Pinioned birds at Animal Kingdom—UPDATED

[KeeKee]

Said it many times while at DAK, if I were an animal in a zoo, DAK is where I would want to be. We have had parrots as pets for 30+ years now, and you learn after living with them that they are really wild animals and don't belong in cages. That said, they are victims of their own beauty and cleverness. People want them because they are appealing, but they require intensive care and adjustment in lifestyle and just don't belong in cages. We are committed to our pets, but ache for their loss of freedom. Mixed feelings about zoos; there are good ones and bad ones with good and bad practices. It seems that the public is demanding ever increasing humane treatment of animals in captivity in zoos and for food, so that is a good thing. It doesn't seem that the keeping of animals for public display will end, or that it should end really, as long as they are cared for and loved. The whole breeding program required to stock zoos is a completely different kettle of fish, however, and one which I can't solve. This is a complex problem with a complex solution, like most of life, I guess. No bumper sticker solutions.

 

[JohnnyL]

> "adding that it wouldn’t be able to survive if allowed to fly off."

Um...was there any follow-up on this very important point?

Was the bird injured? Was it rescued?

Why wouldn't it be able to survive?

If the bird is indeed injured beyond survivability, it's appropriate to prevent it from leaving.

There is a turtle at SeaWorld (I think) that had it's lower jaw cut off. It would not be able to survive in the wild. It has to be fed by the keepers every day.

 

[LittleBuford]

You also mentioned Nemo the Musical and how in one scene of the performance the fish attempt to escape the tank and how ironic that is due to the fact that Disney has an aquarium in Epcot.
Here I would say quite frankly... do your research.

First of all the saltwater aquarium in Epcot is the second largest in the world home to thousands of unique species under professional veterinary care. Secondly, years ago when the tragic bp oil spill occured Disney constructed a special housing unit for several dozen sea turtles in need of rescue and veterinary care, just one example of their conservation efforts. Lastly one of the main attractions in the aquarium, the two manatees, are wonderful examples of the animal rescue work Disney is doing. One was rescued from a boating accident sporting only a quarter of his tail now (very sad), and the other was orphaned by his mother in the wild meaning it is highly unlikely that either of them would have survived without the care and resources that Walt Disney World offers them.

What I actually said was, "There was a sad irony to watching the Nemo musical (specifically the scenes about escaping the fish tank) in a park full of needlessly captive animals." I was referring to Animal Kingdom itself, and more particularly to those animals in the park that are neither endangered nor threatened--hence "needlessly captive". I have stated multiple times in this thread that I am all for rescue efforts and the sheltering of threatened and endangered species. As for the aquarium at Epcot, perhaps you should look into the history of its original population of dolphins before lecturing me on the need to do research (https://www.dolphinproject.com/blog/disneys-dismal-dolphins-no-make-believe-here/). Their capture and display had nothing whatsoever to do with their welfare. Yes, the aquarium does good work, but guest amusement is the main reason for its existence.

Lastly I would say that while Cast Members are a great source of information for things like directions and park hours, they are people too and often hand down misinformation to guests either on accident by regurgitating cast member rumors and gossip or by including their own personal opinions and biases in the information they relate to guests. You could ask a different cast member why the vulture wasn’t attempting to escape and get a completely different answer.

I specifically asked to speak to someone familiar with the bird's circumstances; no vets or keepers were available, and I had to make do with this particular CM, who was presented as knowing more than her peers. I realise the information she gave me is of limited value, which is why I have sent a written enquiry. As I have said several times now, I will update this thread if and when I receive an answer.

One final point. If none of that convinced you that Disney is a great place for animals to live, try attending “UP! A Great Bird Adventure” in Animal Kingdom. All of the birds in the show fly, there’s even a very handsome vulture which plops down onto center stage... seems his wings haven’t been clipped. I guess they missed him.

One flighted vulture in the bird show (which I had no desire to watch) does not cancel out the fact that many of the vultures (and other birds) at WDW are pinioned. I have already provided links to sources proving that Disney engages in this practice. Here are the relevant posts:

https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/pinioned-birds-at-animal-kingdom.951995/page-3#post-8491753

https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/pinioned-birds-at-animal-kingdom.951995/page-8#post-8492907

 

[21stamps]

> "adding that it wouldn’t be able to survive if allowed to fly off."

Um...was there any follow-up on this very important point?

Was the bird injured? Was it rescued?

Why wouldn't it be able to survive?

If the bird is indeed injured beyond survivability, it's appropriate to prevent it from leaving.

There is a turtle at SeaWorld (I think) that had it's lower jaw cut off. It would not be able to survive in the wild. It has to be fed by the keepers every day.

This is why I specifically asked to be tagged when we hear the story of the bird. I’m glad to see someone else is thinking that there might be a story behind him or her.

My local zoo has a bald eagle who flies at a MLB baseball team’s games. He can’t fly as in normal flight, he can only glide.. because he was a rescue. He is one of many success stories, and bald eagles in general are a great testament to the good that zoos can do.

 

[21stamps]

Their capture and display had nothing whatsoever to do with their welfare. Yes, the aquarium does good work, but guest amusement is the main reason for its existence.

I can’t speak for Epcot specifically, but I know that many dolphins (and other marine life) were once captured for profit only. This has changed over the years, many years ago actually.. at least when we’re talking about the US.

I have said many times that SeaWorld was the catalyst for my love of marine life and diving, SeaWorld accomplished that when I was a young child. I couldn’t be more grateful.

You might look at a dolphin and see captivity and feel sad...someone else might look at a dolphin and be motivated to start volunteering with dolphins, maybe become extremely interested in marine life. The latter is a result of captivity which shouldn’t be underestimated.

 

[LittleBuford]

I can’t speak for Epcot specifically

You could if you read the link I provided. Sometimes, online sources really can tell us more than our own suppositions.

As I said in an earlier post, the capture of the EPCOT dolphins doesn’t reflect how things would be done today. Attitudes can, and thankfully do, change over very short periods (the ’80s weren’t that long ago).

 

[21stamps]

You could if you read the link I provided. Sometimes, online sources really can tell us more than our own suppositions.

As I said in an earlier post, the capture of the EPCOT dolphins doesn’t reflect how things would be done today. Attitudes can, and thankfully do, change over very short periods (the ’80s weren’t that long ago).

No, I don’t need to click on that link.. I saw it quite a long time ago.

You want to pretend that something is currently happening, it’s not. You could find that if you did your research. More often than not, the loudest people complaining about marine life in captivity, are the ones who are looking back on the 80s and before, and not realizing what is happening now..or why, or what it does for marine life and conservation.

 

[LittleBuford]

You want to pretend that something is currently happening, it’s not.

This directly contradicts the very post you quoted, in which I stated, “As I said in an earlier post, the capture of the EPCOT dolphins doesn’t reflect how things would be done today. Attitudes can, and thankfully do, change over very short periods (the ’80s weren’t that long ago).”

 

[21stamps]

This directly contradicts the very post you quoted, in which I stated, “As I said in an earlier post, the capture of the EPCOT dolphins doesn’t reflect how things would be done today. Attitudes can, and thankfully do, change over very short periods (the ’80s weren’t that long ago).”

Your post about Epcot and “research” is a well known article that holds a lot of weight with the Blackfish crowd.. always thrown out as a “No! Look!” But it’s not a spotlight into what is happening today, your attempted rebuttal to another poster was not a rebuttal at all. People have learned from the past.. and yes, the 80s are a long time ago, especially when you look at all of the conservation efforts since then.

 

[21stamps]

If someone wants to know about animals or marine life in captivity, about conservation efforts being done.. Go To The Source.
I suggested a behind the scenes zoo tour, I’ll throw in a behind the scenes tour of a marine facility, or just talking to someone knowledgeable at either place.. AndrewC suggested a tour at Animal Kingdom (I haven’t done that tour, but people seem to rave about it).. these are all good options, and can provide more info, personal info, than google can provide.

 

[Whippet Mom]

My partner and I aren’t fans of zoos (we feel sorry for the animals) but wanted to see Pandora, so we rope-dropped Animal Kingdom yesterday with the intention of bypassing all the live “exhibits” and doing the other attractions and shows. We were having a wonderful time (Flight of Passage was truly amazing), and then we made the mistake of taking a shortcut across Discovery Island, where we happened to catch sight of a vulture just sitting on the grass. We were confused as to why it wouldn’t fly away, and so we asked a cast member. She told us its wings were clipped to prevent flight, adding that it wouldn’t be able to survive if allowed to fly off. As I later found out through the wonders of Google, “clipped” is the euphemistic way of describing what they do to these birds, which is to remove parts of the wings entirely to make them permanently flightless (a procedure called pinioning). I suppose I can understand the justification in the case of endangered species that need to be kept and bred in captivity (which these vultures happened to be), but they do it also for birds that are far more numerous and really don’t need to be kept in zoos. All those flamingoes you see happily wading around? They can’t fly either.

While I realise that this is a zoo problem rather than an Animal Kingdom problem, I really wish Disney would stick to creatures of the animatronic variety rather than participate in these barbaric practices. I can’t see the magic in gawking at a hobbled bird.

Without zoos there would be a lot of extinct animals, We need the zoos & their breeding programs so that many species will survive..

 

[LittleBuford]

Without zoos there would be a lot of extinct animals, We need the zoos & their breeding programs so that many species will survive..

I have addressed this point multiple times throughout the thread. I fully support efforts to house and breed threatened and endangered species.

 

[imsosarah]

This is a fair point. From what I could I find out about these particular birds (https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/b...-with-new-addition-at-disneys-animal-kingdom/), they have been at Animal Kingdom since 1998 and so may well have arrived already pinioned. For what’s it worth, I don’t think clipping a bird’s wings is much better; it’s still a disabling practice. It’s necessary in the case of existing captive populations not kept in enclosed aviaries, but these should just be allowed to die off unless they belong to endangered species.

I’m going to try to contact the people at Animal Kingdom to ask how exactly they keep their bird populations flightless, and I will update this thread when I hear back from them. As I said, I realise it’s a zoo problem rather than an AK problem; I just wish Disney had never got involved in this particular industry to begin with. There was a sad irony to watching the Nemo musical (specifically the scenes about escaping the fish tank) in a park full of needlessly captive animals.

You are also assuming they are taking healthy animals - many have been abandoned or had other issues that would not allow them to survive in the wild not just "endagered"

 

[LittleBuford]

You are also assuming they are taking healthy animals - many have been abandoned or had other issues that would not allow them to survive in the wild not just "endagered"

The vast majority of animals in zoos are the offspring of existing zoo populations. This is something you can easily verify for yourself.

ETA: I've already acknowledged that animals born and bred in captivity cannot survive in the wild. I have never suggested that they should be released.

 

[imsosarah]

The vast majority of animals in zoos are the offspring of existing zoo populations. This is something you can easily verify for yourself.

We are talking about Disney and Animal Kingdom. You can talk to them or visit the center where they save and take care of animals that wouldn't survive in wild for various reasons - not just born in captivity.

 

[LittleBuford]

We are talking about Disney and Animal Kingdom. You can talk to them or visit the center where they save and take care of animals that wouldn't survive in wild for various reasons - not just born in captivity.

Animal Kingdom is no exception. Most of its inhabitants are born into the system. Please see the ETA to my last post--even a healthy animal born into captivity wouldn't be able to survive in the wild unless specially reared to be released.

 

[imsosarah]

Animal Kingdom is no exception. Most of its inhabitants are born into the system. Please see the ETA to my last post--even a healthy animal born into captivity wouldn't be able to survive in the wild unless specially reared to be released.

Good point. We should just let them all die and not take them in and care for them until no others are born in captivity.

Merry Christmas

 

[Andrew C]

The Disney Conservation Fund does a lot of great work. AK is partly an extension of that. The research that is done there on all types of species, even through breeding, is quite significant and gives humans a better understanding of how to coexist with these animals and support their natural habitats. And the awareness they raise through the park is substantial, and it obviously helps to fund some of the conservation efforts. It inspires people. If a few birds need to have their wings clipped to make this all work, I am fine with that. The upside is so much more than any negative. But if animals being held in captivity "needlessly" ruffles your feathers, this probably isn't the park for you. I would see no reason to spend money there if I felt that way.

 

[LittleBuford]

Good point. We should just let them all die and not take them in and care for them until no others are born in captivity.

Merry Christmas

Please don't put absurd words into my mouth. If you have a serious point to make, make it, but don't misrepresent my position.

 

[21stamps]

We are talking about Disney and Animal Kingdom. You can talk to them or visit the center where they save and take care of animals that wouldn't survive in wild for various reasons - not just born in captivity.

I’ll agree, but also add that we can include most zoos in this context as well.