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Pinioned birds at Animal Kingdom—UPDATED

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Please don't put absurd words into my mouth. If you have a serious point to make, make it, but don't misrepresent my position.
In fairness, the point of this thread is absurd.

Actually, maybe that was a bit harsh. The topic itself is one thing, I can understand questioning it.. being told over and over again about conservation and practices, while continuing to pull articles with examples of practices from decades ago.. without having talked to someone knowledgeable at AK to find out about the bird in question.. but continuing to makes assumptions, that part is all a little absurd.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
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If a few birds have their wings clipped to make this all work, I am fine with that. The upside is so much more than any negative.
While I don't agree with you, at least your position is grounded in reality rather than some romantic notion of Animal Kingdom magic. Many who've posted in this thread were horrified by the suggestion that Disney pinioned its birds and never followed up after I proved that it does.

I would see no reason to spend money there if I felt that way.
Alas, there is no way to stop my money going to Animal Kingdom if I spend anything with Disney. As I said earlier, that's my own ethical quandary.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Actually, maybe that was a bit harsh. The topic itself is one thing, I can understand questioning it.. being told over and over again about conservation and practices, while continuing to pull articles with examples of practices from decades ago.. without having talked to someone knowledgeable at AK to find out about the bird in question.. but continuing to makes assumptions, that part is all a little absurd.
While it has grown into something I never intended, the thread is supposed to be about pinioning, which remains a standard practice in zoos today. I am not talking about something that no longer happens.
 

SirWillow

Well-Known Member
Skipped over most of the thread as I can imagine most of what is in it.

I'm always slightly amused at those that "hate zoos, feel sorry for the animals, and think they are a horrible creation." The facts are zoos have been far and away the major source of research into animals and their life. They've also been a major reason that many animals that otherwise would be extinct not only exist but have been rehabilitated and reintroduced into the wild.

Check out the California Condor, scimitar horned oryx, arabian oryx, Przewalki's Horse, bongo, Regent honeyeater, golden lion tamaryn, amur leopard, oh, they also had a huge impact in bringing the manatee back as well as helping to save endangered rhinos, tigers and more in the wild.

That doesn't even begin to touch upon their role in education, exposure, research, and influencing conservation and saving animals throughout the world.

I think those that think zoos are harmful should actually do a bit of research, and maybe spend a day or two with the keepers. It would likely change their impressions as they realize the care, love, concern that goes into taking care of the animals- and yes, keeping them happy, and realize the incredibly valuable role they play in wildlife conservation.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Well, after the first 4 pages were pretty much exactly what I was expecting, as were the comments on the last page (including yours. hehe) So I didn't see any real reason to read the other 6 which I'm quite confident continued the same way... :)
This thread is centred on my concerns about a particular practice--pinioning--a practice that the AZA itself deems undesirable and recommends that zoos move away from. Neither of your comments mentions pinioning; like so many others who've posted here, you instead launch into a general defence of zoos, which is really a topic for another thread.
 
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SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
While it has grown into something I never intended, the thread is supposed to be about pinioning, which remains a standard practice in zoos today. I am not talking about something that no longer happens.
Most of the responses to your initial post are either straw men or patently absurd in their attempts to suggest you have some nefarious intent. I must have had the advantage of personal experience because many years ago, as a chaperone for a field trip, I had the good fortune of touring the zoo with the director. The kids wanted to know why the flamingos didn't just fly away, and he told them in a matter of fact manner that they can't fly because their wings have been clipped, in reference to pinioning. (Alas, they were more concerned about tigers getting out of their exhibits).
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Most of the responses to your initial post are either straw men or patently absurd in their attempts to suggest you have some nefarious intent. I must have had the advantage of personal experience because many years ago, as a chaperone for a field trip, I had the good fortune of touring the zoo with the director. The kids wanted to know why the flamingos didn't just fly away, and he told them in a matter of fact manner that they can't fly because their wings have been clipped, in reference to pinioning. (Alas, they were more concerned about tigers getting out of their exhibits).
Thank you. And as the thread grows longer and fewer people actually read all the posts, the same points are being repeated again and again. I’m grateful for posts like yours that get things back on topic.
 

FCivish3

Member
Good point. We should just let them all die and not take them in and care for them until no others are born in captivity.

Merry Christmas :)
I am reminded of the story about two otters that were saved from an oil spill. They swam through the surface oil until they were covered in toxic goo, so nice people who loved animals took them to a shelter and spent a long time cleaning them, and then they fed and cared for them for a while, until they could get their health back. Then one day, they took the two otters down to the ocean to let them go free. Everyone was so happy to see the otters frolicking in the water and delightfully swimming away. Until a Killer Whale came up and ate them both.

I love animals. As far as I am concerned, animals are people, too. But it is a law of nature that of ALL of the offspring that an animal might produce during their entire life, all of the children - whether it is sea turtles that produce dozens from every single nest, or wild cats, or monkeys, or deer or dolphins - all of those children die, before they can reproduce, except for 1 single one, ON AN AVERAGE. If it were not so, then the animal population would go up and up until they overran their environment, and died of starvation. Nature is harsh, violent and difficult. Animals in our care should always be treated with the utmost kindness and concern. But I'm not going to feel sorry for animals that are given food and shelter and care by us, compared to what they receive in the wild. Even if it is more restricting than running free.
 
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Mr Ferret 88

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Premium Member
While it has grown into something I never intended, the thread is supposed to be about pinioning, which remains a standard practice in zoos today. I am not talking about something that no longer happens.
I messaged my "local" zoo (Durrell wildlife trust), re the flamingos they have and received a suprising response saying they do practice pinioning. Whilst i agree this practice seems wrong to me i will still support the place as a whole as the good work towards conservation and critically endagered animals outweigh the bad. Not saying my view is right ,it's just my view.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I messaged my "local" zoo (Durrell wildlife trust), re the flamingos they have and received a suprising response saying they do practice pinioning. Whilst i agree this practice seems wrong to me i will still support the place as a whole as the good work towards conservation and critically endagered animals outweigh the bad. Not saying my view is right ,it's just my view.
Thanks for your post. I’m sorry to hear that this was the answer you received, though I respect your decision to continue supporting the trust. Let’s hope that they, along with zoos more generally, move away from pinioning in the years ahead. Enquiries like yours, which show that the public is aware of the practice, will no doubt help bring about change.
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
My partner and I aren’t fans of zoos (we feel sorry for the animals) but wanted to see Pandora, so we rope-dropped Animal Kingdom yesterday with the intention of bypassing all the live “exhibits” and doing the other attractions and shows. We were having a wonderful time (Flight of Passage was truly amazing), and then we made the mistake of taking a shortcut across Discovery Island, where we happened to catch sight of a vulture just sitting on the grass. We were confused as to why it wouldn’t fly away, and so we asked a cast member. She told us its wings were clipped to prevent flight, adding that it wouldn’t be able to survive if allowed to fly off. As I later found out through the wonders of Google, “clipped” is the euphemistic way of describing what they do to these birds, which is to remove parts of the wings entirely to make them permanently flightless (a procedure called pinioning). I suppose I can understand the justification in the case of endangered species that need to be kept and bred in captivity (which these vultures happened to be), but they do it also for birds that are far more numerous and really don’t need to be kept in zoos. All those flamingoes you see happily wading around? They can’t fly either.

While I realise that this is a zoo problem rather than an Animal Kingdom problem, I really wish Disney would stick to creatures of the animatronic variety rather than participate in these barbaric practices. I can’t see the magic in gawking at a hobbled bird.
That's not what clipping is. Clipping is cutting the pinfeathers short on their wings to prevent them from flying the feathers grow back completely in 3-4 months, so it has to be done at least 3-4 times a year on the birds.

I do this to my chickens all the time to to keep them from flying over the fences. It's harmless to the birds...no different from getting a haircut or manicure.



Pinioning is completely different....its the surgical removal of the pinion joint (aka the bird's "Fingers") to prevent the flight feathers from developing in the first place. Typically this is done with certain ducks (runners in particular) and swans.

It's more akin to having a cat declawed.... possibly cruel, possibly not, all depending on your own point of view.
 
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