I was addressing a specific claim. Please don't move the goalposts yet again.
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Pinioned birds at Animal Kingdom—UPDATED
- Thread starter LittleBuford
- Start date
I was addressing a specific claim. Please don't move the goalposts yet again.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
Ugh, stop it please. I asked for a clarification and I didn't need links to your posts. Use words when someone asks, not links because obviously your words made something not so clear. It obviously wasn't those exact posts you just linked to, but other things you said that made me question it. I do wonder why it's okay to rescue a pet, but not maybe an animal that may or may not be able to survive on their own. My cats survived on their own until they were brought in, but they have a significantly better life now than they did when they were on the streets. Sometimes what they do with animals in zoos are not just because they are extinct, but because they worry about the future. If we are proactive, then we can have these animals not go extinct or not have to be renamed because they do not exist in the wild any longer. You may see that is wrong, but many of us understand watching what has happened to these poor animals overtime that maybe the zoos are trying to get things before anything bad happens. Or they are bringing awareness to an animal that we would not have known about otherwise. It's not just putting them on display for no reason, but to educate.
I'm not a fan of people asking for facts but ignoring what they've been told so my thoughts are not prejudging, it's simply how you have been coming across the entire time. You were told by someone at Animal Kingdom that the birds were clipped. You in your first few comments talked about how it is supposedly a kind way of talking of something else. You Googled, to try and based your facts on this. If someone tells me that a bird is clipped, I will believe them and not try source out info to prove them wrong. I also stated that many bird Keepers understand that clipping can actually be far more stressful than pinioning, so that can be done at times. To me that is a fact because a bird keeper has explained it and why it is done. You looked at that as simply an opinion and we're completely dismissive. That is why I am saying you seem to not to want to hear what other people call facts. You discredited multiple resources that showed what zoo is do that are good, and called it just an opinion. So yes I'm judging you, but I am judging based off of what you have said
You wanted answers from Animal Kingdom, you should have just emailed them first. Coming here and making statements that you cannot 100% confirmed as fact and then going off on how horrible animal kingdom is, just strikes me as wrong.
I really truly hope you have a nice day, but honestly I think I have to be done here.
The person I spoke with was a regular cast member, not a vet or zookeeper. Yes, it was an assumption on my part to think she was using "clipped" to mean "pinioned", but I have since shown that all the vultures (and most of the other birds) at AKL are indeed pinioned. If I find out that I jumped to conclusions with regard to the particular vulture I saw on Discovery Island, I will update the thread to admit my mistake.
I agree we've said pretty much all we can on the matter.
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SorcererMC
Well-Known Member
There is already a movie about an endangered species bird who couldn't fly because he was raised in captivity......it's called Rio.
Andrew C
You know what's funny?
Next time maybe...they go into great detail about their conservation efforts.. At the end of the trek, you even get to choose between a handful of efforts which they will then make a donation on your behalf. So questions about animal care would not be unusual.
With regard to flamingos specifically, I’ve found a list of the few zoos that keep full-winged birds in open-air enclosures (see the bolded sentence below). I am not looking to resume arguing with you, merely providing further information relevant to the question you asked.
“Unfortunately, most current exhibits are open-air enclosures creating the need for the birds to be rendered flightless to prevent escape. Most common methods for restricting flight are pinioning and wing feather clipping. It has been shown that reproduction is severely hindered by pinioning, due to the male’s difficulty in balancing himself during copulation. The recommendation is to keep flamingos full-winged and design new exhibits to accommodate a full-winged flock. Sadly, there are very few exhibits that are designed for full-winged flocks. There are advantages to keeping full winged or pinioned birds in an aviary. These include minimal threat of predation, reduced food stealing by gulls and mallards (Crieighton & Stevens-Woods 1990) and increased fertility (Yoake, M. Suuki, T., Yasufuku, M. & Murata, K. 1988). The same basic principles of exhibit construction apply to aviaries. Special care is needed to reduce the risk of injury to flamingos attempting to fly in large aviaries. An exhibit of this type would be very educational, have considerable public appeal, and would increase the likelihood of reproduction within a flock. The zoos that are successfully exhibiting full-winged birds are Sacramento (U.S.), San Antonio (U.S.), Basel (Switzerland), Kobe (Japan) and Xcaret (Mexico).”
Source: http://aviansag.org/Husbandry/Unlocked/Care_Manuals/Flamingo Husbandry Guidelines.pdf
21stamps
Well-Known Member
I hope you noticed the two forms of restriction, not just the one. Sorry I didn’t go back and highlight it, but it’s in the beginning of your copy and paste.
I do hope you keep googling the subject of zoos and birds, and all animals.. you’ll see how many rescues there are, how much study and help is being done for each species, how many births are happening... and how zoos should be celebrated for their work.
SorcererMC
Well-Known Member
And IMO it would take most zoos years to budget and plan to make that adjustment; many zoos struggle with admissions covering animal care and park operations.....which is why I said earlier that I thought the practice was on its way out (given the 2013 statement), but it will take time. ASAG is signalling their view with their use of words like 'unfortunately' and 'sadly'.
Again - you are not suggesting anything radical. Your view is in line with the AZA and their experts.
I hope you noticed the two forms of restriction, not just the one. Sorry I didn’t go back and highlight it, but it’s in the beginning of your copy and paste.
I do hope you keep googling the subject of zoos and birds, and all animals.. you’ll see how many rescues there are, how much study and help is being done for each species, how many births are happening... and how zoos should be celebrated for their work.
Yes, I read, noticed, and fully understood the content of what I quoted. It doesn’t undermine anything I’ve said in this thread.
It will indeed take time, and I understand why that’s unavoidable. With all the money that Disney has at its disposal, I do Animal Kingdom is among the first to make the adjustment.
21stamps
Well-Known Member
As long as you realize the difference, and understand that your OP may be flawed in the assumptions made.
Good luck in your research and please do tag me when Disney responds, I’d like to hear their explanation, and the story of that specific bird.
And a final source until I hear back from Animal Kingdom. Below is a passage taken from Melody Malmberg's book Disney's Animal Kingdom, which was published in 1998. It contains an interview with the then curator of birds, Grenville Roles, whose words are both quoted and paraphrased:
"The biggest challenge is keeping birds on the savannah and in view of the guests. They will be pinioned so that they can't fly out of the park, but that limits their natural response to predators — to take to the air."
This book was published by Disney itself and therefore isn't a hit piece. Twenty years have passed since it came out, and attitudes among the park's zookeepers may well have changed over that time. Let's see how they respond to my enquiry.
Here is the quoted passage as viewed through Google Books:
https://books.google.com/books?id=95vpAAAAMAAJ&dq="The+biggest+challenge+is+keeping+birds+on+the+savannah"&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=pinioned
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Oddysey
Well-Known Member
Not that my opinion means much, but I would like to point out that even though you and I live in alternate universes in terms of opinions, I am highly impressed in the way that you have managed to be respectful throughout this entire thread. It is clear that you are in the minority, but the level of discourse has remained mostly civil primarily because of your calm and respectful demeanor. Most would have had their feathers severely ruffled by now (no pun intended...or maybe it was)
In all honestly, I wish leaders from both parties in American politics would follow the example you are leading. Seems we would get more accomplished or at the very least could have a more productive dialogue. Kudos
Not that my opinion means much, but I would like to point out that even though you and I live in alternate universes in terms of opinions, I am highly impressed in the way that you have managed to be respectful throughout this entire thread. It is clear that you are in the minority, but the level of discourse has remained mostly civil primarily because of your calm and respectful demeanor. Most would have had their feathers severely ruffled by now (no pun intended...or maybe it was)
In all honestly, I wish leaders from both parties in American politics would follow the example you are leading. Seems we would get more accomplished or at the very least could have a more productive dialogue. Kudos
Thank you for these very kind words, which mean a lot to me, particularly coming from someone who doesn't share my opinion.
It's a fitting coincidence that your username refers to the very restaurant outside which Epcot's flamingos were located before their transfer to Animal Kingdom.
I suspect we're looking at a long-term process rather than anything that will happen in the next few years. And despite my general misgivings about keeping animals in captivity, I do hope that Animal Kingdom and other zoos continue to house and breed threatened and endangered species for as long as necessary.
Gitson Shiggles
There was me, that is Mickey, and my three droogs
Support for my local municipal zoo is strong. A new tax was just voted in to support the zoo’s conservation efforts (this already on top of generous taxes collected for the zoo). Zoo practices may change, but I don’t foresee public opinion turning against keeping animals in captivity altogether.
Nor do I, at least not anytime soon. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
Kailee
New Member
The reality is that we now live in a world where humans are at the top of the food chain. We have destroyed many of the natural homes of these animals on display with our own advancement and progress. It wasn’t until recent years that people started to realize the damage we were causing to these ecosystems and animals, and since we cannot take back what has already been done, we have to find a way to help fix the problems we have created. (Issues such as deforestation, animal endangerment, etc.) Without the research from large companies and organizations like Disney we wouldn’t have the knowledge necessary to help these millions of animals when their numbers start to drop or diseases become increasingly prevelant in their ranks. Disney Veterinarians, Conservationists, Scientists, and Researchers work hand in hand to develop a better understanding of our worlds ecosystems and how the animals within them work. You can’t do any helpful conservation research on an animatronic elephant...
You also mentioned Nemo the Musical and how in one scene of the performance the fish attempt to escape the tank and how ironic that is due to the fact that Disney has an aquarium in Epcot.
Here I would say quite frankly... do your research.
First of all the saltwater aquarium in Epcot is the second largest in the world home to thousands of unique species under professional veterinary care. Secondly, years ago when the tragic bp oil spill occured Disney constructed a special housing unit for several dozen sea turtles in need of rescue and veterinary care, just one example of their conservation efforts. Lastly one of the main attractions in the aquarium, the two manatees, are wonderful examples of the animal rescue work Disney is doing. One was rescued from a boating accident sporting only a quarter of his tail now (very sad), and the other was orphaned by his mother in the wild meaning it is highly unlikely that either of them would have survived without the care and resources that Walt Disney World offers them.
Lastly I would say that while Cast Members are a great source of information for things like directions and park hours, they are people too and often hand down misinformation to guests either on accident by regurgitating cast member rumors and gossip or by including their own personal opinions and biases in the information they relate to guests. You could ask a different cast member why the vulture wasn’t attempting to escape and get a completely different answer.
One final point. If none of that convinced you that Disney is a great place for animals to live, try attending “UP! A Great Bird Adventure” in Animal Kingdom. All of the birds in the show fly, there’s even a very handsome vulture which plops down onto center stage... seems his wings haven’t been clipped. I guess they missed him.
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Honestly I don't care to debate this. I will say all experts say they have emotions. Cats even smile. To what level though, not really easy (or something I'm willing) to debate. I have a much higher opinion on cats and their emotion than you do. It's more than instinct based on my actions, but you don't have to agree
My cats definitely have emotions. They are also devoted to my husband and I. When either of us is away for a few days they are very unsettled - even though one of us is always there.
Animal rescue workers can tell you of cases where pets (cat or dog) who were given up by their owners - (in this case I would never call these people their "family") stopped eating and completely shut down.