PERMITS

[Old Mouseketeer]

You're right, I have no inside knowledge. And clearly you do, I'll bow down to you and your greatness, no joke. But inside knowledge or not, a lot of these decisions, I'm guessing now, are happening at a higher level than the people you know. So they may or may not be in the line of decision makers to know what the future holds for the resort.

So my point is still the same, unless they plan to finally say no more expansion at DLR and completely freeze everything, which I doubt. So that means at some point there will have to be further restacking of things and moving more things offsite, or else some classics will start being on the chopping block. And I know how we all feel when talking about removal and replacement of classics. So something will give at some point in the future, how long in the future that will be remains to be seen. In a perfect world they would have unlimited space for everything, but that is just not possible. And in the theme park business, guest facing facilities comes first, CMs and BOH facilities come second. So CMs will get the short end of the stick in this game of shifting facilities in favor of guest facing facilities.

I don't disagree that some things will have to change, including things many of us treasure. But some of the BOH facilities we're talking about are necessary to support live entertainment in the parks. Much of this is centralized in the Entertainment Building they are moving for MMRR and a smaller presence where we're talking DCA side. They're getting to the point where there's nothing more they can cut without cutting entertainment offerings.

As you say, some of the decisions are being made much higher up the food chain and I already know of instances where decisions have had to be reversed or modified because they went too far. And I'm not saying they won't move some more things off-property--in fact I believe they absolutely will. It's just that they're running out of things to move. I believe they've moved around 80-90% of what is possible to move.

There is still room for expansion. The SE corner of DCA behind TSMM, Goofy's Flying School, and Backlot. On Disneyland side, there's Tomorrowland, including the old Motorboats area, FL Theater, the parade building behind SW:GE (which could conceivably relocate next door to Building 100). After that, what do you cut? Storybookland/Casey Jr.? Jungle Cruise? Pooh? Realistically, however, I think there's land to occupy them for 20 years. However, it would help if they would come up with A FREAKING MASTER PLAN!!!

 

[Disney Irish]

here is the same map with the area representing the approximate 2 acres of the Epcot show building.

for comparison the Flicks fun Fair area within the large brick wall that it sat in was 1.67 acres but at a different shape.

A 2 acre building can fit against the further southern point of the land and still allow enough space behind it for a backstage road. The balance of the land could be used for an extended queue and preshow area. i guess the question would be how the long launch area would be positioned. Those backstage buildings wouldn't even have to be moved if they didn't want to. The show building can be turned vertically against them
.View attachment 367337

We'll just have to wait and see what they do. Maybe they have enough room, maybe the don't. Its just a big waiting game now. And hopefully they'll provide more insight into things at D23.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don't disagree that some things will have to change, including things many of us treasure. But some of the BOH facilities we're talking about are necessary to support live entertainment in the parks. Much of this is centralized in the Entertainment Building they are moving for MMRR and a smaller presence where we're talking DCA side. They're getting to the point where there's nothing more they can cut without cutting entertainment offerings.

As you say, some of the decisions are being made much higher up the food chain and I already know of instances where decisions have had to be reversed or modified because they went too far. And I'm not saying they won't move some more things off-property--in fact I believe they absolutely will. It's just that they're running out of things to move. I believe they've moved around 80-90% of what is possible to move.

There is still room for expansion. The SE corner of DCA behind TSMM, Goofy's Flying School, and Backlot. On Disneyland side, there's Tomorrowland, including the old Motorboats area, FL Theater, the parade building behind SW:GE (which could conceivably relocate next door to Building 100). After that, what do you cut? Storybookland/Casey Jr.? Jungle Cruise? Pooh? Realistically, however, I think there's land to occupy them for 20 years. However, it would help if they would come up with A FREAKING MASTER PLAN!!!

This part I will agree with, a Master Plan would be nice.

The one thing I think they should do is more stacking, like I was suggesting. Building an attraction at ground level with BoH below ground level. Basically making the DLR version of the WDW Utilidors. Why they didn't do that when they built DCA I'll never understand.

 

[RescueTheDay]

Wasn’t the rumor that the Avenger coaster was sent back to the drawing board due to capacity? If that’s the case, why would we think it would need to be as large as the GOTG building?

 

[Disney Irish]

Wasn’t the rumor that the Avenger coaster was sent back to the drawing board due to capacity? If that’s the case, why would we think it would need to be as large as the GOTG building?

Yes, and while there hasn't been much in the way of rumblings recently, the assumption has been that Avenger would end up just being a clone of GotG. And if so would need a building fairly large.

For all we know at this point maybe everything got scraped and there is no Phase 2. Except they appear to be moving forward as if there is a Phase 2 going behind MB. So who knows. Maybe I'm reading the tea leaves wrong on this one, or maybe I'm reading them right. There are a lot of moving parts going on right now that I don't think anyone on these forums knows for sure.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

This part I will agree with, a Master Plan would be nice.

The one thing I think they should do is more stacking, like I was suggesting. Building an attraction at ground level with BoH below ground level. Basically making the DLR version of the WDW Utilidors. Why they didn't do that when they built DCA I'll never understand.

I don't understand it either. But Pressler was a dolt.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don't understand it either. But Pressler was a dolt.

The only thing I can think of is fear of and permitting and cost of retrofitting for earthquakes. But as I understand it the Subs show building and basement section in that area could double as a military grade fallout shelter. So who knows, much is the shortsightedness of the 90s TDA.

But its one thing that could have solved all this, a BoH city under DCA where the entire DLR footprint could be used for expansion. Ah the possibilities.

 

[Darkbeer1]

However, it would help if they would come up with A FREAKING MASTER PLAN!!!

I guess I can step in here. The priority to expansion is dealings with Anaheim, and nearby cities.

I can tell you that there is not just one Master Plan, but they do have an Anaheim/nearby cities wish list. Later this year, Disney will file the minorly revised Eastern Gateway plan, and depending how that goes, Disney would love to shuffle things around. One big issue is the Toy Story Lot, which is only temporarily zoned for parking (It is still zoned for agriculture). If that can be worked out (the city wants to build the Gene Autry extension), that is another major puzzle piece. Disney is looking for more space away from the resort for BOH Support stuff. They have talked to a property manager for a large property near me (think I-5 and Magnolia), not sure if it has gone any further than a first talk, but does show Disney has been looking.

Disney is also watching the situation with Angels Baseball, in case that fails to be worked out. (Personally I am 90% sure it will go through).

So yes, a Master Plan would be wonderful, but the Western Structure/Hotel changes messed up a bunch of plans, and everything has been in flex mode since then.

But in Disney's mind, any Theme Park development will only be in the current DLR Specific Plan land. So the key is to move as much as possible to other locations.

Heck, when USCIS moves out (Eastern Gateway land), you might not see it turned into parking, but something else.

 

[Disney Irish]

I guess I can step in here. The priority to expansion is dealings with Anaheim, and nearby cities.

I can tell you that there is not just one Master Plan, but they do have an Anaheim/nearby cities wish list. Later this year, Disney will file the minorly revised Eastern Gateway plan, and depending how that goes, Disney would love to shuffle things around. One big issue is the Toy Story Lot, which is only temporarily zoned for parking (It is still zoned for agriculture). If that can be worked out (the city want to build the Gene Autry extension), that is another major puzzle piece. Disney is looking for more space away from the resort for BOH Support stuff. They have talked to a property manager for a large property near me (think I-5 and Manchester), not should if it has gone any further than a first talk, but does show Disney has been looking.

Disney is also watching the situation with Angels Baseball, in case that fails to be worked out. (Personally I am 90% sure it will go through).

So yes, a Master Plan would be wonderful, but the Western Structure/Hotel changes messed up a bunch of plans, and everything has been in flex mode since then.

But in Disney's mind, any Theme Park development will only be in the current DLR Specific Plan land. So the key is to move as much as possible to other locations.

Heck, when USCIS moves out (Eastern Gateway land), you might not see it turned into parking, but something else.

Following your postings and the rest of the political winds in Anaheim this is what I expect was happening.

USCIS would make a perfect new TDA building....

 

[Darkbeer1]

The only thing I can think of is fear of and permitting and cost of retrofitting for earthquakes. But as I understand it the Subs show building and basement section in that area could double as a military grade fallout shelter. So who knows, much is the shortsightedness of the 90s TDA.

But its one thing that could have solved all this, a BoH city under DCA where the entire DLR footprint could be used for expansion. Ah the possibilities.

The problem is trying to build a basement level.

WDW didn't build a basement, they built the Utilidors at grade, then after all the main buildings were finished (Second and third floors), they used bulldozers to build a mound around them to make the second level "ground level", placing the Utilidors under the mound.

 

[Disney Irish]

The problem is trying to build a basement level.

WDW didn't build a basement, they built the Utilidors at grade, then after all the main buildings were finished (Second and third floors), they used bulldozers to build a mound around them to make the second level "ground level", placing the Utilidors under the mound.

Well that’s what I really meant when saying basement...

 

[BrianLo]

I don't understand it either. But Pressler was a dolt.

Can you speak in some more generalities about what the main purposes of those back stage facilities are? Entertainment support, offices, break rooms?

There is obviously some validity in discussions of consolidating the BOH especially with a new facility popping up. I think the entire conversation has been focused on moving it off property, but the cards can be shuffled in that plot.

Even if the functions are fixed, it doesn’t mean a better designed consolidated facility can not be built there. This would presumably be the logical point for them to do so.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Can you speak in some more generalities about what the main purposes of those back stage facilities are? Entertainment support, offices, break rooms?

There is obviously some validity in discussions of consolidating the BOH especially with a new facility popping up. I think the entire conversation has been focused on moving it off property, but the cards can be shuffled in that plot.

Even if the functions are fixed, it doesn’t mean a better designed consolidated facility can not be built there. This would presumably be the logical point for them to do so.

Actually, the logical point was when they built DCA. But they wasted acreage. They thought it was so important to build a sprawling hotel (Grand Californian) within the confines of the most constricted park location in the world (DCA). They built nothing underground or on the second floor.

Many of the BOH functions moved for SW:GE, including the staff shops and Circle D Ranch, were due to move off-property for years. But they're running out of things to move. The remaining staff shops they are moving for MMRR are really cutting it to the bone. Repairing animatronics and ride vehicles off-property adds layers of complexity and risk. They're now at the point where they have moved something in the area of 80-90% of what they can. There's really not much left. You're free to develop your own sources to find out more about this, but I've shared as much detail as I'm comfortable with.

IMO, there are a lot of things they could improve. But once things are densely built, it's harder to demo and rebuild. River Belle Terrace complex is a nightmare. They should have rebuilt it while Fan! was down. Between Main St. and Tomorrowland is a great opportunity to build a basement and some second story space. They got rid of the old Mickey's Mint (the prefab modular building that was the CM BofA branch in the '70s and later the emergency command post). The prefab CM service center (opened as "The Center" in the '70s) is also supposed to go. They wimped out on the streamlined crowd bypass on the East side of Main St. They're just not willing to commit the money.

Obviously, I don't understand the value calculation here. The one thing they can't create more of is land within the Resort boundaries, yet they have wasted so much. All of the functions of the two service buildings at the East end of SW:GE could be in basements. They could have stacked the Indy and Pirates queues on the side of the Pirates building. And Adventureland has gone downhill since they built Tiki Room--it may have made sense for 1961-sized crowds, but not 21st century!

I understand that my opinion about moving out more BOH functions is unpopular. But I've given as much detail as I'm comfortable with. Long-time friends have shared things with me essentially off-the-record and I'm not willing to go into more detail. So if people don't believe me, I'm ok with that. I was not surprised by the things they moved for SW:GE, although a few of the details were somewhat surprising to me. The relocations for MMRR are a bit more of a surprise to me because of the operational ramifications. I think it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Any moves beyond this will have a much greater impact on operations. I can't absolutely predict what they will do in the next 5-10 years but I believe they're running out of options. YMMV.

 

[truecoat]

Actually, the logical point was when they built DCA. But they wasted acreage. They thought it was so important to build a sprawling hotel (Grand Californian) within the confines of the most constricted park location in the world (DCA). They built nothing underground or on the second floor.

Many of the BOH functions moved for SW:GE, including the staff shops and Circle D Ranch, were due to move off-property for years. But they're running out of things to move. The remaining staff shops they are moving for MMRR are really cutting it to the bone. Repairing animatronics and ride vehicles off-property adds layers of complexity and risk. They're now at the point where they have moved something in the area of 80-90% of what they can. There's really not much left. You're free to develop your own sources to find out more about this, but I've shared as much detail as I'm comfortable with.

IMO, there are a lot of things they could improve. But once things are densely built, it's harder to demo and rebuild. River Belle Terrace complex is a nightmare. They should have rebuilt it while Fan! was down. Between Main St. and Tomorrowland is a great opportunity to build a basement and some second story space. They got rid of the old Mickey's Mint (the prefab modular building that was the CM BofA branch in the '70s and later the emergency command post). The prefab CM service center (opened as "The Center" in the '70s) is also supposed to go. They wimped out on the streamlined crowd bypass on the East side of Main St. They're just not willing to commit the money.

Obviously, I don't understand the value calculation here. The one thing they can't create more of is land within the Resort boundaries, yet they have wasted so much. All of the functions of the two service buildings at the East end of SW:GE could be in basements. They could have stacked the Indy and Pirates queues on the side of the Pirates building. And Adventureland has gone downhill since they built Tiki Room--it may have made sense for 1961-sized crowds, but not 21st century!

I understand that my opinion about moving out more BOH functions is unpopular. But I've given as much detail as I'm comfortable with. Long-time friends have shared things with me essentially off-the-record and I'm not willing to go into more detail. So if people don't believe me, I'm ok with that. I was not surprised by the things they moved for SW:GE, although a few of the details were somewhat surprising to me. The relocations for MMRR are a bit more of a surprise to me because of the operational ramifications. I think it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Any moves beyond this will have a much greater impact on operations. I can't absolutely predict what they will do in the next 5-10 years but I believe they're running out of options. YMMV.

Thanks for sharing what you can. I am always interested in information like this and what @Darkbeer1 shares and obviously both people (among others) have to tread lightly on what they say.

 

[180º]

Actually, the logical point was when they built DCA. But they wasted acreage. They thought it was so important to build a sprawling hotel (Grand Californian) within the confines of the most constricted park location in the world (DCA). They built nothing underground or on the second floor.

Grand Californian shares a rather impressive underground service road with Downtown Disney, so I wouldn’t quite say they built nothing underground.

 

[DanielBB8]

I didn't think DCA has any relation with Disneyland in terms of backstage usage. DCA was underdeveloped with vacant land that will soon be put into use so being concerned about the Grand Californian taking up DCA space doesn't make a good argument. I don't consider this hotel to be in DCA. It is clearly outside the park.

You make a good point about Disneyland losing backstage space, but it's increasing an issue of Disney not using their existing spaces to the fullest extent, that you already said. Many lot spaces reserved for flat parking east of Disneyland Drive can be used to host backstage support services. Disney has plenty of money to buy up more property in Anaheim as well. Disney not wanting to do things is well documented. So? It will never be ideal in any case. They can come as close as possible and stop short. Then they exceed it. Reality works this way.

 

[SSG]

BLD2019-01772	Electrical for Disney - Main Street / Central Hub
BLD2019-01817	DCA - Award Wienners/301-A - Tenant Improvement: 595 sq ft for facade renovation with new side wing wall and soffit. Install new canopy structure to support new marquee signanage (separate package). 20 sq ft prefabricated ticket booth to be used as show prop.

SGN2019-00102

Installation of (2) illuminated wall cabinets for "rinse bath & body co."

SGN2019-00103

Disney - Sunset Showcase Theatre - Installation of (1) illuminated wall mounted marquee, (1) illuminated double faced blad sign, and (2) illuminated single face psoter cases.

 

[socalifornian]

I didn't think DCA has any relation with Disneyland in terms of backstage usage. DCA was underdeveloped with vacant land that will soon be put into use so being concerned about the Grand Californian taking up DCA space doesn't make a good argument. I don't consider this hotel to be in DCA. It is clearly outside the park.

You make a good point about Disneyland losing backstage space, but it's increasing an issue of Disney not using their existing spaces to the fullest extent, that you already said. Many lot spaces reserved for flat parking east of Disneyland Drive can be used to host backstage support services. Disney has plenty of money to buy up more property in Anaheim as well. Disney not wanting to do things is well documented. So? It will never be ideal in any case. They can come as close as possible and stop short. Then they exceed it. Reality works this way.

The Grand is outside the park, but I think they were saying that it exists within what should have been DCAs footprint. This park nearly lost a Galaxys Edge amount of land by placing the hotel there when it could’ve gone west of Disneyland Dr. like the other two hotels

 

[DanielBB8]

The park is still not fully built out with the vacant parking lot at the south east. They will still try to build into the transportation area after Eastern Gateway is approved. Hollywood Pictures Backlot has long been unrealized. The north part of Paradise Pier and the Trail are filler attractions. I'm not at all concerned about the Grand Californian.

 

[Anjin]

BLD2019-01817

DCA - Award Wienners/301-A - Tenant Improvement: 595 sq ft for facade renovation with new side wing wall and soffit. Install new canopy structure to support new marquee signanage (separate package). 20 sq ft prefabricated ticket booth to be used as show prop.

What in the world is happening to Award Weiners?