymore on this subject without repeating and repeating.

 

[luv]

You know, I'm going to just stop this banter because for whatever reason you have you are not reading what I am saying but only what you think I am saying and thinking ahead for a solid comeback. I'm sorry that you were able to take from what I said and turn it into a judgement on my part. I'm trying to eliminate the judgement part not increase it. You for some reason cannot see that. Not using any system to distinguish between legitimate and non-legitimate need is the reason for the abuse. So far you haven't offered any ideas on how you eliminate the abuse. You are only defending the same people that I am..the disabled. It's obvious to me that you are not reading my posts with any form of effort to understand what is being said.

If I were disabled enough to NEED that assistance I would have no problem at all in documenting my need, if for no other reason then to stop the constant judgement of the rest of the "have a magical day" crowd that inhabits Disney Parks.The law can still exist that places provide access for people with disabilities without eliminating their right to be protected from people that abuse and capitalize on someone elses hardships. I cannot say anymore on this subject without repeating and repeating.

The problem isn't about you and what you would or wouldn't want, if you had some condition that made a GAC actually necessary.

The problem is that many people - other people, not you - prefer to keep that stuff private, especially if it is long and involved, gross or will cause people to pity them.

Many of us do not want those people to suffer the humiliation of disclosing their problems. YOU might not feel humiliated, but they would. And they have it hard enough, already.

Plus, a lot of it is long and involved...
Why can't you stand around a lot?

Well, my joints are hurting because I had a surgery to remove my thyroid and some parathyroids were sacrificed and the one in my muscle doesn't seem to be doing the work, so my calcium is for crap. I've been taking a lot of calcium, but I have no vitamin D in my body, because of the cancer and even though I take 10,000+ a day, so I can't absorb enough. Plus, my calcium levels fluctuate... So, my body is breaking down my bones to get the calcium it thinks it needs and when it does, there is a little too much for a while, so my hips and knees hurt. ... The pain comes on fairly suddenly, but other times, they feel okay, so I can stand sometimes and not others, unless I take a pain pill, but I can't take too many of those because I had a liver problem... Anyway, its easier to walk or sit than to stand...and standing in one spot makes the pain so much worse...I'm willing to suffer to do this, but I simply won't be able to carry on if I have to stand all the time. And the walking is good for me because it helps with getting the muscles to pull on my bones, stimulating my bones and they need stimulation because my body is attacking them, so a wheelchair is actually a bad idea...I have to actively fight it, not give in.

Or will disney be hiring doctors to understand it all, so we can can say "Low vitamin D due to cancer and temporary hypercalcemia due to bone resorbtion, following thryroidectomy with sacrificed parathyroids"? Because there is NO WAY the kids working the counter are familiar enough with the tens of thousands of medical problems they might hear to even have any idea how to help people. They have to take people's word for it! They don't know any better!

The CMs can sometimes tell who is lying. It isn't hard. I've witnessed it myself. And they know who is taking advantage, "Well, little Johnny - he doesn't do well when waiting in long lines." But actual medical stuff? They are clueless, as are most of the rest of us.

And people just don't want to tell their long, dumb stories to strangers and watch the stranger become confused, bored, uncomfortable and start to pity them...They just want to go to WDW with their family and heard there was help for them. Multiply the privacy issue by a million when the story is gross or involves something very personal.

That story was the SHORT version...and it wasn't even gross!

It's unfair to make people go through that. Maybe not YOU, but people who don't want to...they have enough crap to deal with.

I think people who have issues that require ADA stuff should receive a card. Issue the card only when the doctor approves it, like they do with handicapped parking. They made sure everyone can't take advantage of the parking, now they have to move this put into the rest of the world.

It is a damn shame that good manners and good sense didn't stop people from taking advantage of the GAC.

 

[Violet]

I thought about that video above during school drop off this morning. The rules at our school are you have to park your car, then walk your child up the door using paths that are laid out. But of course, there are the special moms who think that they can roll up right to the door and let their kids out. This causes hazards for both their own kids and the kids and parents walking.

Anyway, I was thinking about this as I watched yet another mom break the rules this morning, because she is so special I guess. What if everyone broke the rules, the drop off line would be out on the street clogging up traffic?

But then I thought, it's really the school's fault for not having a monitor out there to deter people from doing it.

Back to Disney, it's the same thing. People will always try to break the rules. It's up to the rule makers to put in sufficient deterrents and monitoring for the benefit of everyone else.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I think people who have issues that require ADA stuff should receive a card. Issue the card only when the doctor approves it, like they do with handicapped parking. They made sure everyone can't take advantage of the parking, now they have to move this put into the rest of the world.

It is a damn shame that good manners and good sense didn't stop people from taking advantage of the GAC.

This is exactly my point. Explain it once to someone that will not be judgemental or prone to point and laugh and then never again. No stares from uneducated, self absorbed jerks because they will then know that the person they are seeing has legitimate need. End of rubbernecking and upset eliminated.

It is needed BECAUSE people do not have good manners or good sense. ADA was and is a great program as far as it went but they expected everyone without disabilities to be honest, have manners and good sense. Obviously that is not the case, so expand the program to help prevent abuse and be done with it.

 

[flynnibus]

I'm sorry that you were able to take from what I said and turn it into a judgement on my part. I'm trying to eliminate the judgement part not increase it.

It's because you are not able to see 'beyond yourself' in how your suggestions would play out. That's why the 'what if..' are so preposterous to you.

You think you are saying 'reduce judgement' but your very words say otherwise. You end up in 'well provide documentation where its not obvious..' - that is judging whether you believe it or not.

Second - it's not practical to require documentation for all the things you SHOULD be providing accomodations for. (the woman needing help example)

So put those pieces together and you can see how this tact is D.O.A. Sure it may curb 'walk up abuse' - but does so by reducing the scenarios where people could get help and burdens those the law is designed to help. It puts the needs of 'preventing abuse' ABOVE the benefits to those that need it.

Not using any system to distinguish between legitimate and non-legitimate need is the reason for the abuse.

You keep saying that - but yet you can't answer why this abuse doesn't happen everywhere else.. who also do not require any documentation.

You make the excuse of 'well Disney is different..' - yes they are different, they are different in what they OFFER... and that's the problem. Not that they don't require documentation.

So far you haven't offered any ideas on how you eliminate the abuse. You are only defending the same people that I am..the disabled. It's obvious to me that you are not reading my posts with any form of effort to understand what is being said.

If you are going to try to slam me for 'not reading' - you might try the reading effort yourself before saying I haven't offered any ideas to fix it. See this post

The issue is the gain is too high, and the barrier too low. Combine those things and the horrible society that we are will abuse it. The barrier being low is FIXED and Disney can't change it. So the only thing they can change is the gain.

Oh you can't take the heat? Ok, you can wait over there on those benches we set aside...
Oh you can't stand? There are some chairs over there.. or we'll offer you a wheelchair
Oh you can't climb steps? That's fine, most of our attractions don't have them, and those that do, you can get a return pass to enter the handicap'd entrance
Oh you can't walk? That's fine, we offer wheelchair and ecv rentals right over there...
Oh you can't take crowds? We'll you can get this return pass to come back later.. and no you can't have more than one at a time (an area the new RFID system COULD help with)

When the GAC user 'advantage' is low.. the majority will stop abusing it because there is so little gain (the salt analogy). Sure you can still abuse it.. but that means waiting in line at GR... and you only get benefits that really don't interest you (being stuck in the waiting pen.. or being stuck holding onto a single pass that doesn't allow getting more).

Limiting people to have to wait the same amount of time as others is not penalizing GAC users - it's equalizing them. The problem is Disney is too risk adverse and too CHEAP to do any of the above. They'd rather turn a blind eye to the problem under the guise of customer service rather than actually have to provide legitimate accommodations for so many of these disabilities.

 

[flynnibus]

This is exactly my point. Explain it once to someone that will not be judgemental or prone to point and laugh and then never again. No stares from uneducated, self absorbed jerks because they will then know that the person they are seeing has legitimate need. End of rubbernecking and upset eliminated.

And no one EVER judges those people with handicap placards or license plates when they park and climb right out of their vehicle right???

tell us again how there is no abuse or judging with handicapped parking because a doctor's note was required...

 

[fosse76]

I don't disagree with your issues raised about service animals - but in the spirit of 'root cause' you need to focus on where the fault truly lies. In this case, the fault is in defining and regulating what a true service animal is - that is outside the scope of ADA.

The individual states have the authority under the ADA to define service animal. There is one state, that I just read about, that is either trying to or already has allowed small horses to be used as service animals.

The ADA could be defined to say you must allow the service animal, and must not demand proof they need it.. and still keep you happy with the ADA act. And separately the definition of a service animal is regulated and scrutinized in it's own laws.

Under the ADA, businesses must allow service animals into their establishments. Legally, they can only ask if the animal is in fact a service animal AND what type of service the animal provides. They cannot demand proof that the animal is a service animal nor can they refuse admittance of the animal.

A lot of people don't seem to understand what the ADA is or does. Flynn clearly does, for the most part. The ADA is all about equal access. HOWEVER, it is about REASONABLE access. It also only addresses long-term disabilities that affect major life functions. If you break your leg, you have no rights under the ADA. It's an absolute myth that Disney or any business cannot require proof of a disability...or even disclosure of a disability. HIPPA addresses the disclosure of medical information by any thgird-party entity that has that information...it doesn't stop me from asking "what is wrong with you?" The ADA doesn't prohibit it either. If you get hired for a job, you must disclose your disability in order for them to accomodate you. In turn, the employer can require medical documentation/proof of your disability to determine if the accomodation is legally required and if so what accomodation should be made. There is nothing in the ADA that prohibits businesses from doing the same with customers, since the same actions are involved. Most businesses won't require anything of the sort because they can run into liability problems if a business refuses an accomodation based on the lack of a doctor's note and the customer does in fact have a disability. So Flynn is absolutely correct that Disney is just being lazy with their policy. You can't stand more than ten minutes? "Here's a courtesy wheelchair you can use in our wheelchair-acccessible queue." Oh, you don't want to sit in a wheelchair? "Our only other type of accomodation is to allow you to sit on this bench for the same legth of time as our standby line, and then we'll board you." That is ALL the ADA would require Disney to do.

 

[luv]

The individual states have the authority under the ADA to define service animal. There is one state, that I just read about, that is either trying to or already has allowed small horses to be used as service animals.


Under the ADA, businesses must allow service animals into their establishments. Legally, they can only ask if the animal is in fact a service animal AND what type of service the animal provides. They cannot demand proof that the animal is a service animal nor can they refuse admittance of the animal.

A lot of people don't seem to understand what the ADA is or does. Flynn clearly does, for the most part. The ADA is all about equal access. HOWEVER, it is about REASONABLE access. It also only addresses long-term disabilities that affect major life functions. If you break your leg, you have no rights under the ADA. It's an absolute myth that Disney or any business cannot require proof of a disability...or even disclosure of a disability. HIPPA addresses the disclosure of medical information by any thgird-party entity that has that information...it doesn't stop me from asking "what is wrong with you?" The ADA doesn't prohibit it either. If you get hired for a job, you must disclose your disability in order for them to accomodate you. In turn, the employer can require medical documentation/proof of your disability to determine if the accomodation is legally required and if so what accomodation should be made. There is nothing in the ADA that prohibits businesses from doing the same with customers, since the same actions are involved. Most businesses won't require anything of the sort because they can run into liability problems if a business refuses an accomodation based on the lack of a doctor's note and the customer does in fact have a disability. So Flynn is absolutely correct that Disney is just being lazy with their policy. You can't stand more than ten minutes? "Here's a courtesy wheelchair you can use in our wheelchair-acccessible queue." Oh, you don't want to sit in a wheelchair? "Our only other type of accomodation is to allow you to sit on this bench for the same legth of time as our standby line, and then we'll board you." That is ALL the ADA would require Disney to do.

Disney didn't want to do the bare minimum. They wanted to help all people who truly needed the help.

Unfortunately, liars and people who convinced themselves that they needed help they don't actually need have taken advantage of that. Speaks poorly of those people's characters, but even more poorly of our society as a whole.

It seems that the only way out is to only help those who are disabled enough to get the equivalent of a parking tag. It will stop some people from vacationing at Disney, which is a giant shame.

But they have to do something. The GAC abuse is out of control.

 

[fosse76]

Honest question...

So how do all these other places stop abuse of the system while still maintaining the spirit of the law?

If Disney cannot even question someone who claims a disability then how do you stop abuse?

They can. They choose not to. It can become a liability issue if someone with a disability requests an accomodation and they refuse it because the person didn't provide proof or enough information. The ADA doesn't prevent any inquiries. If it did, how can a business make a reasonable accomodation? Disclosure is necessary, and the ADA explicitly doesn't require a business to be a mind reader.

 

[fosse76]

Because you're discriminating and saying YOU should be able to judge others based on how they appear. Think about how you'd feel if everytime you needed help people were told to JUDGE you and decide if you need to prove it or not. Think about how that would make you feel.

Actually, the ADA does allow observations to be taken into account in determining disabilities and what kind of accomodations would be needed.

 

[muteki]

But they have to do something. The GAC abuse is out of control.

Remove the incentive, stop the abuse. This is one thing FP+ would be great for.

 

[fosse76]

It's unfair to make people go through that. Maybe not YOU, but people who don't want to...they have enough crap to deal with.

I think people who have issues that require ADA stuff should receive a card. Issue the card only when the doctor approves it, like they do with handicapped parking. They made sure everyone can't take advantage of the parking, now they have to move this put into the rest of the world.

"I forgot my card at home."
"I lost my card between the airport and the hotel."
"It was in my wallet and I was mugged and it hasn't been replaced yet."

Now Disney is in a precarious place. If you do have a disability covered by the ADA and aren't accomodated, Disney has just violated the law.

This is why Disney's current system is lazy. It tries to be a one-size-fits-all accommodation to avoid liability. There is no thought process to it.

 

[luv]

Remove the incentive, stop the abuse. This is one thing FP+ would be great for.

There would still be people who couldn't go. Hard to pre-schedule a ride on Space Mountain when you don't know which of your various problems might become an issue on June 2nd, lol. Some people have good days and bad days...days when they feel 100% and days where they lie in bed, doped up and propped with pillows, trying to just lower the amount of pain. Can't know which of those extremes (or somewhere in between) June 2nd will be.

The only good solution is for people who don't absolutely, positively need a GAC in order to make it through the day to not get one...and to only use it when they absolutely must. But that won't happen. They've convinced themselves that pretending to be handicapped is a victimless crime that only gets them a shorter wait. They laugh about it. They think they're cute. They even get OFFENDED when you try to explain why you can't go along with it. Seriously.

These folks who get the GAC thinking they aren't hurting anyone are hurting people. I doubt any of them care enough to read a thread like this, though.

This thread is depressing me, so I'm getting out of it, lol.