Panel Approves Bullet Train Service to Disney World

[Wilt Dasney]

Originally posted by turkey leg boy
How does this defeat the purpose?

As a high-speed transit system, largely connecting cities throughout the state, it makes sense to only have one or two stops per city. Having a high-speed rail isn't created to serve a community, but communities spread out over a large distance.

Disney is the the biggest draw for Orlando. It only makes sense to have 1) the airport 2) WDW. If this were to be a localized light rail system, I don't think Disney would be as upset.

Yeah, by "community" there, I really was referring to the state at-large, not Orlando, even though it wasn't phrased clearly. And unless Disney is willing to allow an on-site transportation hub going from the rail stop to other locations around town, then I think it does defeat the purpose. Disney might be the main draw, but they're not the only draw. I just was really turned off by the way they turned their nose up at anything but a Disney-only route, if this thing is really designed to serve the state.

Originally posted by niteobsrvr
If you want to get down to it, neither route makes sense for Central Floridians. Most of us do not live near the airport, Convention Center, or Disney.

You're right, and I wasn't trying to say that the locals were screwed over by this plan, because the idea isn't going to benefit locals, no matter how they do it, in its current form. I still think Disney took a very narrow view of something that was intended to benefit people outside of Disney tourists.

I don't have a problem with a nonstop line from the airport to Disney (I think it's a great idea, actually). I do have a problem with Disney strong-arming that result out of a project that wasn't intended to be that (and a project that will be funded from many sources outside of Disney).

 

[thedisneyfan]

I think that it's insane to not have a convention center stop as well. Disney is not all that makes Orlando. The other route gave Disney a stop as well. To ignore the entire needs of Orlando's future just for the sake of Disney is ridiculous unless Disney wants to foot the entire bill for the Orlando area.

As to Jeb and the legislature their very adept at ignoring state laws, courts, Constitutions, and the will of the people. Maybe if Halliburton could get part of the deal, then it would be ok.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

And just to clarify a little more, I'm not put out over Disney insisting that the rail only stop there if there's only one stop. If you're making one stop in Orlando, make it Disney. That's a no-brainer.

But I seem to recall discussions earlier of putting several stops in Orlando on the line: I-Drive, Universal, etc. Disney threw a fit over this, and said that if the rail stopped anywhere else outside of Disney, they wouldn't back it. I may be remembering incorrectly, but that's what I recall, and that's what I have a big problem with here.

 

[AndyMagic]

Originally posted by Dr Albert Falls
AndyMagic--

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

"There is nothing Jed Bush can do about it."

Actually, he already has. This summer, in a very visible attack on the high speed rail amendment, he cut nearly all of the train money from the state's budget. (He later provided just enough money for the Florida High Speed Rail Authority to meet a few more times to finalize their rail plans before the package is put on a shelf to collect dust).

Last year, lawmakers passed a bill requiring project costs to be included on constitutional ballots. Now, Jeb Bush is trying to get the High Speed Rail initiative BACK on the ballot, hoping voters will change their mind now that they see the 3 billion dollar price tag.

"The project is already WAY "off the ground""

How so? They just selected the route and the vendor yesterday. Even then, those are just proposals that still need to be approved by the Florida legislature. Plus, the state still needs to get federal approval regarding the project's environmental impact (see next point)

"Phase 1 is supposed to start construction at the end of 2003 according to the official high speed rail website"

True, the constitutional amendment requires construction by November 1st. But it was LITERALLY an impossible request by voters; it takes years to get federal approval on any rail project. So the Florida High Speed Rail Authority is interpreting "construction" to mean "submitting environmental impact reports to the Federal Railroad Administration". (You'll find that buried somewhere on the same webstie) The feds could easily reject the rail proposal, putting Florida is back where it started.

"It's gonna happen."

You are obviously way out of touch on this issue. Which is fine. But if you're going to sign your name to an factually inaccurate post, others are going to set the record straight.

Either you are pulling this all out of thin air, or you are the only person who knows of this information. If the project truly wasn't going to happen, no one would have cared about the final decisions that were made yesterday. The newspapers briefly mentioned Bush's hatred for the system but nothing is mentioned that would give an indication that it won't be built at all. And yes, it is already far off the ground. The only thing left is construction. The ammendment was passed in 2000 and there have already been 3 years worth of planning and preliminary budgeting. Jed might be able to delay the process but unless everyone suddenly changes their mind and agrees with him, it's gonna get built eventually. Why have 3 years of planning and all of this controversy over where the stops are going to go at all then? If Jed has the "power" to really put his foot down then why did he wait 3 years and waste so much of the states money on development of the project at all?? Until I see an article stating that the project is no longer a go, your statements have about as much validity as an opinion.

 

[DMC-12]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Maybe if Halliburton could get part of the deal, then it would be ok.

:lol: Sure, as long a Cheney and Dubya got a cut, I dont see why not. :lookaroun :zipit:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
To ignore the entire needs of Orlando's future just for the sake of Disney is ridiculous unless Disney wants to foot the entire bill for the Orlando area.

Absolutely...if they want to be the only stop, then they should pay upfront for every inch of track between the airport and the parks. "Guaranteeing" residual income by saying that more people will ride a Disney-only line than would otherwise isn't exactly footing the bill.

 

[TURKEY]

Originally posted by AndyMagic
Either you are pulling this all out of thin air, or you are the only person who knows of this information. If the project truly wasn't going to happen, no one would have cared about the final decisions that were made yesterday. The newspapers briefly mentioned Bush's hatred for the system but nothing is mentioned that would give an indication that it won't be built at all. And yes, it is already far off the ground. The only thing left is construction. The ammendment was passed in 2000 and there have already been 3 years worth of planning and preliminary budgeting. Jed might be able to delay the process but unless everyone suddenly changes their mind and agrees with him, it's gonna get built eventually. Why have 3 years of planning and all of this controversy over where the stops are going to go at all then? If Jed has the "power" to really put his foot down then why did he wait 3 years and waste so much of the states money on development of the project at all?? Until I see an article stating that the project is no longer a go, your statements have about as much validity as an opinion.

Actually, I remember something similar to what he's saying.

The budget has been cut.

Plus this isn't a plan for the entire state, only the Orlando area.

Once the route is decided, a final budget will be made. I'm pretty sure this has to pass the legislature if any money is to come from the government. Jeb has said that he will veto anything that passes by his desk relating to this project.

This means without a major backing of national support and private funds (be it corporate or individual donations), it will be very hard to get the ENTIRE project built. That's not to say that a Orlando rail system won't be built.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by AndyMagic
Either you are pulling this all out of thin air, or you are the only person who knows of this information. If the project truly wasn't going to happen, no one would have cared about the final decisions that were made yesterday. The newspapers briefly mentioned Bush's hatred for the system but nothing is mentioned that would give an indication that it won't be built at all. And yes, it is already far off the ground. The only thing left is construction. The ammendment was passed in 2000 and there have already been 3 years worth of planning and preliminary budgeting. Jed might be able to delay the process but unless everyone suddenly changes their mind and agrees with him, it's gonna get built eventually. Why have 3 years of planning and all of this controversy over where the stops are going to go at all then? If Jed has the "power" to really put his foot down then why did he wait 3 years and waste so much of the states money on development of the project at all?? Until I see an article stating that the project is no longer a go, your statements have about as much validity as an opinion.

As another resident of florida, I can say that neither of these statements are true. He isn't pulling them out of thin air and anyone down here who follows the news knows that Jeb has been trying to kill this from day one and it is a FAR from done deal regardless of what you may have been lead to believe.

The only thing left is construction? Well, there is still land to be acquired and no final engineering plans have been completed for the exact design of any length of the track at all yet that I'm aware of...

Yep, if you don't count any of that it is almost complete. I mean, all they have to do is find the money, get the land, design it, and build it. Shoot, they should be able to pull all that off over a long weekend.

Are you really up in NJ? If so trust those of us who are down here that actually receive regular information about what is going on. It hasn't been stopped but it is NOT a set in stone project. Even after the first bulldozers get going, it won't be a done deal.

 

[polyman 65]

Maybe in NJ they get there state construction projects done.I to will believe it when I see the first train.Yes they have had 3 years to get there ducks in a row and construction should start soon but It doesent always work that way.I'm sure its all about money if Disney wants this to happen it will,Im sure that why its going to Disney and not down I-4 to Universal and there always unstable ownership,maybe didnt want to put out the $$.I do hope this happens It will be great for Disney,They should have approved Walts original plans of there own airport but that will never happen.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
I think that it's insane to not have a convention center stop as well. Disney is not all that makes Orlando. The other route gave Disney a stop as well. To ignore the entire needs of Orlando's future just for the sake of Disney is ridiculous unless Disney wants to foot the entire bill for the Orlando area.

Why not a stop at one of the outlet malls as well then? How about a stop at a 7-11?
This is a high speed rail. It isn't a light rail or subway like system. It isn't even like Amtrack. We are talking about top speeds of well over 100 mph. The Orlando area really doesn't need more than ONE stop for something like this. One stop is all anyone else is getting. Heck, it probably won't even get up to full speed before having to slow down on the trip between Disney and the airport another stop or two in the Orlando area and suddenly it is a slow transportation system for Orlando instead of the first leg of a state wide rail... All the individual stops, those are supposed to be handled by another kind of system such as busses or light rail.

I still believe firmly that the only reason it is even going to stop at Disney (instead of Disney having a stretch of light rail like everyone else) is someone figured out that DIsney can generate $55 million a year in revenue for the system that is expected to cost about $75 million to maintain. Yes, that is over two thirds of the entire cost of upkeep for a statewide system being paid for by a whole lot of people traveling the shortest stretch of the track. If this were not included on the state funded train, all of that money would probably be going to a local government to support their light rail system instead.

Disney will in a sense be "footing the bill" for quite a bit more than the Orlando area. That's why they favored the Disney route - it will generate more money.

 

[mkt]

My opinion on this...

if you're not a resident of Florida, I could care less about your opinion... since I'm the one that has to live with the decisions that are made... not you. You'll be here 2 weeks a year... I'm here 52.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by Wilt Dasney
Absolutely...if they want to be the only stop, then they should pay upfront for every inch of track between the airport and the parks. "Guaranteeing" residual income by saying that more people will ride a Disney-only line than would otherwise isn't exactly footing the bill.

For some reason I'm thinking that was about a light rail system that would branch off from the airport when the airport was going to be the only Orlando area stop for the high speed rail. Disney wanted their own direct track that would go back and forth and the I-Drive crowd wanted Disney on their loop.

With that system, Disney refused to cooperate if they were put on the loop with all of the rest of I-Drive. I think the logic they were fronting was that they wanted a direct route to and from the airport which wouldn't 'require' their guests to take a detour through Orlando either on their way to the resort or on their way to the airport. (this is actually a legitimate argument - anyone who has ever stayed off property and tried to use the hotel provided bus for Disney - you know, the one that stops at two dozen hotels on the way - knows what a hassle that is) The other argument that they didn't really want to publicly make is that they saw no need to support a transportation system that would take people coming to the Orlando area specifically to go to Disney and then give them half a dozen opportunities to easily and conveniently go directly to the competition. While I can see where that second argument may sound greedy, you have to keep in mind that the I-Drive crowd wanted to be on the same track as Disney SPECIFICALLY, so that they would have easy access to all of those people going to Disney. There was and is still no other real advantage besides cost of track for their design... And if Disney sees this as something that will siphon off their business than they have absolutely no motivation to cooperate in the least. I mean, it would essentially be Disney subsidizing the greater Orlando area tourism by giving away parts of their business while providing a large number of passengers that pay for the system that is literally driving their business off property....

As for the Disney should pay for it if they want it their way argument, you are welcome to hold that position but the rest of us live in a place I like to call the real world. Disney doesn't have to pay for it because the amount of traffic they can send to either light rail or high speed rail (four to five times more than the rest of the Orlando area combined) gives them complete leverage because even though it costs more to go along with Disney, it might not be possible for the state or county to afford the system without the business that Disney will provide.

Before you start getting too upset about tax payers money going to private industry consider this:

Every major sports team should probably also pay for the construction and maintenance of the venus they play in. Today, a lot of them don't even pay rent if the games don't come close to selling out. On a state or national level what kind of a public burden is that? And what does the public get in return? Several dozen low wage jobs for locals, some free advertising for the community and a bunch of sports bars?

You don't have to be thrilled with what is happening with Disney but at least understand that in the long run, they will FAR MORE than pay for their leg of the system. In fact, when it is all said and done, they may be one of the only things that can keep the whole plan financially viable - you know, much like they keep the entire central Florida tourist industry viable today.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by mkt
My opinion on this...

if you're not a resident of Florida, I could care less about your opinion... since I'm the one that has to live with the decisions that are made... not you. You'll be here 2 weeks a year... I'm here 52.

The irony of all of this is that the high speed rail will probably benefit the regular residents the least of any group. I don't know about you but I don't have that much of a need to go across the state on a regular basis and depending on the costs, I probably would not use it to go to Disney, either... The monorail / light rail discussion that has popped up everywhere to branch out off the system might be of some use but I don't seem most Floridians using the high speed rail too often...

For me it is sort of like that whole phone rate thing they are pushing through. The phone companies argue that by increasing the rate of our local service by like 75% over the next few years it will somehow lower the price we pay by promoting competition and also reducing the cost for long distance calls. I have yet to see how raising the rates will help me since the competition would have to push rates down lower than they are now for it to benefit anyone and I make long distance calls with my cell phone because they are free so the bottom like for me is that I'll be paying more money.

The bottom line for me is this high speed rail is going to cost me money and I'm probably not going to see most of the benefit from it. I want them to do whatever they can to make it as viable and self sustaining as possible so that it won't be a money pit for this state the way Amtrak is for the entire nation. If that means putting in a stop that benefits a private company because it will generate more revenue for the state than a public convention center holding private events I say go with the former.

 

[Dr Albert Falls]

AndyMagic writes--
"And yes, it is already far off the ground. The only thing left is construction."

Yes, construction. And chosing whether its going to be electric or diesel-powered engine. And creating workable blueprints based on what type of power they use. And getting the environmental permits from the federal government. And purchasing right-of-way from private landowners along the route (its not ALL going on government-owned land). Oh yeah, and coming up with the THREE BILLION DOLLARS to pay for it all!!!!!

"If Jed has the "power" to really put his foot down then why did he wait 3 years and waste so much of the states money on development of the project at all??"

First of all, the governor's name is JEB. If you can't get that right, I don't know how you can talk with authority on this issue.

Jeb does NOT have the "power" to block a constitutional amendment. At least not in the literal sense. But he DOES have the political power to block funding for the project (which he has already done.) The constitutional amendment requires the LEGISLATURE to build the high speed rail, not the governor.

Why did Jeb wait 3 years and waste the state's money? Well, HE wasn't the one that put it on the ballot-- the voters did (without being told about the 3 billion dollar price tag or how it would be paid for-- a mistake the legislature has since corrected). The people wanted the studies done-- so the studies are being done. But when it came time to hand over some money, the governor put his foot down. And I'm sure he didn't think twice. After all, Jeb's still got to fund the class size amendment voters wanted.


Until I see an article stating that the project is no longer a go, your statements have about as much validity as an opinion.

 

[Legacy]

I look at it like this...

I'm from Florida. My home (well, you know) is right outside Orlando. I won't use the system. Unless I feel like riding to Miami one day, it's something I don't feel is nessicary. I think Disney's actions are viable but I don't agree with them. The rail needs Disney, Disney doesn't need the rail, and I don't want to pay for it anyway.

I say screw it; it would be a waste of time and space. In the time it took the one (maybe two) trains to go from Orlando, Disney, Tampa, Miami, Tampa, Disney, Orlando, you could have ridden a bus and gotten there. I think with the way Orlando and Florida as a whole is laid out it's stupid.

But the debate does make for some good reading.

 

[EvilMortimer]

The state of FL needs this network of high speed rail and innercity lightrail & monorail deeply. Without it, in the next ten years, you would need 10 lanes on I4, Almost double the current number of lanes. This rail is needed, unless you want FL to look like LA. It will get the tourists off the roads. Of course, this will hurt the rental car business, but on the other hand, if we don't do it we will be caught in traffic and be up to our elbows in smog.

 

[Andrew015]

Is the rail project a go for sure???

 

[thedisneyfan]

Originally posted by MrPromey
Why not a stop at one of the outlet malls as well then? How about a stop at a 7-11?
This is a high speed rail. It isn't a light rail or subway like system. It isn't even like Amtrack. We are talking about top speeds of well over 100 mph. The Orlando area really doesn't need more than ONE stop for something like this. One stop is all anyone else is getting. Heck, it probably won't even get up to full speed before having to slow down on the trip between Disney and the airport

Disney will in a sense be "footing the bill" for quite a bit more than the Orlando area. That's why they favored the Disney route - it will generate more money.

The other route was a Disney route as well. To say heck with Universal, the convention center, or any other area is sacrificing everything that the train was supposedly to do for the REGION all for the sake of Disney. This will be a big mistake. If your so worried about having too many stops, then the Airport should be THE ONLY stop and Disney and everyone else should be part of a lightrail line.

 

[niteobsrvr]

Originally posted by EvilMortimer
The state of FL needs this network of high speed rail and innercity lightrail & monorail deeply. Without it, in the next ten years, you would need 10 lanes on I4, Almost double the current number of lanes. This rail is needed, unless you want FL to look like LA. It will get the tourists off the roads. Of course, this will hurt the rental car business, but on the other hand, if we don't do it we will be caught in traffic and be up to our elbows in smog.

I doubt seriously that this will get the tourists off the road. Many of the ones who fly here now and take a bus to Disney or wherever eventually rent cars at their resort or Hotel to take in the other attractions.

The lanes on I-4 will inevitably double anyway and yes Florida is going to end up looking exactly like LA. This will be complete with the high cost of living, owning a home, and other necessities. The problem has little to do with the roads and a whole lot to do with how we use them. THousands of gas guzzling SUV's and other cars running down the interstate and high rates of speed with only one occupant is ineffiency at its best.

The only real solution to this problem is to wait. Eventually, the price of gasoline will reach 4 or 5 dollars a gallon and when it does people's driving habits will change. First they will switch to Hybrid vehicles to lessen the impact on their wallets. Then they will begin car-pooling to mitigate the continuing rise of operating a vehicle.

Finally, they will begin to see the value of living closer to where they work and shop. They will also begin to see the value in Mass transit because for those short trips down the road a couple of miles to work or shop it will be incredibly efficient. The car will become a luxury with only one per household instead of five. It will be used to reach places where trains and busses would prove to be impratical.

Many forms of transportation have existed in the past that allowed America to grow and prosper. It is the automobile, however, that allowed us to spread like a fungus across the landscape of this country destoying much of its beauty and resources.

 

[Andrew015]

Originally posted by Andrew015
Is the rail project a go for sure???

can anyone confirm this??? Will this get shot down like the other rail proposals in the past.... or is this one going up for sure?