Possible Attraction in France pavilion (Epcot) Update - new Attraction Greenlit

[PorterRedkey]

You're not adjusting for inflation:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/disney-animated-box-office-adjusted-2016.924743/

I can't believe Brother Bear grossed more than The Princess and the Frog. PatF is one of my favorite animated movies. It had a great story, great villain, and great music, what's not to like. I wish it would have gotten more love!

 

[danlb_2000]

I think you all need to realize that Disney has to appeal to the general masses and not to some group of fan boys on a Disney forum. They have to build rides that include things most of the public recognizes. Call it the dumbing down of America or whatever but that is the facts.

I would question whether that actually is a 'fact'. I would agree that Disney needs to have some level of IP based content, but I don't agree that it is required to make a great attraction.

 

[MrHappy]

I can't believe Brother Bear grossed more than The Princess and the Frog. PatF is one of my favorite animated movies. It had a great story, great villain, and great music, what's not to like. I wish it would have gotten more love!

Both are terrific in my book. I think PATF had a little more pop to it thanks to having a Princess and New Orleans. But Brother Bear was very strong as well a...just too much Phil Collins on the soundtrack!

In 1982 there was no shortage whatsover of WS country related charismatic movie IP:

France: Aristocats and Cinderella
Germany: Snow
Italy: Pinocchio
Mexico: 3 Caballeros
USA: Dumbo, Lady and the Tramp
UK:. 101 Dalmatians, Pooh, Poppins,. Sword in the Stone. Even Peter Pan and Toad
Etc

Yet, none of these were remotely considered! Because they are completely antithetical to WS. Because they would ruin the theme, in a way that is risible, laughable. Because they would limit what Disney is, would limit what Disney storytelling could do. Disney was showing with EPCOT just how much it could handle, just how broad its artistry was.. And what a magnificent tour de force they delivered!.

I'm not sure the reason they (IPs) weren't considered was because they were laughable ideas. I think the focus of WS on opening day was to portray a country with as much accuracy and ethnicity around a certain aspect(s) of the country. You could argue that the long term strategy was to first establish permission with guests that this IS that country then 20 years later (with Grand Fiesta) to integrate a beloved story and/or character within the setting and it would be "okay" and "feel" right. I'm not arguing either way, but to say Disney can't do something because it never was meant to is not valid to me.

*EDIT: I don't advocate WS becoming toontown 2.0, but we are nowhere near that point, and I think Disney does not want that either as WS is also doubling as Downtown Disney 2.0. It's a fine line that I'd have to believe they're aware of.

 

[PorterRedkey]

Both are terrific in my book. I think PATF had a little more pop to it thanks to having a Princess and New Orleans. But Brother Bear was very strong as well a...just too much Phil F'n Collins on the soundtrack!

BB had a horrible soundtrack and was just no good IMHO.

 

[MrHappy]

BB had a horrible soundtrack and was just no good IMHO.

Haha! That soundtrack
Some of the songs were catchy, but geez, c'mon Phil!

 

[DDLand]

I think you all need to realize that Disney has to appeal to the general masses and not to some group of fan boys on a Disney forum. They have to build rides that include things most of the public recognizes. Call it the dumbing down of America or whatever but that is the facts. I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing. That is just life. If they build something that a narrow group of people on fan forums would like, but the large majority of average people wouldn't, they would lose guests. If they lose guests, they lose money and nothing gets approved. Like it or not, IP driven rides is where the money is.

When was the last IP free attraction created at WDW? It was Everest. Did that reasonate with guests? Yes. Did Soarin reasonate with guests? Yes. Did Kilimanjaro Safaris reasonate with guests? Yes.

Like any art form there exceptions. Mission Space was mixed (especially on these boards where memories of Horizons still linger). Has every movie ever produced been a success? No. The whole industry to this day feels the aftershocks of a misdiagnosis of what went wrong at DCA. It wasn't a lack of Disney characters. It was being under built and a series of design flaws.

This executive team (OLC and Universal are guilty too) have chosen timidity and synergy at the expense of creativity and boundary pushing. Exploitation of well loved IP characters allow attractions essentially devoid of meaning to be built like RSRs. They also allow poor fitting attractions to be forgiven in places like Epcot. They also allow whole lands of amusement park quality rides to be sold for $100+ per person like Toy Story Land.

If IP Free concepts could even get of the ground maybe we could see more content targeting younger demographics, but there's no trust.

Epcot's new strategy is simply timidity and synergy. The Rat is a manifestation of this strategy. It may be a good ride, but it is a misplaced one.

Timidity and synergy.

 

[larryz]

Worldwide or not, using non inflated numbers is pointless when comparing films released 10 years apart (like Ratatouille and Toy Story 1).

And don't forget the higher figures from the 3D releases compared to 2D-only, older movies. Avatar is a perfect example where box office take was artificially inflated by 3D and Imax numbers.

 

[Stryker927]

A lot of Disney's marketing and promotion of Disney World is tugging directly on the heart string's of parents with kid's that are fans of the IP. Sure Soarin' is fantastic but no child understands what it is or why it is there. Creating IP based attractions makes little Johnny and Jenny all excited and want to go to Disney World. It's not about Mickey anymore, it's about the latest IP and creating opportunities to cross market and sell all the different IP's Disney manages. It's their growth strategy and has been for the last 20-30 years. Also why they are one of the largest, if not largest, media conglomerates in the world. It's certainly different than what we perceive Walt's approach to be but it does not mean it's wrong or right. It's not that black and white. This is the current world we live in and the current market conditions for promoting any content or experience. Disney is not unique in this. I am not defending them but I do understand the approach.

 

[The_Jobu]

A lot of Disney's marketing and promotion of Disney World is tugging directly on the heart string's of parents with kid's that are fans of the IP. Sure Soarin' is fantastic but no child understands what it is or why it is there. Creating IP based attractions makes little Johnny and Jenny all excited and want to go to Disney World. It's not about Mickey anymore, it's about the latest IP and creating opportunities to cross market and sell all the different IP's Disney manages. It's their growth strategy and has been for the last 20-30 years. Also why they are one of the largest, if not largest, media conglomerates in the world. It's certainly different than what we perceive Walt's approach to be but it does not mean it's wrong or right. It's not that black and white. This is the current world we live in and the current market conditions for promoting any content or experience. Disney is not unique in this. I am not defending them but I do understand the approach.

We all "understand" the approach, doesn't mean we can't hold them to their original, industry-defining standards. Everyone here is entirely cognizant of how easy it is to appeal to the lowest common denominator, but we expect more, which frankly we should, if they want to continue being the best in the world.

 

[The real rescueranger]

I would question whether that actually is a 'fact'. I would agree that Disney needs to have some level of IP based content, but I don't agree that it is required to make a great attraction.

Oh, I don't necessarily disagree with you. My first trip to EPCOT was summer of 83 as a teenager. It hadn't been open even a full year. I loved the original theme to the park. In fact, I am one of the fan boys that I spoke of. I just realize that the Disney of today has a whole different view than what you or I would have. Can good rides without IP be done? Sure. But today's Disney goes for the easy targets. Need a ride in world showcase? We will shoehorn RAT in France Why, because it is a safe and "quick" fix. It has already been designed and established at another park. There is little risk involved. And unfortunately, that is what Wall Street has turned Disney into, a scared little mouse (Pun intended). I have just made peace with the idea that a new ride based on IP is better than no ride at all.

 

[HMF]

. I have just made peace with the idea that a new ride based on IP is better than no ride at all.

It functioned fine for nearly 35 years with no ride at all.

 

[The real rescueranger]

It functioned fine for nearly 35 years with no ride at all.

That is your opinion. I hardly step foot in world showcase anymore unless it is to eat or go to a concert. Besides how would you know? You weren't wven born then, and you said yourself that you haven't been in 10 years. I go every year. You really don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[jaxonp]

It functioned fine for nearly 35 years with no ride at all.

The park isn't growing and has the capacity to do so. It has more restaurants and shopping than any other park... it's needs more bodies to make more money. How do we tap into a different market that isn't currently spending time at epcot???? I can think of one way.

 

[HMF]

That is your opinion. I hardly step foot in world showcase anymore unless it is to eat or go to a concert. Besides how would you know? You weren't wven born then, and you said yourself that you haven't been in 10 years. I go every year. You really don't have a dog in this fight.

Let's see, I was alive for 26 of those 35 years When I first went to Epcot in 99 there was no ride in France, when I last went in 2008 there was no ride in France. I am not opposed to the idea of a ride in France but I would like it to actually be about France instead of Cartoon Rats.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Future World was destroyed in the Epcotalypse of the 90's. It is painful to now see the same mistake happen all over again to WS. Whiich is slowly being suffocated by marketing driven managers, useless theorists and mediocre designers eager to have their take. All to thunderous applause from an audience nowadays accustomed to a painfully narrow idea of what it means to be 'Disney'.

Yes, that's the rub right there! The "narrow idea of what it means to be Disney." It's why we constantly get commercials centered on hugging a princess; why new lands and attractions come tied to a specific movie IP; and why we see the continued toonification of existing park areas (character buffets, ride overlays, etc.)

EPCOT Center was meant to be different, to not be the saccharine syrup of "fantasy", "magic," and cartoon characters of the Magic Kingdom and Disneyland. It embraced an idea that the world around us, natural and man made, was pretty darn "magical" in it's own right. It was a park that asked why dream about fairytales when you could dream about new technologies that could save lives or improve the environment? At it's heart, EPCOT Center made the case that the future was what we made of it, "...a collective endeavor by people, for people, with the hope for a better world." That's a powerful mission statement right there, and one that is truly timeless. There's ZERO reason it can't work today (if anything, it's a message that's needed more than ever!).

As nice as getting a new ride is, adding Ratatouille to the France pavilion is just more of Disney not having a clue what to do with it's most ambitious and unique park. It's a "safe" play, a cop-out, and worst of all a further dilution of World Showcase and Epcot from the original intent of the park's existence. The only silver lining is that, as rumors currently stand, the existing France pavilion should remain relatively intact.

 

[Daveeeeed]

I'll bet a fair bit of money that I've done more rides on Rat in every year it's been open than you'll do in your lifetime, and no, RAT is disastrous for WS.

It'll no doubt be a resounding success, just like in WDSP.. The ride is cute, the films are great. The movement and effects are sadly too tame - if these can be kicked up one or rather two notches it'll be a thoroughly solid ride, shooting to the top four of EPCOT - Soarin' over the CGI, Test Neon, and Frozen Forever Undercapacity. But furthering WS RAT will not.

What about Spaceship Earth? Even with the 2007 update it still is arguably the superior attraction at Epcot. Although I must admit, the Soarin' update is pretty good when you get past the CGI fountains (the animals & and even the Taj Mahal still work), and while I much prefer the original Test Track... the new one is more inline with Future World's message. And even Frozen isn't bad -- I personally still am not a big fan because it took away Maelstrom, but if you look at the ride itself (ignore the capacity & the location) the choppiness is the worst part, but the ride is still enjoyable and the lift hill and drop make sense story wise. I'm not going to defend Frozen: Ever After though. And while Mission: Space desperately needs an update it is still a pretty good ride.

I think EPCOT's problem is that it has so many bad rides, or rides that are in dire need of updates, but the Tier 1 rides it has are good -- there's just not enough of them.

 

[Dizney Crew]

Any ride additions to WS would be welcome, IP driven or not. It really is a shame when you see how much space is out there is WS and realize its all just restaurants and outdated movies. We need at least 2 more actual rides to be added to the park, 3 would be great but at the very minimum 2. And please no simulator type rides, I don't want to see the Disney parks looking like Universal where every ride is the same.

 

[wdwfan4ver]

It functioned fine for nearly 35 years with no ride at all.

You haven't went to Epcot since 2008, but the last I went was last year. I first went to Epcot in 1991 on summer vacation with me going to be a middle student. Epcot has been favorite park since 1991. I still enjoy the movie in France Pavilion, but there is a big problem.

World Showcase had crowds problems last year during Labor Day Weekend. I tried walking to the UK Pavilion and go to France, but the UK area was completely full of people with no where to go. This was at 5:00 to 6:00 p.m on Saturday after I was done eating at Sunshine Seasons. What I saw was not a fluke. I saw pictures online last October during the food and wine Festival and it looked as crowded as I experienced.

The problem is World showcase needs more stuff to spread the crowds besides fixing Future World. There is no excuse for World Showcase not being as spread out the crowds as it should considering how many expansion plots World Showcase has even if it means using an IP.

IP's can fit in Epcot, but it is how Disney uses it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think you all need to realize that Disney has to appeal to the general masses and not to some group of fan boys on a Disney forum. They have to build rides that include things most of the public recognizes. Call it the dumbing down of America or whatever but that is the facts. I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing. That is just life. If they build something that a narrow group of people on fan forums would like, but the large majority of average people wouldn't, they would lose guests. If they lose guests, they lose money and nothing gets approved. Like it or not, IP driven rides is where the money is.

So Ratatouille did not appeal to the general masses? Guardians of the Galaxy did not appeal to the general masses? Toy Story did not appeal to the general masses?

 

[rioriz]

I have Zero issue with Rat in IPcot. It'll spread the crowds and does fit more In line that Frozen. I'd feel the same as Coco for Mexico. I work daily with kids and I tell you on fact the old vision for Epcot would not work today. No matter if Imagineers spent billions on original rides. I'd love it to be the other way but unless it's a park like Cedar Point, basing a park on all non IP would not work. Maybe a few like Epcot has now but hence why it isn't quite working now.