They are continuing a species and allowing for education. I’d hope there is value seen in that, one that all can agree on.
I was addressing a specific claim. Please don't move the goalposts yet again.
They are continuing a species and allowing for education. I’d hope there is value seen in that, one that all can agree on.
Ugh, stop it please. I asked for a clarification and I didn't need links to your posts. Use words when someone asks, not links because obviously your words made something not so clear. It obviously wasn't those exact posts you just linked to, but other things you said that made me question it. I do wonder why it's okay to rescue a pet, but not maybe an animal that may or may not be able to survive on their own. My cats survived on their own until they were brought in, but they have a significantly better life now than they did when they were on the streets. Sometimes what they do with animals in zoos are not just because they are extinct, but because they worry about the future. If we are proactive, then we can have these animals not go extinct or not have to be renamed because they do not exist in the wild any longer. You may see that is wrong, but many of us understand watching what has happened to these poor animals overtime that maybe the zoos are trying to get things before anything bad happens. Or they are bringing awareness to an animal that we would not have known about otherwise. It's not just putting them on display for no reason, but to educate.
I'm not a fan of people asking for facts but ignoring what they've been told so my thoughts are not prejudging, it's simply how you have been coming across the entire time. You were told by someone at Animal Kingdom that the birds were clipped. You in your first few comments talked about how it is supposedly a kind way of talking of something else. You Googled, to try and based your facts on this. If someone tells me that a bird is clipped, I will believe them and not try source out info to prove them wrong. I also stated that many bird Keepers understand that clipping can actually be far more stressful than pinioning, so that can be done at times. To me that is a fact because a bird keeper has explained it and why it is done. You looked at that as simply an opinion and we're completely dismissive. That is why I am saying you seem to not to want to hear what other people call facts. You discredited multiple resources that showed what zoo is do that are good, and called it just an opinion. So yes I'm judging you, but I am judging based off of what you have said
You wanted answers from Animal Kingdom, you should have just emailed them first. Coming here and making statements that you cannot 100% confirmed as fact and then going off on how horrible animal kingdom is, just strikes me as wrong.
I really truly hope you have a nice day, but honestly I think I have to be done here.
There is already a movie about an endangered species bird who couldn't fly because he was raised in captivity......it's called Rio.Maybe someone should make a movie about it and call it "Blackbird"...
I'm no longer there, and I wouldn't want to ruin others' experience of the tour by asking such questions in larger company. As I said, I will update the thread if I hear back from anyone at AK.
This doesn’t answer my question, can you list the zoos who currently do this? How many? Is AK included?
With regard to flamingos specifically, I’ve found a list of the few zoos that keep full-winged birds in open-air enclosures (see the bolded sentence below). I am not looking to resume arguing with you, merely providing further information relevant to the question you asked.
“Unfortunately, most current exhibits are open-air enclosures creating the need for the birds to be rendered flightless to prevent escape. Most common methods for restricting flight are pinioning and wing feather clipping. It has been shown that reproduction is severely hindered by pinioning, due to the male’s difficulty in balancing himself during copulation. The recommendation is to keep flamingos full-winged and design new exhibits to accommodate a full-winged flock. Sadly, there are very few exhibits that are designed for full-winged flocks. There are advantages to keeping full winged or pinioned birds in an aviary. These include minimal threat of predation, reduced food stealing by gulls and mallards (Crieighton & Stevens-Woods 1990) and increased fertility (Yo****ake, M. Suuki, T., Yasufuku, M. & Murata, K. 1988). The same basic principles of exhibit construction apply to aviaries. Special care is needed to reduce the risk of injury to flamingos attempting to fly in large aviaries. An exhibit of this type would be very educational, have considerable public appeal, and would increase the likelihood of reproduction within a flock. The zoos that are successfully exhibiting full-winged birds are Sacramento (U.S.), San Antonio (U.S.), Basel (Switzerland), Kobe (Japan) and Xcaret (Mexico).”
Source: http://aviansag.org/Husbandry/Unlocked/Care_Manuals/Flamingo Husbandry Guidelines.pdf
And IMO it would take most zoos years to budget and plan to make that adjustment; many zoos struggle with admissions covering animal care and park operations.....which is why I said earlier that I thought the practice was on its way out (given the 2013 statement), but it will take time. ASAG is signalling their view with their use of words like 'unfortunately' and 'sadly'.The recommendation is to keep flamingos full-winged and design new exhibits to accommodate a full-winged flock. Sadly, there are very few exhibits that are designed for full-winged flocks.
I hope you noticed the two forms of restriction, not just the one. Sorry I didn’t go back and highlight it, but it’s in the beginning of your copy and paste.
I do hope you keep googling the subject of zoos and birds, and all animals.. you’ll see how many rescues there are, how much study and help is being done for each species, how many births are happening... and how zoos should be celebrated for their work.
And IMO it would take most zoos years to budget and plan to make that adjustment; many zoos struggle with admissions covering animal care and park operations.....which is why I said earlier that I thought the practice was on its way out (given the 2013 statement), but it will take time. ASAG is signalling their view with their use of words like 'unfortunately' and 'sadly'.
Again - you are not suggesting anything radical. Your view is in line with the AZA and their experts.
Yes, I read, noticed, and fully understood the content of what I quoted. It doesn’t undermine anything I’ve said in this thread.
Cite your source that says AK is pinioning their birds, and not just clipping them.
My partner and I aren’t fans of zoos (we feel sorry for the animals) but wanted to see Pandora, so we rope-dropped Animal Kingdom yesterday with the intention of bypassing all the live “exhibits” and doing the other attractions and shows. We were having a wonderful time (Flight of Passage was truly amazing), and then we made the mistake of taking a shortcut across Discovery Island, where we happened to catch sight of a vulture just sitting on the grass. We were confused as to why it wouldn’t fly away, and so we asked a cast member. She told us its wings were clipped to prevent flight, adding that it wouldn’t be able to survive if allowed to fly off. As I later found out through the wonders of Google, “clipped” is the euphemistic way of describing what they do to these birds, which is to remove parts of the wings entirely to make them permanently flightless (a procedure called pinioning). I suppose I can understand the justification in the case of endangered species that need to be kept and bred in captivity (which these vultures happened to be), but they do it also for birds that are far more numerous and really don’t need to be kept in zoos. All those flamingoes you see happily wading around? They can’t fly either.
While I realise that this is a zoo problem rather than an Animal Kingdom problem, I really wish Disney would stick to creatures of the animatronic variety rather than participate in these barbaric practices. I can’t see the magic in gawking at a hobbled bird.
Not that my opinion means much, but I would like to point out that even though you and I live in alternate universes in terms of opinions, I am highly impressed in the way that you have managed to be respectful throughout this entire thread. It is clear that you are in the minority, but the level of discourse has remained mostly civil primarily because of your calm and respectful demeanor. Most would have had their feathers severely ruffled by now (no pun intended...or maybe it was)
In all honestly, I wish leaders from both parties in American politics would follow the example you are leading. Seems we would get more accomplished or at the very least could have a more productive dialogue. Kudos
Whatever your opinion is on DAK, it's highly likely that at some point (could be 5 years or it could be 50), Disney will announce that they will phase out all live animals from the park. The reason for this is more and more people are against animals in captivity every year, and eventually Disney will cave to the pressure, similar to SeaWorld ending it's breeding program.
Personally I don't even know what my stance on all of this is. I see arguments for both sides. But if anyone here thinks they will be able to see live animals at DAK forever, they are probably in for a nasty surprise. This isn't my opinion, it's just what will most likely happen at some point due to changing attitudes across the country.
I suspect we're looking at a long-term process rather than anything that will happen in the next few years. And despite my general misgivings about keeping animals in captivity, I do hope that Animal Kingdom and other zoos continue to house and breed threatened and endangered species for as long as necessary.
I don’t foresee public opinion turning against keeping animals in captivity altogether.
I am married to a zoo curator, animal lover, caring person....
I was never really an 'animal' guy until we met....and seeing the way she and her staff, and vets care for these animals at the zoo turned me into an animal guy. People see a bird in a cage and feel sorry for that bird. Its so crazy the amount of work, caring, and love that goes into caring for that bird day after day, year after year. And the tears shed when an animal passes, after living longer than it would in the wild...
but, by all means, lets continue to spay and neuter our pets, remove their claws etc.
So there, my opinion on zoos. (and AK)
Exhibiting animals that aren’t threatened or endangered is difficult to justify in my opinion. Awareness and conservation are important goals, but I think we’d be fooling ourselves if we believed that these are the motivating factors behind Animal Kingdom. Clearly I’m in the minority here, but I look forward to the day when zoos go the way of animal circuses.
Honestly I don't care to debate this. I will say all experts say they have emotions. Cats even smile. To what level though, not really easy (or something I'm willing) to debate. I have a much higher opinion on cats and their emotion than you do. It's more than instinct based on my actions, but you don't have to agree
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