Orlando Gunman Scouted WDW ...

[ford91exploder]

I am reasonably certain the likely low level FLO leaking the info does not have that sophisticated of an agenda. If the leak is coming from higher up, they would likely not mess around with freaking people out about going to Disney for no reason. Disney and FL tourism have too much influence to be toyed with for political gain. No one wants to own that kind of economic fall out. There is no upside.

(More likely this is probably Hanlon's Razor in action.)

If it increases the reach or power of an agency, well let's just say the economic fallout is immaterial only congresscritters care for economic fallout as it limits the pool of campaign cash.

 

[ford91exploder]

It is not uncommon for individuals who were not otherwise religious, but then become radicalized to engage in haram/forbidden behaviors. It is well-documented that extremist groups/FTOs like ISIS members will behave in ways contrary to Islam (b/c they aren't really practicing Islam, they are cherry-picking to support their extremist jihadist beliefs).

They hate what Disney stands for in so far as it is a representation of American values, beliefs, and way of life. Some extremist groups consider music haram, for example.

ETA: This shooter appears to have been equally motivated to commit terror by his homophobia as much as his radicalized religious beliefs. Not unusual, according to the persecution of homosexual individuals taking place by ISIS in Middle East.

Although whats bizzare is the amazing levels of homosexuality in the ME in spite of the dominant culture.

 

[SorcererMC]

But my problem is that all of the news agencies are now making it out like he was definitely targeting Disney or at least implying it. Disney has probably been talking with federal officials for the past 15 years, and maybe even before then, since there have been other terror attacks from the 80's and 90's. That isn't news, and never has been. What security measures are being taken by Disney is no one's right to know, since if they tell you, they tell the terrorists as well.

So yes, it is rumor-mongering by the press for clicks and views. Nothing more. You are simply helping it along by repeating the drivel, since the fact that he visited DS has NOTHING to do with the attack he perpetrated.

I would bet as well that Disney has a cozy relationship with law enforcement, but I have no knowledge of it so I won't speculate.

I will, however, continue to state the facts as they are known, so long as this thread remains open. I strongly disagree with your statement that "the fact he visited DS has NOTHING to do with the attack he perpetuated". It is observable behavior that a known terrorist made prior to committing an attack, and therefore relevant.

I contribute to this forum b/c I believe that a rational discussion regarding what happened is necessary, and that a little accurate knowledge and maybe understanding can go a long way towards restoring a sense of normalcy. I have no doubt that Orlando will be changed as a result of this, that vigilance will be essential - on the part of the public and Disney Company, and that Disney will continue to be a target, much like Times Square in NYC. It means there has to be a willingness to confront the issues, no matter how uncomfortable I/you/ people might feel about it.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

I would bet as well that Disney has a cozy relationship with law enforcement, but I have no knowledge of it so I won't speculate.

I will, however, continue to state the facts as they are known, so long as this thread remains open. I strongly disagree with your statement that "the fact he visited DS has NOTHING to do with the attack he perpetuated". It is observable behavior that a known terrorist made prior to committing an attack, and therefore relevant.

I contribute to this forum b/c I believe that a rational discussion regarding what happened is necessary, and that a little accurate knowledge and maybe understanding can go a long way towards restoring a sense of normalcy. I have no doubt that Orlando will be changed as a result of this, that vigilance will be essential - on the part of the public and Disney Company, and that Disney will continue to be a target, much like Times Square in NYC. It means there has to be a willingness to confront the issues, no matter how uncomfortable I/you/ people might feel about it.

Rational discussion is always better! But I still disagree. Millions of people visit WDW every year, and I'm willing to bet, there have been nefarious characters that have visited many times. My point was just because he visited DS or even the parks, does not mean that he was casing it for an attack. There is simply no proof, and there probably will not ever be proof that he "cased" them. And pinging a cell tower is NOT proof of his motivations.

I will absolutely agree that WDW is a target, and that TWDC is taking steps to help safeguard the property. But everyone must understand that there is simply no way to completely stop an attack of this kind. None.

 

[cslafferty]

Rational discussion is always better! But I still disagree. Millions of people visit WDW every year, and I'm willing to bet, there have been nefarious characters that have visited many times. My point was just because he visited DS or even the parks, does not mean that he was casing it for an attack. There is simply no proof, and there probably will not ever be proof that he "cased" them. And pinging a cell tower is NOT proof of his motivations.

I will absolutely agree that WDW is a target, and that TWDC is taking steps to help safeguard the property. But everyone must understand that there is simply no way to completely stop an attack of this kind. None.

Well, I've heard on several different news reports that his wife said he was scouting both DS and Pulse. She's saying she was trying to talk him out of it, but she's being investigated, and they haven't ruled out arresting her.

 

[SorcererMC]

Rational discussion is always better! But I still disagree. Millions of people visit WDW every year, and I'm willing to bet, there have been nefarious characters that have visited many times. My point was just because he visited DS or even the parks, does not mean that he was casing it for an attack. There is simply no proof, and there probably will not ever be proof that he "cased" them. And pinging a cell tower is NOT proof of his motivations.

I will absolutely agree that WDW is a target, and that TWDC is taking steps to help safeguard the property. But everyone must understand that there is simply no way to completely stop an attack of this kind. None.

Agreed, his presence is not 100% proof of his motivations (this is the number one most difficult aspect of identifying threats). I don't think it's reaching to suggest that in all likelihood, it's what he was doing since he did carry out an attack.

Agree that there is no way to completely stop an attack of this kind, that the risk - albeit small- should be mitigated as best as reasonably possible. To that end, the public does have to be willing to accept those safeguards (known and unknown) on some level, even when Disney says 'this is for your safety and security' without further explanation.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

At this point, how does his presence at Disney Springs equate to scouting?

he was wearing a woggle, pitched a tent and sang ging gang gooly.

 

[TaoBoxer]

You realize how ridiculous that would be, right?
You realize it wouldn't make anyone safer, but would totally destroy the whole point of vacation, right?
You do get how unworkable it would be under any circumstances, right?
You do realize that even if you did that, what would stop someone from attacking an entrance with security and metal detectors?

You do realize that WDW's business is destroyed with one mass casualty attack, even if its in the parking lot of one of DD's hotels, right?

You are never safe. Just a sad fact of life.

I read this 3 times. For some reason, it really hit home. I feel vulnerable for the first time in my life.

 

[SorcererMC]

Well, I've heard on several different news reports that his wife said he was scouting both DS and Pulse. She's saying she was trying to talk him out of it, but she's being investigated, and they haven't ruled out arresting her.

I really do hope that the (verifiable) facts come to light in a timely fashion, maybe after any arrests are made?

 

[scout68]

Ya know I usually agree with you but this is so off it's kinda sad.

What is a weapon of mass killing? You cla8m guns. That's nice, how about a Ford 150? A person hell bent on committing mass murder can just as easily plow thru a crowd and kill as many as this shooting, especially if the crowd was targeting and the driver had a plan. Let's ban Ford Trucks.

To ban such weapons now is pointless, there way too many. Have you seen the guns sales numbers in the past 8 years? So, you would have to confiscate guns from legal owners. That would sign the death warrant of the United Statea, it would literally split the country. You must not spend much time in flyover country.

Here is a Ruger 10/22 semi auto rifle, the amount of these out in the ol' US of A is likely in the 100,000s of thousands. We folk in Arkansas consider this a hunting gun for the likes of squirrel or varmints like rats.

Now, here is a Ruger SR 22

Those guns are the same, the internal mechanisms are the exact same, the only thing different is the the outward appearance or basically how they are dressed. While the wood stock version only holds 10 rounds out of the box, but...it will accept much larger clips like the evil looking one.

There are 100,000s of thousands of extra capacity clips out there, maybe more than actual gun. They were banned the last time and massed produced before the ban went in effect. Goodness knows how many have been made since the lapse.

What's really scary is how either one is turned fully out with a drimel.

Now, if DC wants to outlaw those, go ahead, like I said, the country is full of them and 100,000s of 1,000s of people have been hoarding .22 ammo as well. You would be insane to try and confiscate them, you'll have a full on modern day rebellion. You may not know the folks I know. So many of them are ex and even current military and they will not go along with that.

No matter which side of the gun debate you stand on; banning such weapons would certainly not be pointless.
Ineffective? Perhaps.

Pointless? Not even close.

 

[MississippiBelle]

I really do hope that the (verifiable) facts come to light in a timely fashion, maybe after any arrests are made?

Interesting information coming to light that the shooter himself may have been a closeted homosexual. Might this have been sparked by some kind of internal struggle on his part to justify his true self and the self that his religion/family/community forced him to be? PURE SPECULATION ALERT!! But it is something to think about. Everyone who knew him with the exception of his wife said that he showed no inclination towards radicalization, rather he had a lot of anger issues and violent tendencies and some closeted sexuality issues. In fact, there is information that he frequented Pulse and was a perfectly nice, albeit socially awkward person. The terror aspect could have been a cover up on his part. Again, purely speculation from me. It will be interesting to see how his back story unfolds as we learn more about possible motivations. We may never know the true reasons.

 

[ford91exploder]

Rational discussion is always better! But I still disagree. Millions of people visit WDW every year, and I'm willing to bet, there have been nefarious characters that have visited many times. My point was just because he visited DS or even the parks, does not mean that he was casing it for an attack. There is simply no proof, and there probably will not ever be proof that he "cased" them. And pinging a cell tower is NOT proof of his motivations.

I will absolutely agree that WDW is a target, and that TWDC is taking steps to help safeguard the property. But everyone must understand that there is simply no way to completely stop an attack of this kind. None.

There is NO way to stop an attack if the attacker is willing to die as part of the attack, The best you can do is mitigate the effect.

 

[rob0519]

Why the HELL was this guy NOT in Gitmo having his 'buddy list' sweated out of him, He was talking for MONTHS on how he was going to kill a bunch of people in the name of his so called god.

And right up there on the top of the list of despicable acts he abandoned his 3 year old son, Who right now is crying his eyes out because the daddy he idolized is not coming home, 3 year olds don't care about mythical moon gods their whole world is mommy and daddy.

For those who have read Dante's Inferno the lowest level of the hells is too good for this guy.

He was not in Gitmo or otherwise detained due to the lack of probable cause. Like it or not, Mateen was neither on a watch list nor detained due to the Constitution of the United States. It's not the first time lack of probable cause allowed a massive human tragedy to occur. See the article below.

From the Chicago Tribune:

"The fact is the FBI's ability to investigate any case is limited by the requirements of probable cause to open a full investigation, which stem from the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. Probable cause is a belief based upon articulable facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe an individual has committed, or intends to commit, a crime. It is the standard from which all coercive police powers stem in the United States. Without probable cause based on fact, the FBI cannot open a case, execute a search warrant, or take other appropriate law enforcement action. Both of Mateen's investigations were closed when the FBI determined that he had committed no crime, and had no verifiable intent to commit one in the future. That would have required an overt act on the part of Mateen. But he remained a person of interest to many who knew him, including co-workers and associates.

Lack of probable cause is an important factor. It was one element that prevented the FBI from connecting the dots of the 9/11 plot. Zacarias Moussaoui was reported as wanting to learn to fly a jumbo jet, but not wanting to learn to take off or land, alarming his instructors. These suspicions alone, however, were not enough to enable the FBI to obtain a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court search warrant of his computer, which might have turned up evidence of the plot.

 

[ford91exploder]

Have not been posting much as State/County Emergency management is now in overdrive and we've got drills scheduled from now to the end of time.

 

[SorcererMC]

Without probable cause based on fact, the FBI cannot open a case, execute a search warrant, or take other appropriate law enforcement action. Both of Mateen's investigations were closed when the FBI determined that he had committed no crime, and had no verifiable intent to commit one in the future.

This is why the homegrown extremist is threat is harder to prevent, and more of a concern to law enforcement...usually requires a well-placed informant to detect it, or someone willing to step forward.

 

[xdan0920]

One news report I heard on the radio noted that although the shooter may have been deterred from killing in the parks due to the security checks at the entrances, he would have seen a much larger target waiting to get through the security checks. Thus, the fallacy of so-called security at the parks. As many have stated on the older threads about security, there is no physical way that any amount of security could reasonably stop a large-scale attack at WDW - either inside the parks or outside the parks but on WDW property. Anyone who thinks that the security at park gates (or the TSA at airports, for that matter) are making you safer, you are just fooling yourself.

Just so I understand....

1. The security checkpoint stopped him from targeting WDW.

2. Security checkpoints don't work.

That makes sense.

 

[Jason Lives]

Megyn Kelly just tweeted https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/742879009055215616

"Reports now suggesting that Disney notified the FBI that Mateen & his wife may have been scouting the park back in April... more at 9p ET."

I can guarantee that he will not be the last Muslim Terrorist to do so.

 

[Andrew C]

Yep. It's definitely being reported as such now. Not 100% verified yet.

I'm sure we will get more details eventually.

 

[GhostHost1000]

I don't want to start a firestorm but I was just thinking about this. Remember when half the forums were going crazy about the nexgen Magic bands and Disney being able to track more information and locations on everyone in and around their resort.

Suddenly I'm feeling this isn't a bad thing considering all of the recent news

 

[Hula Popper]

You are so much more likely to die because someone is driving while drunk or distracted then you ever are from terrorism. That's a simple fact. The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction that can be obtained legally in this country, even when the FBI has interviewed the individual three times is something else.

Drunk driving fatalities in the U.S. in just 2014: 9,967 [edit - number looks to be probably more than 400,000 since 1982, see http://responsibility.org/wp-conten...e-of-Drunk-Driving-Fatalities-in-America.pdf]

Fatalities from Islamic Terrorism attacks (other than shootings) in the U.S. since 1982: at least 3,000 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States)

Fatalities from lighting strikes in the U.S since 1982: 1,676 (http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/fatalities.shtml)

Fatalities from dog bites in U.S. since 1982: estimate at least 750 (359 reported from 2005 through 2015, estimated average of 17 per year from 1982 through 2004 - http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities.php; https://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/all-dog-bite-statistics)

Fatalities from mass shooting events in the U.S. since 1982: 668 (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data)