PHOTOS - Building demolition work now in progress at Pleasure Island

[lebeau]

Obviously, it's not as simple as "third parties are bad".

When I'm on vacation, the last thing in the world I want to do is to go to a strip mall. There are strip malls all over the place. I try to avoid going to them in my day-to-day life. So I sure don't want to go to an even more expensive strip mall after a day at the parks.

Don't get me wrong, there's some nice strip malls where we live. The nicest ones are called lifetsyle centers and they have upscale shopping and dining. They may have some free entertainment or a big fancy movie theater. Many of them have been well-designed and are decorated with fancy lights. But they are still basically strip malls.

No matter how nice the decorations or how fancy the lights, if HW has little to offer other than shopping and dining, it is going to have limited appeal. There are already ample opportunities to shop and dine on Disney property. We don't need more of the same.

Third parties (potentially) add to the problem by making the shopping and dining complex more mundane. If the third party brings something unique to the table, great. But if it's just a chain restaraunt from down the road, then the whole place just feels more like our local strip mall. The one I try to avoid at all costs.

I am hoping that Disney is going to surprise us. That HW will have more to offer than just shopping, dining and pretty lights. If that's all it is, we'll go because there's nothing else to do. But we won't make a point of going and we probably won't spend a lot of money.

Disney needs to have some more entertainment offerings for its on-site guests after the parks close. So far, I'm not seeing that in HW. But hopefully it will materialize.

 

[jt04]

Obviously, it's not as simple as "third parties are bad".

When I'm on vacation, the last thing in the world I want to do is to go to a strip mall. There are strip malls all over the place. I try to avoid going to them in my day-to-day life. So I sure don't want to go to an even more expensive strip mall after a day at the parks.

Don't get me wrong, there's some nice strip malls where we live. The nicest ones are called lifetsyle centers and they have upscale shopping and dining. They may have some free entertainment or a big fancy movie theater. Many of them have been well-designed and are decorated with fancy lights. But they are still basically strip malls.

No matter how nice the decorations or how fancy the lights, if HW has little to offer other than shopping and dining, it is going to have limited appeal. There are already ample opportunities to shop and dine on Disney property. We don't need more of the same.

Third parties (potentially) add to the problem by making the shopping and dining complex more mundane. If the third party brings something unique to the table, great. But if it's just a chain restaraunt from down the road, then the whole place just feels more like our local strip mall. The one I try to avoid at all costs.

I am hoping that Disney is going to surprise us. That HW will have more to offer than just shopping, dining and pretty lights. If that's all it is, we'll go because there's nothing else to do. But we won't make a point of going and we probably won't spend a lot of money.

Disney needs to have some more entertainment offerings for its on-site guests after the parks close. So far, I'm not seeing that in HW. But hopefully it will materialize.

Here is my theory. I think Disney will copy or create a unique version of the nightly entertainment offerings recently added to DCA. So then HW will have some offering similar to Electronica or that glow deal. As the evening moves along the island will transform itself to be more adult oriented but in the manner you would see at DCA.

 

[lebeau]

Here is my theory. I think Disney will copy or create a unique version of the nightly entertainment offerings recently added to DCA. So then HW will have some offering similar to Electronica or that glow deal. As the evening moves along the island will transform itself to be more adult oriented but in the manner you would see at DCA.

You're probably right. But I'd like to see something better than that.

From a personal stand-point, I don't really care about the clubs. I don't drink. I sure don't dance. I've got little kids. I'm basically Disney's target demo right now.

Personally, I wouldn't go to clubs or DCA-style parties. But we'd like to do more than just dine and shop.

For people who are interested in a nightlife, I would imagine outdoor DCA-style parties are vastly inferior to indoor clubs with Disney-level theme and designs.

It's still early. Maybe HW will pleasantly surprise me. For now, even though I had no attachment to the clubs, I'm just kind of sad to see PI reduced to this.

 

[jt04]

You're probably right. But I'd like to see something better than that.

From a personal stand-point, I don't really care about the clubs. I don't drink. I sure don't dance. I've got little kids. I'm basically Disney's target demo right now.

Personally, I wouldn't go to clubs or DCA-style parties. But we'd like to do more than just dine and shop.

For people who are interested in a nightlife, I would imagine outdoor DCA-style parties are vastly inferior to indoor clubs with Disney-level theme and designs.

It's still early. Maybe HW will pleasantly surprise me. For now, even though I had no attachment to the clubs, I'm just kind of sad to see PI reduced to this.

I'm convinced Disney has a few reasons for all this. I think they see the advantages of a thriving downtown Orlando and a successful Universal including CW. It is also obvious to me Disney wants out of the modern club scene because it mostly does not reflect well on the company image. They banned certain bands in the past from DTD (HoB) because in the opinion of the company the language went way to far. I can't see how anyone can reasonably fault Disney for protecting its corpoarate image. Disney would be stupid not to.

The cotroversy surrounding PI is 90% based in the closing of the AC. It is also obvious Disney has bigger plans for this franchise in the parks. This is all a process and I think Disney has some long term goals that have been thought through and will ultimately please everyone. My opinion of course.

 

[lebeau]

This is all a process and I think Disney has some long term goals that have been thought through and will ultimately please everyone. My opinion of course.

Based on their handling of PI in particular and DTD as a whole, I am of a different opinion. I think they had a plan. It backfired. Then they spent a couple years scrambling. Now, they clearly have a plan. But it doesn't feel (to me) like the well-thought out longterm strategy you're seeing.

To me, it feels like they are cleaning up a mess they made as cost effectively as possible. Not quite a "bare minimum" effort. But they don't seem to be swinging for the bleachers either.

Obviously, just my $.02. I'd love nothing more than to be pleasantly surprised.

 

[menamechris]

DTD is no longer what you have determined it should be. You are in denial of that and therefore you see it as a failure. Yet the place is doing very well so it is not hard to project that once the changes come it will be doing even better.

It will never again be the place people go to 'party' in that sense but it will be incredibly and increasingly popular. Everything in life does not revolve around drinking. With Pumbas being the exception. :dazzle:

Haha, I have to be honest, I am enjoying this friendly debate, but I have to ask - Is there ANYTHING Disney could do there that you wouldn't be absolutely THRILLED with and stoked about? You may absolutely love DTD, but I don't think the rest of us are wrong because we do not feel that the current state of DTD (and future announced plans) meet the expectations of guests. Like was said before, if you have seen a strip mall, you have pretty much experienced DTD.

 

[jakeman]

Um yeah, that is why they are building Hyperion Wharf. Perhaps you have not heard of it.

I thought that is what we are talking about? I'm confused as to the point of your post.

Obviously, it's not as simple as "third parties are bad".

When I'm on vacation, the last thing in the world I want to do is to go to a strip mall. There are strip malls all over the place. I try to avoid going to them in my day-to-day life. So I sure don't want to go to an even more expensive strip mall after a day at the parks.

Don't get me wrong, there's some nice strip malls where we live. The nicest ones are called lifetsyle centers and they have upscale shopping and dining. They may have some free entertainment or a big fancy movie theater. Many of them have been well-designed and are decorated with fancy lights. But they are still basically strip malls.

No matter how nice the decorations or how fancy the lights, if HW has little to offer other than shopping and dining, it is going to have limited appeal. There are already ample opportunities to shop and dine on Disney property. We don't need more of the same.

Third parties (potentially) add to the problem by making the shopping and dining complex more mundane. If the third party brings something unique to the table, great. But if it's just a chain restaraunt from down the road, then the whole place just feels more like our local strip mall. The one I try to avoid at all costs.

I am hoping that Disney is going to surprise us. That HW will have more to offer than just shopping, dining and pretty lights. If that's all it is, we'll go because there's nothing else to do. But we won't make a point of going and we probably won't spend a lot of money.

Disney needs to have some more entertainment offerings for its on-site guests after the parks close. So far, I'm not seeing that in HW. But hopefully it will materialize.

However, when you boil Citywalk down to it's core element's it is nothing more than a strip mall as well.

If you seek more than shopping and dining, but don't like clubs, what could Disney offer at HW that would draw you there and make you spend money?

If third parties are okay as long as they are unique, whose opinion is that? What maybe new to you may be common place to me.

 

[lebeau]

However, when you boil Citywalk down to it's core element's it is nothing more than a strip mall as well.

If you seek more than shopping and dining, but don't like clubs, what could Disney offer at HW that would draw you there and make you spend money?

If third parties are okay as long as they are unique, whose opinion is that? What maybe new to you may be common place to me.

I think the clubs at Citiwalk make it livelier than a strip mall. To me, a strip mall is shops, dining, some fairly minimal entertainment in that order. DTD fits that description to me. Citiwalk doesn't due to the clubs.

Cirque and Disney Quest are the kinds of things that elevate DTD above being a really nice strip mall/lifestyle center. Unfortunately, Disney Quest is hopeless stuck in the 90s. It's barely more than Dave and Buster's with an admission charge these days. And Cirque is too exepnsive to make a difference on most visits.

But I would like to see more of these kinds of offerings. More shows (like the comedy club or AC). More entertainment offerings. Alcohol can be a component, but it doesn't have to be. For my own selfish purposes, I'd prefer entertainment venues aimed more at kids than adults. But there should be something for everyone.

(To clarify, that doesn't mean everything should be for everyone. There should be some adult-oriented entertainment that is not aimed at kids.)

It's a tough balancing act and I'll be the first to say I don't have the answers. Hopefully, Disney can come up with some. All I know is a complex that is primarily shopping and dining doesn't hold a lot of appeal to me. And I'm the target demo for that sort of thing.

As for third parties, it's true that what may be exotic for me may be mundane in your neck of the woods. And vice versa.

But some things are relatively rare if not unique. For example, T-Rex is going to be a lot more exotic to most people than a Cheesecake Factory. If you have a wide enough variety of third party offerings that are unique or relatively rare, then it should feel more exotic than the local strip mall for most guests.

Having said that, if it's 95% dining and shops, it's going to feel like a strip mall no matter how exotic the dining and shops may be.

Live entertainment helps. But it's not uncommon to see bands or street performers entertaining the crowds at most nice lifestyle centers around here. I think DTD should offer something more.

 

[71jason]

You know... despite the popular negative opinion on here.. DTD is packed on a nightly basis... with the 'offseason' exceptions, of course..

Sorry, but as someone who spends at least a couple nights a week there, this is just too broad a statement. The Marketplace always has a decent crowd--of course, the smallish shops and walkways help make it feel more crowded than it is. The small parking lot does the same. T-Rex always seems to have a line, and while RFC has apparently had some of its customers cannabalized, it seems to do ok. And as I mentioned, AMC does quite well, as does Wetzels.

But none of the "grown-up" restaurants seem to be performing up to snuff. Outside maybe 8 - 10 weeks out of the year, you can walk up to Raglan or Paradiso at 7:00 on a Friday evening and be seated immediately.

And you'll see crowds of people walking Hill Street, but very few of them holding bags or drinks. It's all tourists stuck on property who didn't want to buy a park ticket for their travel day--or who have nothing else to do when the park they visited that day closed at 5 or 7--and locals looking for an outdoor place to browse. (Which is why the two ice cream places do so well, ice cream fits in well with that model.)

None of this changes the fact that a row of empty buildings are bad show, and TDO has virtually nothing for the 1 in 6 guests who visit without kids, or the ones who brought a sitter and want a night out.

 

[menamechris]

Sorry, but as someone who spends at least a couple nights a week there, this is just too broad a statement. The Marketplace always has a decent crowd--of course, the smallish shops and walkways help make it feel more crowded than it is. The small parking lot does the same. T-Rex always seems to have a line, and while RFC has apparently had some of its customers cannabalized, it seems to do ok. And as I mentioned, AMC does quite well, as does Wetzels.

But none of the "grown-up" restaurants seem to be performing up to snuff. Outside maybe 8 - 10 weeks out of the year, you can walk up to Raglan or Paradiso at 7:00 on a Friday evening and be seated immediately.

And you'll see crowds of people walking Hill Street, but very few of them holding bags or drinks. It's all tourists stuck on property who didn't want to buy a park ticket for their travel day--or who have nothing else to do when the park they visited that day closed at 5 or 7--and locals looking for an outdoor place to browse. (Which is why the two ice cream places do so well, ice cream fits in well with that model.)

None of this changes the fact that a row of empty buildings are bad show, and TDO has virtually nothing for the 1 in 6 guests who visit without kids, or the ones who brought a sitter and want a night out.

I agree with your comments wholeheartedly! I think a lot of people who are only at Disney during their vacation week may be getting a false impression of the real situation at DTD. If you go one or two random nights a year during your vacation to DTD (especially during a busy season), you may think "Wow! This place is busy". It's those of us who live nearby and frequent these places that see how sad the situation really is. And I have to admit with you comment on the restaurants - DTD is the only place you can go on property, and know that no reservation is necessary - even at Planet Hollywood, which was DEFINETLY not the case years ago....

 

[WDW_Princess]

I guess I am alone in my opinion of PI. I have been numerous times since I turned 18. Maybe it was the time of year, but the dance clubs were all but empty. The "party in the street" was lonely confetti on the ground. It has always felt like a ghost town to me. I am glad they will fill it with something even if it is just more shopping.

 

[Alektronic]

Sorry, but as someone who spends at least a couple nights a week there, this is just too broad a statement. The Marketplace always has a decent crowd--of course, the smallish shops and walkways help make it feel more crowded than it is. The small parking lot does the same. T-Rex always seems to have a line, and while RFC has apparently had some of its customers cannabalized, it seems to do ok. And as I mentioned, AMC does quite well, as does Wetzels.

But none of the "grown-up" restaurants seem to be performing up to snuff. Outside maybe 8 - 10 weeks out of the year, you can walk up to Raglan or Paradiso at 7:00 on a Friday evening and be seated immediately.

And you'll see crowds of people walking Hill Street, but very few of them holding bags or drinks. It's all tourists stuck on property who didn't want to buy a park ticket for their travel day--or who have nothing else to do when the park they visited that day closed at 5 or 7--and locals looking for an outdoor place to browse. (Which is why the two ice cream places do so well, ice cream fits in well with that model.)

None of this changes the fact that a row of empty buildings are bad show, and TDO has virtually nothing for the 1 in 6 guests who visit without kids, or the ones who brought a sitter and want a night out.

I would have to agree also, the parking lots maybe crowded and a lot of people walking around but not many people spending a lot of money.

The World of Disney is crowded of people just browsing but when you go up to a register they are empty with no one in line and CM's just standing around.

I think TDO just likes closing things with no replacement just to save money. The 20K plot of land was empty for almost 20 years until they finally put something there.

 

[ddbowdoin]

I wish I had the chance of experiencing it... when it was alive and well I was under 21 =(

 

[tirian]

I wish I had the chance of experiencing it... when it was alive and well I was under 21 =(

Yep, me too. Growing up, I felt a little rebellious reading the "PI" portion of the guidebooks and imagining what the place was really like. That was in the district's heyday. When I finally did go, it was full of awkward people who wouldn't be allowed inside any decent club across America; and that was on a Friday night. (This was when only Thursdays were free for CMs.) The AC was great if you could get the know-it-all locals to shut up and stop quoting the lines.

Disney finally opened PI to CMs every weekday for a reason: nobody else was there.

 

[zulemara]

I agree with you that DTD was more popular during the PI days of the 90s. But as you know and I know, all of the club areas have dropped off in Orlando. Church Street Station was also a thriving club scene in the 90s, and now it is completely dead. One has to assume that the same trend followed at Pleasure Island, with profits dropping off, and people loitering while spending the least amount of money possible. Whatever locals did enjoy DTD for Pleasure Island, are not returning weekend after weekend for what is there now....

CSS died BECAUSE of PI!!! PI was created to copy it, make it better, and keep guests on property because they were being bussed to CSS and Disney was out the revenue

 

[zulemara]

Yep, me too. Growing up, I felt a little rebellious reading the "PI" portion of the guidebooks and imagining what the place was really like. That was in the district's heyday. When I finally did go, it was full of awkward people who wouldn't be allowed inside any decent club across America; and that was on a Friday night. (This was when only Thursdays were free for CMs.) The AC was great if you could get the know-it-all locals to shut up and stop quoting the lines.

Disney finally opened PI to CMs every weekday for a reason: nobody else was there.

That's what happens when you don't promote and squeeze the goose's neck till it can't breathe! They could have done things to make PI more upscale, VIP areas/access, a dress code, heck they used to have valet and got rid of it. However, I never saw ppl you speak of in 8-trax of MDP. In fact, I worked the door at 8-trax a LOT in 2004/2005 and the club was rarely slow.

 

[backinaction]

define rarely

 

[tirian]

That's what happens when you don't promote and squeeze the goose's neck till it can't breathe! They could have done things to make PI more upscale, VIP areas/access, a dress code, heck they used to have valet and got rid of it. However, I never saw ppl you speak of in 8-trax of MDP. In fact, I worked the door at 8-trax a LOT in 2004/2005 and the club was rarely slow.

That would make sense, because CMs didn't get free weekday admission until 2007. To my understanding, parts of PI remained profitable to the end, but the island wasn't overall successful at the time they closed it. I won't pretend to have numbers; my opinion just comes from conversations with managers there. The fact is, we'll probably never know exactly why Disney chose to let the place stagnate and collapse; they probably aren't even sure.

 

[menamechris]

CSS died BECAUSE of PI!!! PI was created to copy it, make it better, and keep guests on property because they were being bussed to CSS and Disney was out the revenue

I am sure that was part of it. CSS still had a very healthy 10 or so years after PI opened, and then PI ended up landing a similar demise just a couple years after CSS. The club scene has just changed. I think people are more inclined to stay home and hang out on-line than going out and actually having to meet people, to be honest.

 

[zulemara]

I am sure that was part of it. CSS still had a very healthy 10 or so years after PI opened, and then PI ended up landing a similar demise just a couple years after CSS. The club scene has just changed. I think people are more inclined to stay home and hang out on-line than going out and actually having to meet people, to be honest.

I disagree entirely. That's the corporate line that Disney told ppl to spout. People are still out in clubs, citywalk is packed on the weekends, HOB is packed on Sundays, and that's in the off season. visit savepleasureisland.blogspot.com and you'll see many examples of people who went out and didn't want to stay in.