O'Sentinel - NextGen - 1/17/10

[Christi22222]

I am surprised at everyone's disdainful dismissal of jt's and Kevin's concerns. I don't think they are claiming that the world will end or that "Big Brother" will truly come to fruition. (Although you all have certainly pushed jt into some extreme statements by belittling his opinion and making it sound outlandish.) I actually share some of their concerns. I obviously am not afraid of being called a spy or communist or put in jail by Disney's use of this technology. Those things, despite having historical basis, are certainly far fetched in this era. However, I dislike this on a far more personal level, such as Kevin Yee has described. I really don't enjoy being pigeon holed or labeled or categorized. It is unnerving. I don't want someone analyzing everything I do and steering me. I don't like Pandora radio for that reason. I change. I grow. I want options. I want to try new things. I want to do things I don't like. I want to experience things I don't expect. And I sure don't want commercial America of any sort - Disney or otherwise - to have information to a degree that they can screw with my head in an attempt to get money out of me. Do they a little already? Sure, and I know this. But I used to work at a zoo, and a rule that applies to most areas in life I learned there: I am willing to shovel ________; but I am not willing to shovel endless ________ all the time. So, I am willing to accept a little data mining because it isn't the end of the world and it is so far at a level I can cope with. But when you hear a number like $1.5 billion, it certainly brings on an uh-oh and makes one wonder how much ________ exactly you'll have to shovel. And yes, I am well aware that I can choose not to go to Disney. But obviously I like to, hence I post here, so having them adopt a new technology (potentially) that will make me choose them or succumb to a higher loss of privacy is a bummer.

Is that really such an offensive or outrageous opinion?

 

[Christi22222]

We really have to filter the p--p word? Wow! That surprises me, as I thought I was being pc enough since I didn't say a word that begins with s. My apologies.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I am surprised at everyone's disdainful dismissal of jt's and Kevin's concerns. I don't think they are claiming that the world will end or that "Big Brother" will truly come to fruition. (Although you all have certainly pushed jt into some extreme statements by belittling his opinion and making it sound outlandish.) I actually share some of their concerns. I obviously am not afraid of being called a spy or communist or put in jail by Disney's use of this technology. Those things, despite having historical basis, are certainly far fetched in this era. However, I dislike this on a far more personal level, such as Kevin Yee has described. I really don't enjoy being pigeon holed or labeled or categorized. It is unnerving. I don't want someone analyzing everything I do and steering me. I don't like Pandora radio for that reason. I change. I grow. I want options. I want to try new things. I want to do things I don't like. I want to experience things I don't expect. And I sure don't want commercial America of any sort - Disney or otherwise - to have information to a degree that they can screw with my head in an attempt to get money out of me. Do they a little already? Sure, and I know this. But I used to work at a zoo, and a rule that applies to most areas in life I learned there: I am willing to shovel ________; but I am not willing to shovel endless ________ all the time. So, I am willing to accept a little data mining because it isn't the end of the world and it is so far at a level I can cope with. But when you hear a number like $1.5 billion, it certainly brings on an uh-oh and makes one wonder how much ________ exactly you'll have to shovel. And yes, I am well aware that I can choose not to go to Disney. But obviously I like to, hence I post here, so having them adopt a new technology (potentially) that will make me choose them or succumb to a higher loss of privacy is a bummer.

Is that really such an offensive or outrageous opinion?

And it's not like you won't havethe choice to do so. RFID won't control you in the parks if you don't want it to. I certainly didn't let KPSWA do that to my visit in WS, though that is a much less extreme example.

Your opinion is fine...it's just the extreme extent that everyone thinks that this tech has on you is what's outlandish. You have half a brain? You'll be fine. Put that common sense to use. Disney won't get all your money. :lol:

 

[jt04]

With the right equipment and the right knowledge (and common sense!) it's quite easy to know what's a threat and what's not.


You do make a good point, though.

Oh boy. When I make similar points you dismiss them.


Here is my concern. Look at how many people are not concerned with these type technologies. And it's usually people who have a high opinion of themselves and think they will be at the top of the food chain. They are dangerously naive. No matter how much common sense you have or ability to recognize threats, if you are surrounded by enough people who are not so observent, it won't matter. And once control is lost to even a small number of people with too much power it can be impossible to reverse. And, by the way, the first target of the power elite will be the people who recognized the threat and those with true common sense.

At least that is what has happened time and again in human history. Don't think for a second it can't happen again. It can. :wave:

 

[jt04]

I am surprised at everyone's disdainful dismissal of jt's and Kevin's concerns. I don't think they are claiming that the world will end or that "Big Brother" will truly come to fruition. (Although you all have certainly pushed jt into some extreme statements by belittling his opinion and making it sound outlandish.) I actually share some of their concerns. I obviously am not afraid of being called a spy or communist or put in jail by Disney's use of this technology. Those things, despite having historical basis, are certainly far fetched in this era. However, I dislike this on a far more personal level, such as Kevin Yee has described. I really don't enjoy being pigeon holed or labeled or categorized. It is unnerving. I don't want someone analyzing everything I do and steering me. I don't like Pandora radio for that reason. I change. I grow. I want options. I want to try new things. I want to do things I don't like. I want to experience things I don't expect. And I sure don't want commercial America of any sort - Disney or otherwise - to have information to a degree that they can screw with my head in an attempt to get money out of me. Do they a little already? Sure, and I know this. But I used to work at a zoo, and a rule that applies to most areas in life I learned there: I am willing to shovel ________; but I am not willing to shovel endless ________ all the time. So, I am willing to accept a little data mining because it isn't the end of the world and it is so far at a level I can cope with. But when you hear a number like $1.5 billion, it certainly brings on an uh-oh and makes one wonder how much ________ exactly you'll have to shovel. And yes, I am well aware that I can choose not to go to Disney. But obviously I like to, hence I post here, so having them adopt a new technology (potentially) that will make me choose them or succumb to a higher loss of privacy is a bummer.

Is that really such an offensive or outrageous opinion?

I pride myself in being the first to sound the alarm. I'm a bit "extreme" on purpose. I'd rather be wrong about this, trust me.

But I appreciate your moderate take on the issue. :wave:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Oh boy. When I make similar points you dismiss them.


Here is my concern. Look at how many people are not concerned with these type technologies. And it's usually people who have a high opinion of themselves and think they will be at the top of the food chain. They are dangerously naive. No matter how much common sense you have or ability to recognize threats, if you are surrounded by enough people who are not so observent, it won't matter. And once control is lost to even a small number of people with too much power it can be impossible to reverse. And, by the way, the first target of the power elite will be the people who recognized the threat and those with true common sense.

At least that is what has happened time and again in human history. Don't think for a second it can't happen again. It can. :wave:

Similar points, yes. Dismissed because of your alarmist and condescending tone.


Your point makes absolutely no sense in this post, though. Smart people will take over? Powerful people? Stupid people are going to make RFID take over? :shrug: :lol: I don't grasp these incoherencies.

If you are going after the political and government angle...Sure, this is something to watch. But in a Disney Park? I don't see the cause for alarm.

Remember last nights post on regulation? :wave:

 

[wm49rs]

Oh boy. When I make similar points you dismiss them.


Here is my concern. Look at how many people are not concerned with these type technologies. And it's usually people who have a high opinion of themselves and think they will be at the top of the food chain. They are dangerously naive. No matter how much common sense you have or ability to recognize threats, if you are surrounded by enough people who are not so observent, it won't matter. And once control is lost to even a small number of people with too much power it can be impossible to reverse. And, by the way, the first target of the power elite will be the people who recognized the threat and those with true common sense.

At least that is what has happened time and again in human history. Don't think for a second it can't happen again. It can. :wave:

Jt, if you don't like what WDW is doing, don't go. Don't post on these boards because we're the huddled masses ignoring your sage advice. Find some anti-Disney site where others will share your concerns and you can collectively get your message out. Hopefully the mainstream media will gather your message and spread it throughout the land. But like anything else, if you don't like something, change the channel or don't buy the product.

 

[Christi22222]

Jt, if you don't like what WDW is doing, don't go. Don't post on these boards because we're the huddled masses ignoring your sage advice. Find some anti-Disney site where others will share your concerns and you can collectively get your message out. Hopefully the mainstream media will gather your message and spread it throughout the land. But like anything else, if you don't like something, change the channel or don't buy the product.

Woohoo! Does anyone else enjoy this irony as much as myself? Mind you, not attacking this post in the least. But it's just funny that in countless other threads, jt is having to tell many of us to get off Disney's case or don't go if we don't like it!! Did I miss something? Did we fall down the rabbit hole? Just very funny. Where does the sheriff fall on this issue? :ROFLOL::ROFLOL:

 

[jt04]

Similar points, yes. Dismissed because of your alarmist and condescending tone.


Your point makes absolutely no sense in this post, though. Smart people will take over? Powerful people? Stupid people are going to make RFID take over? :shrug: :lol: I don't grasp these incoherencies.

If you are going after the political and government angle...Sure, this is something to watch. But in a Disney Park? I don't see the cause for alarm.

Remember last nights post on regulation? :wave:

Jt, if you don't like what WDW is doing, don't go. Don't post on these boards because we're the huddled masses ignoring your sage advice. Find some anti-Disney site where others will share your concerns and you can collectively get your message out. Hopefully the mainstream media will gather your message and spread it throughout the land. But like anything else, if you don't like something, change the channel or don't buy the product.

I have said over and over and over again I am not concerned with it's use at WDW. I AM concerned about the who, what, where, when, why and how, this technology and new software Disney is developing will be disseminated.

I have 1.5 billion reasons for my concern. There is more to this than meets the eye. I promise you that. :lookaroun

 

[jt04]

Woohoo! Does anyone else enjoy this irony as much as myself? Mind you, not attacking this post in the least. But it's just funny that in countless other threads, jt is having to tell many of us to get off Disney's case or don't go if we don't like it!! Did I miss something? Did we fall down the rabbit hole? Just very funny. Where does the sheriff fall on this issue? :ROFLOL::ROFLOL:

See previous post.

 

[Christi22222]

Jt, I agree with you! Just not quite to the same degree! But isn't it funny that you are usually on the opposite side defending Disney? You just proved your point that you don't defend them baselessly, because when you disagree, well, you really disagree! I was just amused at the irony....not attacking or making anyone defensive....

 

[jt04]

Jt, I agree with you! Just not quite to the same degree! But isn't it funny that you are usually on the opposite side defending Disney? You just proved your point that you don't defend them baselessly, because when you disagree, well, you really disagree! I was just amused at the irony....not attacking or making anyone defensive....

Yes I love the irony. I mostly defend the regular folk that work in the trenches including TDO. But I've always been a bit wary of the mouse as a corporation. I still think Iger is a good person, however.

But that 1.5 billion dollar budget has me scratching my head and wary of what we are actually witnessing here.

Bread and circuses? :lol::lookaroun

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I have said over and over and over again I am not concerned with it's use at WDW. I AM concerned about the who, what, where, when, why and how, this technology and new software Disney is developing will be disseminated.

I have 1.5 billion reasons for my concern. There is more to this than meets the eye. I promise you that. :lookaroun

Your concerns are not valid here, then. This is a WDW Board. When I talk about RFID, I am STRICTLY adhering to it's use in the parks. Not in the real world.

 

[mgf]

I appreciate the dialogue here because every person has a unique perspective on privacy. I am not naturally a "paranoid" person, but I can understand some of these concerns. I have been following this thread for awhile and wanted to toss out some comments for consideration. These are all meant to be general comments and are not directed at anyone. I think several of the following have been overlooked in favor of heated exchange:

1) Disney has a legal department. I am sure they are covering these topics.

2) Lawyers outside Disney would love to cash in on a class action lawsuit. I doubt Disney is going to willingly open the door. I include the ACLU in this group.

3) Disney is a private company with private property and paying customers. They do not face the same restrictions on data mining. Buying a ticket means entering into a contractual agreement.

4) $1.5 billion means this will be a major initiative. Publicity means it will be public knowledge. Therefore, consumers can make a choice whether they feel comfortable with the details. I doubt anything will go undiscovered by the time the blogs get done.

5) It is naive to think Disney does not already know how to make you spend money. It is not like Disney will be charging you by the second you are in the park. Self control will play just as big a role as before.

6) If you use your ticket, room key, or room charge you have already given tracking data to Disney. The same goes for other hotels, Amazon, and Netflix.

7) Having done work on queuing analysis and crowd flow, you only need numbers not individuals. You need to calculate arrival rate and service times. Turnstiles can give some of this data, but having accurate timing from when a person enters a queue, rides, exits, and enters another queue could provide valuable data for fine tuning traffic patterns.

This is why they throw those lanyards around your neck when you are in line. This is why you drive over hoses on streets during traffic studies. In the long run, shaving even a minute per person makes a remarkable differences to operations.

8) The old ticket books had serial numbers. Disney could have traced your coupon usage back then if they wanted.

9) From comments posted on the board, this program seems optional. I suspect this will be the case for people with concerns like Jt's.

10) We do not even know what the program entails. We should probably wait to hear details before we (metaphorical) fly the flag upside down.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I appreciate the dialogue here because every person has a unique perspective on privacy. I am not naturally a "paranoid" person, but I can understand some of these concerns. I have been following this thread for awhile and wanted to toss out some comments for consideration. These are all meant to be general comments and are not directed at anyone. I think several of the following have been overlooked in favor of heated exchange:

1) Disney has a legal department. I am sure they are covering these topics.

2) Lawyers outside Disney would love to cash in on a class action lawsuit. I doubt Disney is going to willingly open the door. I include the ACLU in this group.

3) Disney is a private company with private property and paying customers. They do not face the same restrictions on data mining. Buying a ticket means entering into a contractual agreement.

4) $1.5 billion means this will be a major initiative. Publicity means it will be public knowledge. Therefore, consumers can make a choice whether they feel comfortable with the details. I doubt anything will go undiscovered by the time the blogs get done.

5) It is naive to think Disney does not already know how to make you spend money. It is not like Disney will be charging you by the second you are in the park. Self control will play just as big a role as before.

6) If you use your ticket, room key, or room charge you have already given tracking data to Disney. The same goes for other hotels, Amazon, and Netflix.

7) Having done work on queuing analysis and crowd flow, you only need numbers not individuals. You need to calculate arrival rate and service times. Turnstiles can give some of this data, but having accurate timing from when a person enters a queue, rides, exits, and enters another queue could provide valuable data for fine tuning traffic patterns.

This is why they throw those lanyards around your neck when you are in line. This is why you drive over hoses on streets during traffic studies. In the long run, shaving even a minute per person makes a remarkable differences to operations.

8) The old ticket books had serial numbers. Disney could have traced your coupon usage back then if they wanted. Oh my!

9)From comments posted on the board, this program seems optional. I suspect this will be the case for people with concerns like Jt's.

10) We do not even know what the program entails. We should probably wait to hear details before we (metaphorical) fly the flag upside down.

1 & 2, exactly. 3, again, regulation.


Otherwise...AWESOME post.:sohappy:

 

[unkadug]

I appreciate the dialogue here because every person has a unique perspective on privacy. I am not naturally a "paranoid" person, but I can understand some of these concerns. I have been following this thread for awhile and wanted to toss out some comments for consideration. These are all meant to be general comments and are not directed at anyone. I think several of the following have been overlooked in favor of heated exchange:

1) Disney has a legal department. I am sure they are covering these topics.

2) Lawyers outside Disney would love to cash in on a class action lawsuit. I doubt Disney is going to willingly open the door. I include the ACLU in this group.

3) Disney is a private company with private property and paying customers. They do not face the same restrictions on data mining. Buying a ticket means entering into a contractual agreement.

4) $1.5 billion means this will be a major initiative. Publicity means it will be public knowledge. Therefore, consumers can make a choice whether they feel comfortable with the details. I doubt anything will go undiscovered by the time the blogs get done.

5) It is naive to think Disney does not already know how to make you spend money. It is not like Disney will be charging you by the second you are in the park. Self control will play just as big a role as before.

6) If you use your ticket, room key, or room charge you have already given tracking data to Disney. The same goes for other hotels, Amazon, and Netflix.

7) Having done work on queuing analysis and crowd flow, you only need numbers not individuals. You need to calculate arrival rate and service times. Turnstiles can give some of this data, but having accurate timing from when a person enters a queue, rides, exits, and enters another queue could provide valuable data for fine tuning traffic patterns.

This is why they throw those lanyards around your neck when you are in line. This is why you drive over hoses on streets during traffic studies. In the long run, shaving even a minute per person makes a remarkable differences to operations.

8) The old ticket books had serial numbers. Disney could have traced your coupon usage back then if they wanted. Oh my!

9)From comments posted on the board, this program seems optional. I suspect this will be the case for people with concerns like Jt's.

10) We do not even know what the program entails. We should probably wait to hear details before we (metaphorical) fly the flag upside down.

You make too much sense...JT will never listen to your logic.

Pick your battles. JT is a loss cause.

 

[wm49rs]

I have said over and over and over again I am not concerned with it's use at WDW. I AM concerned about the who, what, where, when, why and how, this technology and new software Disney is developing will be disseminated.

I have 1.5 billion reasons for my concern. There is more to this than meets the eye. I promise you that. :lookaroun

Yes, Jt, Disney is going to spend $1.5B is disseminate their developed technology and practices so someone else can enjoy the fruits of Disney's labor. Outside of the paying guests, of course...

 

[KevinYee]

There's no arguing that Disney *could* have been tracking and mining data all this time. FastPass makes that possible too. But two questions:

1. HAVE they really been doing it? Because if they haven't before, they are about to.
2. Won't this new technology make it EASIER? They are throwing big-time money at this, and no publicly-traded company throws big-time money around without an expectation of ROI.

I'm reasonably certain that most of the stuff NextGen will make possible will actually be stuff I like, enjoy, and am glad Disney customized for me. But, and I think this point has been made elsewhere in this thread, if Disney works as a trailblazer for this (and it really is revolutionary stuff), then expect the rest of society to work the same way.

Your credit cards, your car's GPS. Supermarkets will know what you purchase (which they probably do already, via reward cards). I'm not saying these things are being abused now. I'm saying RFID makes it easier to abuse them in the future. I could imagine a heavily RFID'd world having health insurance companies smack themselves upside the head and realize they are losing money by not customizing premiums based on your driving habits, your supermarket purchases. If my homeowner insurance company finds out I'm at Disney World every weekend, and staying in a different house, might that be cause to hike up my rates?

I'm as aware as the next guy that this sounds paranoid. The irony is not lost on me that I might have to actually resort to using aluminum to prevent surveillance - this is prime wacko stuff here I've landed in.

But at the same time, prudence dictates an investigation and exploration of the issues NOW, not after the horses have left the putative barn. So I'm wary, that's all.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Yes, Jt, Disney is going to spend $1.5B is disseminate their developed technology and practices so someone else can enjoy the fruits of Disney's labor. Outside of the paying guests, of course...

That's another thing. Disney's in this for entertainment...not resale. :lol:

There's no arguing that Disney *could* have been tracking and mining data all this time. FastPass makes that possible too. But two questions:

1. HAVE they really been doing it? Because if they haven't before, they are about to.
2. Won't this new technology make it EASIER? They are throwing big-time money at this, and no publicly-traded company throws big-time money around without an expectation of ROI.

I'm reasonably certain that most of the stuff NextGen will make possible will actually be stuff I like, enjoy, and am glad Disney customized for me. But, and I think this point has been made elsewhere in this thread, if Disney works as a trailblazer for this (and it really is revolutionary stuff), then expect the rest of society to work the same way.

Your credit cards, your car's GPS. Supermarkets will know what you purchase (which they probably do already, via reward cards). I'm not saying these things are being abused now. I'm saying RFID makes it easier to abuse them in the future. I could imagine a heavily RFID'd world having health insurance companies smack themselves upside the head and realize they are losing money by not customizing premiums based on your driving habits, your supermarket purchases. If my homeowner insurance company finds out I'm at Disney World every weekend, and staying in a different house, might that be cause to hike up my rates?

I'm as aware as the next guy that this sounds paranoid. The irony is not lost on me that I might have to actually resort to using aluminum to prevent surveillance - this is prime wacko stuff here I've landed in.

But at the same time, prudence dictates an investigation and exploration of the issues NOW, not after the horses have left the putative barn. So I'm wary, that's all.

Again, regulation. And again...That's not what this is about, really. I'm soley concerned with the use in the parks, for THIS thread at least. :lol:

 

[unkadug]

There's no arguing that Disney *could* have been tracking and mining data all this time. FastPass makes that possible too. But two questions:

1. HAVE they really been doing it? Because if they haven't before, they are about to.
2. Won't this new technology make it EASIER? They are throwing big-time money at this, and no publicly-traded company throws big-time money around without an expectation of ROI.

I'm reasonably certain that most of the stuff NextGen will make possible will actually be stuff I like, enjoy, and am glad Disney customized for me. But, and I think this point has been made elsewhere in this thread, if Disney works as a trailblazer for this (and it really is revolutionary stuff), then expect the rest of society to work the same way.

Your credit cards, your car's GPS. Supermarkets will know what you purchase (which they probably do already, via reward cards). I'm not saying these things are being abused now. I'm saying RFID makes it easier to abuse them in the future. I could imagine a heavily RFID'd world having health insurance companies smack themselves upside the head and realize they are losing money by not customizing premiums based on your driving habits, your supermarket purchases. If my homeowner insurance company finds out I'm at Disney World every weekend, and staying in a different house, might that be cause to hike up my rates?

I'm as aware as the next guy that this sounds paranoid. The irony is not lost on me that I might have to actually resort to using aluminum to prevent surveillance - this is prime wacko stuff here I've landed in.

But at the same time, prudence dictates an investigation and exploration of the issues NOW, not after the horses have left the putative barn. So I'm wary, that's all.

Bingo.

The 1.5 B is for R&D, implementation, and probably for marketing their technology to others.

They expect to see a profit and it's gullible to believe that profit will come from the parks alone.