Please try to be courteous...

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I find this thread hypocritical.

I mean, on the one hand, most preach you cannot judge a seemingly able person as they may have hidden handicaps. On the other hand we assume they don't belong in the handicap stall?

Can you do that?

Those of you who know me know I do. I have a lot of unpopular opinions on "service dogs", scooters, and accommodation in general.

All that said, my vote goes to use the accessible stall last. I know it is roomy. I know the seat is higher and easier to use. But if you have three other stalls, use those first.

Now here is something the women here may not know... Men's rooms, starting in the 90's, started being built with a 4 to 1 ratio of urinals to toilets. Very often, the only stall is the handicapped stall. As a person with severe IBS, this is pretty jacked up. I do get annoyed with people with nervous bladders tying up the stall(s) just to urinate. It happens all the time. I also understand it is totally their right to do so.

Most of the time, accessible stalls are not marked as such. When it comes to men's rooms, this would be impossible, as I have demonstrated above. Society gives a mixed message to men because of this. We have to rely on common sense and courtesy, which we are a little short on nowadays.
The low urinals are also not for children, they are wheelchair accessible urinals. This means there are a lot of smaller men’s rooms that only have wheelchair accessible toilets in them so any sort of assumption of exclusivity makes no sense because it would mean there are no toilets available for men who are not using a wheelchair.
 

mergatroid

Well-Known Member
I find this thread hypocritical.

I mean, on the one hand, most preach you cannot judge a seemingly able person as they may have hidden handicaps. On the other hand we assume they don't belong in the handicap stall?

Can you do that?

Those of you who know me know I do. I have a lot of unpopular opinions on "service dogs", scooters, and accommodation in general.

All that said, my vote goes to use the accessible stall last. I know it is roomy. I know the seat is higher and easier to use. But if you have three other stalls, use those first.

Now here is something the women here may not know... Men's rooms, starting in the 90's, started being built with a 4 to 1 ratio of urinals to toilets. Very often, the only stall is the handicapped stall. As a person with severe IBS, this is pretty jacked up. I do get annoyed with people with nervous bladders tying up the stall(s) just to urinate. It happens all the time. I also understand it is totally in there rights to do so.

Most of the time, accessible stalls are not marked as such. When it comes to men's rooms, this would be impossible, as I have demonstrated above. Society gives a mixed message to men because of this. We have to rely on common sense and courtesy, which we are a little short on nowadays.
You raise some good points. The op did say that they got the impression by the way people apologised when leaving the larger stall or didn't make eye contact, that they perhaps felt guilty so felt they had no reason to use it (PLEASE NOBODY QUOTE ME AGAIN SAYING ANYONE CAN USE THEM, I KNOW). I think they were fairly confident that person could just have easily used a different stall but you're right that it's hard to judge.

The toilet scenario is a strange one really due to the fact that there are no real rules about who can use the larger stalls. It's much different to the jerk parking in a handicapped spot and really it's more an honour system where fair minded folk should be relied upon to do the right thing. Not because they get into trouble or arguments if they don't, but because it just seems the right thing to do. You seem to adhere to this honour system by saying you'd use a normal stall if available over the larger one, acknowledging that you could use it but won't because you want to do the right thing.

When people start arguing over the fact the law doesn't instruct people without medical conditions to not use these stalls, they're not wrong. If they say there's no notices requesting that those not needing the larger stalls use the smaller ones instead if available, they're not wrong there either. I'm pretty sure however that 99.9% if not 100% of the people on this thread are aware that the larger stalls were originally made to help the needs of those who have medical issues and need more space or grab rails? I doubt anyone reading this seriously thinks "Perhaps the builders got their measurements wrong on those stalls" or "Wow, there's a picture of a wheelchair on that door I wonder why they put that on there"? We understand why they're built, it's up to ourselves to decide how or when we're going to use or not use those stalls.

Personally the world I like to live in is one where kindness is there for those who have difficulties in life and as such I'll try to leave those stalls for those who may need them. Not because it's mandated or hinted at, but because it could be me needing it one day and it just seems the right choice. I would never lecture anyone for using the larger stall as I don't know their needs, instead I do my bit to make the world a nicer place and leave them to make their own choice. It's just a common sense and fairness approach as far as I'm concerned and those getting upset about "it not being against the rules to use those stalls" continue using them. You're free to do so and you're free to make that choice regardless of the numbers waiting etc. It just seems a bit silly if we know why they're there arguing as though we don't.
 
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Lilofan

Well-Known Member
This one is easy...

Mens smaller restrooms often have just a single toilet that is almost always occupied (or it seems that way when you need it), and the urinals are too high for little kids.

Not all restrooms of course, but all the smaller ones built since the 90's.
A cool restroom for the little ones is when I visited baby care at DHS. There is a private bathroom stall with the smallest toilet that is barely off the ground for young ones to go relieve themselves.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
When people start arguing over the fact the law doesn't instruct people without medical conditions to not use these stalls, they're not wrong. If they say there's no notices requesting that those not needing the larger stalls use the smaller ones instead if available, they're not wrong there either. I'm pretty sure however that 99.9% if not 100% of the people on this thread are aware that the larger stalls were originally made to help the needs of those who have medical issues and need more space or grab rails? I doubt anyone reading this seriously thinks "Perhaps the builders got their measurements wrong on those stalls" or "Wow, there's a picture of a wheelchair on that door I wonder why they put that on there"? We understand why they're built, it's up to ourselves to decide how or when we're going to use or not use those stalls.
In the US this is not really true. They are built to meet the minimum fixture requirements based on the total occupant load of the building / space.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
Sorry as it's off-topic, but you are so right! When I was minutes away from delivering my eldest child, having taken not so much as a Tylenol, the delivery room nurse asked me to rate my pain on a scale of 1 to 10. All I could think to myself was, "as much as this hurts, it would hurt a lot more if someone was stabbing me in the eyeballs at the same time, and no one is doing that," so even though I felt like I was undergoing seppuku with a butter knife, I tentatively answered, "8." :facepalm:

On the other hand, I'm not sure of a better way for them to phrase the question.
While you ventured off topic, lol, I LOVE all the medicine commercials that list the side effects and they say, “Do not take xxx if you are allergic to the active ingredients”…how do you know if you’re allergic if you’ve never taken it??? I went to a pharmaceutical symposium on my drug…I asked that question of the doctor and drug representatives…crickets…lol
 

John park hopper

Well-Known Member
I regard handicap bathroom stalls as I do handicap parking spaces --if you are not handicapped don't park there usually a hefty fine. if you are not handicapped don't use the handicap stall. I am handicapped but can use a regular stall and generally do.
 

jloucks

Well-Known Member
While you ventured off topic, lol, I LOVE all the medicine commercials that list the side effects and they say, “Do not take xxx if you are allergic to the active ingredients”…how do you know if you’re allergic if you’ve never taken it??? I went to a pharmaceutical symposium on my drug…I asked that question of the doctor and drug representatives…crickets…lol
I don't know if they still do it, but when I took the covid vaccine, they made me sit in quarantine for a while to make sure I didn't just immediately die.

But, yeah, most of the time, they just assume you will survive your first allergic reaction.

My doctor went a little further, and even though people who are allergic to penicillin are not supposed to take this other type of antibiotic, he gave it to me anyway. It turned out fine, no reaction, but sheesh, interesting gamble.

I suspect that due to liability issues, drug companies aren't taking any chances.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I regard handicap bathroom stalls as I do handicap parking spaces --if you are not handicapped don't park there usually a hefty fine. if you are not handicapped don't use the handicap stall. I am handicapped but can use a regular stall and generally do.
So a man who isn’t handicapped just shouldn’t use the bathroom at many restaurants, stores and gas stations?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Member was referring to specific stall, you generalized by advising bathrooms
Yes, because there are many small men’s group restrooms that only have a wheelchair accessible urinal(s) and a wheelchair accessible stall.

In a context like a theme park where you are allowed to have a 2:1 ratio of urinals to stalls, you could even have a six toilet men’s room with only two stalls both of which are accessible.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
This one is easy...

Mens smaller restrooms often have just a single toilet that is almost always occupied (or it seems that way when you need it), and the urinals are too high for little kids.

Not all restrooms of course, but all the smaller ones built since the 90's.
But we are specifically talking about WDW and WDW only. The men's rooms at the parks have more than one stall. And how is waiting for those stalls in the men's room any different than waiting for them in the woman's? Other than there never seems to be a line for the men's room like there are for the woman's. And don't you think that a boy 8 and up are able to reach the urinals? I am talking about all if these school ages boys that seem to be in the woman's restroom now.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
But we are specifically talking about WDW and WDW only.
Yes, but you are expecting people to somehow pickup new social conventions about common things such as bathrooms simply because they are at WDW? That's asking a lot :)

I think everyone can agree it's proper to be courteous to those in need - but this notion of judging those who do use the accessible stalls is a combination of bad assumptions, misinformation, and hypocrisy.
 

mergatroid

Well-Known Member
So a man who isn’t handicapped just shouldn’t use the bathroom at many restaurants, stores and gas stations?
Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that's what people are implying or the poster is saying? Do you really think that when the person you quoted said they don't use handicapped stalls themselves because they leave them for handicapped users that they were referring to restrooms so small they only have one stall? Do you think they want people urinating and defecating on the floor of small restrooms that only have one accessible stall thinking "Can't use those handicapped stalls, I'll just go on the floor as don't want to inconvenience or upset those disabled folks"?

If you're writing a law I can understand but why would you insist on coming up with convoluted examples of restroom examples where there's just one stall for all? The way most people have understood restrooms for decades seems to have just about worked out ok. I've never known anyone refusing to return to a restroom because "When I went there last time there was only one stall and it had of those them there wheelchair symbols on it. I needed a number two but didn't want the F.B.I. after me so I had to defecate in my underwear and finish my meal off like that so I didn't break the law". I've never known anyone express confusion or problems in toilets, if this were the case then simple signs would be placed there explaining the issues a bit like restaurants have notes about how tips work for overseas guests who usually tip based on service standards rather than expectation to make up what the server is charged by the I.R.S.

It's like arguing that it's not illegal to cut somebody's throat because a doctor can perform an emergency tracheostomy on a person to save their life. You wouldn't need to bring that up in a debate about self defence and the use of a knife to defend yourself. I mean would you go to all the trouble of arguing that performing an emergency tracheostomy is ok when explaining that defending yourself is ok but you can't slash the attacker's throat "just to make sure he doesn't punch you again when he's on the floor". It just seems an unnecessary argument especially when this thread has already clarified multiple times that it's not illegal to use a handicapped stall. It's like you're going out of your way to try to encourage people to use handicapped stalls all the time just because they can. The poster you've just quoted has admitted knowing that they can use them but voluntarily tries not to just to make somebody elses life a bit easier and you're bringing up examples of single stall restrooms which they're not even talking about?
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Do you really in your heart of hearts believe that's what people are implying? Do you really think that when the person you quoted said they don't use handicapped stalls themselves because they leave them for handicapped users that they were referring to restrooms so small they only have one stall? Do you think they want people urinating and defecating on the floor of small restrooms that only have one accessible stall thinking "Can't use those handicapped stalls, I'll just go on the floor as don't want to inconvenience or upset those disabled folks"?

If you're writing a law I can understand but why would you insist on coming up with convoluted examples of restroom examples where there's just one stall for all? The way most people have understood restrooms for decades seems to have just about worked out ok. I've never known anyone refusing to return to a restroom because "When I went there last time there was only one stall and it had of those them there wheelchair symbols on it. I needed a number two but didn't want the F.B.I. after me so I had to defecate in my underwear and finish my meal off like that so I didn't break the law". I've never known anyone express confusion or problems in toilets, if this were the case then simple signs would be placed there explaining the issues a bit like restaurants have notes about how tips work for overseas guests who usually tip based on service standards rather than expectation to make up what the server is charged by the I.R.S.

It's like arguing that it's not illegal to cut somebody's throat because a doctor can perform an emergency tracheostomy on a person to save their life. You wouldn't need to bring that up in a debate about self defence and the use of a knife to defend yourself. I mean would you go to all the trouble of arguing that performing an emergency tracheostomy is ok when explaining that defending yourself is ok but you can't slash the attacker's throat "just to make sure he doesn't punch you again when he's on the floor". It just seems an unnecessary argument especially when this thread has already clarified multiple times that it's not illegal to use a handicapped stall. It's like you're going out of your way to try to encourage people to use handicapped stalls all the time just because they can. The poster you've just quoted has admitted knowing that he can use them but voluntarily tries not to just to make somebody elses life a bit easier and you're arguing about the way he sees it?
I’m not pointing out that it is legal to use an accessible stall. Nobody seems to need that clarification.

I’m not coming up with convoluted examples. The examples I have given are incredibly common in the US. If you are going to make a rather definitive ethical statement and judge others by it then it only seems fair to interrogate that position. How many additional stalls create the change from “of course you can use the wheelchair accessible stall” to “you shouldn’t use the wheelchair accessible stall”? People also keep using the term “the handicapped stall” in the context of restrooms with two accessible stalls, so does that mean this ethical rule does or does not apply to the ambulatory accessible stall? How does Florida’s provision of a sink in the wheelchair accessible stall with the intent that it might be used by more than just those with mobility impairments play into this position? Not being able to address these issues and how restrooms are actually designed makes the position out to be more moral grandstanding that a consistent position, perfectly design for rationalizing personal behavior as is required.
 

mergatroid

Well-Known Member
I’m not pointing out that it is legal to use an accessible stall. Nobody seems to need that clarification.

I’m not coming up with convoluted examples. The examples I have given are incredibly common in the US. If you are going to make a rather definitive ethical statement and judge others by it then it only seems fair to interrogate that position. How many additional stalls create the change from “of course you can use the wheelchair accessible stall” to “you shouldn’t use the wheelchair accessible stall”? People also keep using the term “the handicapped stall” in the context of restrooms with two accessible stalls, so does that mean this ethical rule does or does not apply to the ambulatory accessible stall? How does Florida’s provision of a sink in the wheelchair accessible stall with the intent that it might be used by more than just those with mobility impairments play into this position? Not being able to address these issues and how restrooms are actually designed makes the position out to be more moral grandstanding that a consistent position, perfectly design for rationalizing personal behavior as is required.
Do you think they're using the term 'the handicapped stall' because it gets the point across, what term should everyone use in this thread to satisfy yourself as you seem to be confused or unhappy with their terminology? If this was a court case then it would be understandable, but it's not it's a discussion about the use of stalls that are larger. I don't think anyone who's posted on this thread hasn't known which these stalls are, however they're referred to? If we called them x stalls how does that change an individuals decision on the rights or wrongs of using them depending on their own moral values.

You say 'nobody seems to needs that clarification' and then quote Florida provision and query that? We're all talking about the same stall, we all know anyone can use them and are just discussing whether it's better to not use them under certain circumstances or not. It's an interesting debate but it's being made far more complicated than it needs to be. You either use them or you don't, pick a side and discuss it. We've established it's not illegal, how does what you call it change your moral standing on the situation to the level of arguing about people calling it 'the handicapped stall'?
 
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WorldExplorer

Well-Known Member
This thread reminds me that there is one place on Disney property that I always think is awesome because the handicap stall is near the door instead of as far away as possible, and I cannot remember where it is so now the question is going to haunt me.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Do you think they're using the term 'the handicapped stall' because it gets the point across, what term should everyone use in this thread to satisfy yourself as you seem to be confused or unhappy with their terminology? If this was a court case then it would be understandable, but it's not it's a discussion about the use of stalls that are larger. I don't think anyone who's posted on this thread hasn't known which these stalls are, however they're referred to? If we called them x stalls how does that change an individuals decision on the rights or wrongs of using them depending on their own moral values.
In the context of Walt Disney World, many (I’d even go as far to say most given the extent of renovations) of the group restrooms actually have two handicapped stalls. Every discussion of who should be afforded accommodation has some element of who actually qualifies as disabled enough to warrant accommodation. Calling the wheelchair accessible stall “the handicapped stall” is a reflection of the incorrect idea that accessibility is focused around wheelchair users.

You say 'nobody seems to needs that clarification' and then quote Florida provision and query that? We're all talking about the same stall, we all know anyone can use them and are just discussing whether it's better to not use them under certain circumstances or not. It's an interesting debate but it's being made far more complicated than it needs to be. You either use them or you don't, pick a side and discuss it. We've established it's not illegal, how does what you call it change your moral standing on the situation to the level of arguing about people calling it 'the handicapped stall'?
I didn’t bring up Florida’s provision for a sink to discuss legality. I brought it up to highlight a circumstance that I don’t think is really being considered. It’s not a mobility specific accessibility feature. I assume you’d judge a healthy young adult with a young toddler using the wheelchair accessible stall while someone in a wheelchair was waiting if you learned that the changing table was inside the stall. The circumstances of the stall’s design changed your assessment of who should use it. The sink is not just intended for those with mobility issue so it too should change your assessment of who should and should not use the stall.

You don’t think there’s some sort of value judgement at play if there are two things but you only acknowledge the existence of one? If the wheelchair accessible stall is the handicapped stall then what is the ambulatory accessible stall? Part of the moral assessment is clearly rooted in the idea that there is only one stall available when there is in fact often two stalls. And if you’re going to compare toilets to something like parking then why discard the ratio used to assign parking? If only 2% of parking is set aside as accessible why should 10% - 20% of toilets be set aside?

This is absolutely something that should be at least a bit complicated. There are all sorts of variables, many unknown and/or unrecognized, that change the circumstances that you acknowledge change the moral assessment. Given that so many variables are at play I take issue with judging people on things that aren’t really known.
 
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NelleBelle

Well-Known Member
This thread reminds me that there is one place on Disney property that I always think is awesome because the handicap stall is near the door instead of as far away as possible, and I cannot remember where it is so now the question is going to haunt me.
I know what you’re referring to. It can’t remember either. I think there’s more than one?
 

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